Current Events > Did Vegeta deserve to... *DBZ spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I feel like it's so weird how Gohan snapped after seeing an Android programmed to kill his dad that I don't think he knew at all or even talked to once die, meanwhile Vegeta watching his son die isn't allowed to ascend lmao.

I guess at this point it's just a matter of him and Goku not actually being strong enough to turn SSJ2, and to not steal Gohan's spotlight, but Vegeta unlocking it here and killing Cell would've been kind of a hilarious way to end the arc. It'd be the only main villain kill Vegeta would have too. Fucking Krillin killed present timeline Cell. Let that sink in, Krillin has more main villain kills than Vegeta.

I still want to know how Trunks and Goten managed to achieve Super Saiyan as toddlers

No, he wasn't strong enough to go SSJ2 yet.

edit:

Now what TMOG brings up is something I agree with, I think it's pretty dumb that they could go SSJ.

TMOG posted...

I still want to know how Trunks and Goten managed to achieve Super Saiyan as toddlers

Generational knowledge I assume, Vegeta and Goku knew how to fast track them now that they know it well

Gohan was the first to turn SSJ2

no

tbh it's because at that point "SSj2" was really just going SSj while SSj, so it was basically a Gohan thing due to his rage boosts and having mastered super saiyan

He didn't deserve it but it would make an interesting what-if. SPC would've been fucked.

I still Generational knowledge I assume, Vegeta and Goku knew how to fast track them now that they know it well

No... Goten became a SSJ before he ever met Goku. The first time we see Trunks go SSJ, Vegeta is shocked so he didn't teach him either.

TMOG posted...

I still want to know how Trunks and Goten managed to achieve Super Saiyan as toddlers

There's the fan theory that once Goku/Vegeta unlocked SSJ, any kids they have after that just get it for free. I just think Toriyama did it cuz he clearly wanted the brats to do *something* and be relevant, can't do that if they're just stuck in base the whole arc.

Their power is honestly bullshit, even at the start of the Buu Saga they make 18 sweat at the world tournament. The same 18 that can one shot start of Android arc SSJs. Goten and Trunks could unironically one shot Android arc Goku and Vegeta.

goten and trunks would fold to everyone ssj and up in android arc

they did surprise 18

It would've been a disservice to his character development long-term. It would be rewarding him just for having to face the consequences of his own actions.

MC_BatCommander posted...

Generational knowledge I assume, Vegeta and Goku knew how to fast track them now that they know it well

Goku was dead and Vegeta was focused exclusively on his and Trunks' training, he didn't even know Trunks could go Super Saiyan until he saw it and at that point Trunks had apparently been doing it for a while. Nobody was training Goten except Chi-Chi, and Goten's transformation happened accidentally.

Also part of Super Saiyan is that you need to experience a great personal loss or crisis, on par with seeing your best friend blown up or your mentor murdered by cyborgs. Trunks and Goten grew up in a time of peace and were fairly pampered.

DarthEnvoy posted...

I just think Toriyama did it cuz he clearly wanted the brats to do *something* and be relevant,

Too bad they didn't and they weren't lol

Dungeater posted...

goten and trunks would fold to everyone ssj and up in android arc

they did surprise 18

Yeah I took that fight as 18 underestimating her goofy looking opponent and then being suprised when they weren't Mr Satan levels of weak. Once she figures out who it is, she ends the fight pretty quickly.

goten and trunks unlocked super saiyan because super saiyan was a joke at that point. applying rules to dbz won't work. toriyama doesnt write that way

It would have missed the entire plot for that to happen.
The climax of the arc was Gohan finally tapping into his potential and unleashing a power beyond anything the others were capable of, it was foreshadowed for ages.
Having Vegeta go SSJ2 and hijack the limelight would have ruined the entire sequence.

No, because that would have taken away from the idea that Trunks and Vegeta took the wrong approach in trying to reach ascended Super Saiyan. And Vegeta needed to pay for his arrogance anyway. They could have stopped Cell while he was still imperfect, but no.

mehmeh1 posted...

tbh it's because at that point "SSj2" was really just going SSj while SSj, so it was basically a Gohan thing due to his rage boosts and having mastered super saiyan

I still can't tell the difference visually between SSJ1 and 2

Letsago posted...

I still can't tell the difference visually between SSJ1 and 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vayRVov_NdI

Letsago posted...

I still can't tell the difference visually between SSJ1 and 2

2 has fewer bangs (sometimes)
spikier hair (sometimes)
lightning (even though other forms, including ssj1 have lightning sometimes)

in short, nothing

TMOG posted...

Too bad they didn't and they weren't lol

Eh, Gotenks was very relevant. It's just the kids were stupid, but he absolutely could've beaten Super Buu if he locked in.

Letsago posted...

I still can't tell the difference visually between SSJ1 and 2

Their hair gets more spikes and they have electricity effects around them. That's really the only visual differences.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/bfbb77fc.jpg

DarthEnvoy posted...

Eh, Gotenks was very relevant. It's just the kids were stupid, but he absolutely could've beaten Super Buu if he locked in.

Gotenks appeared, fought with Buu for a bit, then got eaten to make him stronger.

The Buu arc was basically a parade of new characters and transformations jobbing to the villain. None of the new power-ups, transformations, or fighters really mattered in the fight. Hell, if I remember correctly, Buu was defeated by a Spirit Bomb delivered by base form Goku, not even Super Saiyan 1.

spirit bomb isnt at all tied to goku's power, so creating it while ssj+ would be pointless. he needed his power restored to force it into kid buu with a kiai

but yeah basically no one matters in buu arc outside of Goku and mr satan

TMOG posted...

Gotenks appeared, fought with Buu for a bit, then got eaten to make him stronger.

The Buu arc was basically a parade of new characters and transformations jobbing to the villain. None of the new power-ups, transformations, or fighters really mattered in the fight. Hell, if I remember correctly, Buu was defeated by a Spirit Bomb delivered by base form Goku, not even Super Saiyan 1.

he went SSj1 at the very end to push the spirit bomb

TMOG posted...

Gotenks appeared, fought with Buu for a bit, then got eaten to make him stronger.

The Buu arc was basically a parade of new characters and transformations jobbing to the villain. None of the new power-ups, transformations, or fighters really mattered in the fight. Hell, if I remember correctly, Buu was defeated by a Spirit Bomb delivered by base form Goku, not even Super Saiyan 1.

Just because he didn't beat the villain doesn't mean he wasn't relevant lol. Also, Goku literally can't even use the spirit bomb while SSJ canonically since his heart gets filled with rage or whatever and prevents him from gathering the energy. I believe they mention it in Super, idk if it's actually said in Z.

DarthEnvoy posted...

Just because he didn't beat the villain doesn't mean he wasn't relevant lol.

Ok then what did he do

he occupied majin buu while gohans potential was unlocked

so gohan could then occupy Majin buu instead of going for the kill because he learned nothing from when he was 10

TMOG posted...

Ok then what did he do

He... fought Buu. I'm not sure what your idea of being relevant is when they literally contended with the main villain of the arc lol. Is everyone except for Gohan irrelevant in the Android arc? Is everyone except Goku irrelevant in Namek? etc etc.

Crazy part was Cell was trying to hit Tien Shinhan

DarthEnvoy posted...

He... fought Buu. I'm not sure what your idea of being relevant is when they literally contended with the main villain of the arc lol. Is everyone except for Gohan irrelevant in the Android arc? Is everyone except Goku irrelevant in Namek? etc etc.

What changes narratively if Gotenks doesn't fight Buu?

You're misconstruing my posts as "he's not relevant because he didn't defeat the main villain", and that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that Gotenks is irrelevant because he literally does not need to exist and does nothing to justify his presence in the arc.

It's like how Bulma didn't need to be part of the Namek arc. Everyone agrees with that, her presence there was completely unnecessary and irrelevant because she didn't do anything except hang out in a cave. But she was very relevant in the Androids/Cell arc despite not being a fighter because she contributed to the plot in other ways. Gotenks didn't even do that much.

TMOG posted...

What changes narratively if Gotenks doesn't fight Buu?

Gohan beats Buu.

AgentCoulson posted...

Gohan beats Buu.

That's the thing, Gotenks only existed to give Buu a powerup so he wouldn't lose to Gohan's new power level. This could have just been accomplished by having Gohan's new power level still not be enough to handle Buu, no absorption of Gotenks required.

Have him absorb someone else instead, like Piccolo.

TMOG posted...

I still want to know how Trunks and Goten managed to achieve Super Saiyan as toddlers

They explain that mixing Saiyan blood accelerates strength gain. I would also assume some form of epigenetics where having father's that have achieved SSJ made them get there even faster than Gohan.

TMOG posted...

What changes narratively if Gotenks doesn't fight Buu?

You're misconstruing my posts as "he's not relevant because he didn't defeat the main villain", and that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that Gotenks is irrelevant because he literally does not need to exist and does nothing to justify his presence in the arc.

Nothing changes really. But I think that's more of a symptom of Goku almost always being the one to save the day. Gotenks absolutely had enough power to demolish Buu. But he goofed around too much and they got absorbed.

TBH I'm not convinced Gotenks could've defeated Buu. Buu's regenerative abilities do seem to have a vast limit, Vegito probably could've killed Buu through raw force for instance (and Gohan definitely could've), but I'm not sure Gotenks was so dominant he could've done it. He was going tit-for-tat most of the fight rather than displaying real dominance of the magnitude he'd need to burn through Buu's regenerative reservoir.

Gohans schtick has always been latent ability. I think the show makes it pretty clear that he had that SSJ2 power already available deep down inside, he just needed to be pushed to reach it. Goku pretty much understood this as well

Vegeta always seems to be pretty tapped out at his limit for whatever strength level he is currently at. Watching Trunks get blasted definitely set him off, but I dont think he had any more latent potential in the tank to go SSJ2 at that time

DarthEnvoy posted...

I feel like it's so weird how Gohan snapped after seeing an Android programmed to kill his dad that I don't think he knew at all or even talked to once die

It's not that he cares about 16. Gohan has absolutely no reason to give a shit about 16 at that moment. What's significant about that death is that it's the moment things become "real" for him. Gohan finds out what Goku's plan is on the spot, has no faith in himself to actually follow through on it, and Cell's been beating his ass for minutes and minutes by that point. The Juniors are going around beating everyone else, things look really bad... and then 16 dies. He's the first actual death.

So now there's actual consequence, now it's real. If Gohan doesn't act at that exact moment, the people he does care about are next to die. So he lets go, and you know the rest.

Also gonna echo the sentiment that Vegeta doesn't "deserve" it based on his earlier actions in the arc. Fits better if he isn't "rewarded" at the 11th hour for something he just decided he cares about. Really, Vegeta doesn't "deserve" things until his arc later on with Buu, where he becomes a more complete person

Nah. It wasn't even his Trunks.

DarthEnvoy posted...

There's the fan theory that once Goku/Vegeta unlocked SSJ, any kids they have after that just get it for free. I just think Toriyama did it cuz he clearly wanted the brats to do *something* and be relevant, can't do that if they're just stuck in base the whole arc.

Was Trunks conceived before or after Vegeta first went SSJ? I thought it was before, but it's been a while, so I might be misremembering.

Trunks is shown as a 1 year old when Bulma shows up with him. The first Androids reveal themselves, the fight happens, Goku goes down with the virus, Vegeta shows up and reveals he has SSJ. You could maybe reason he got it very recently within that last year, but nothing's definitive. Could probably argue it either way

No...SSJ2 should have been a Gohan-exclusive form IMO. Gohan unlocks it and uses it to destroy Cell and saves the universe. End series.

On the subject of 16, it's bullshit that he wasn't resurrected with everyone else Cell killed.

People say it's different because he's a pure machine and not a cyborg, but in the very next arc we see 8 revived along with the population of Earth after the planet is wished back by the exact same set of Dragon Balls, and he's every bit as mechanical as 16 was.

TMOG posted...

That's the thing, Gotenks only existed to give Buu a powerup so he wouldn't lose to Gohan's new power level. This could have just been accomplished by having Gohan's new power level still not be enough to handle Buu, no absorption of Gotenks required.

Have him absorb someone else instead, like Piccolo.

not even lol Gohan was supposed to beat buu but toriyama decided he didn't want him as the main character so he had goku come back to fight buu

gotenks/trunks/goten and gohan were suppose to represnet the new gen taking over

that why story wise the buu saga is all over the place and it was comfirmed a few months ago that toriyama wanted to end at cell but SJ asked him to keep going but toriyama over agreed to it if he had less oversight

so the buu is just toriyama ideas bouncing around with no one to keep him in check

Dungeater posted...

goten and trunks would fold to everyone ssj and up in android arc

they did surprise 18

18 was scared of a holding back Trunks.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/124c1590.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/72712c92.jpghttps://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/8b2db42f.png
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/8b2db42f.png

Yeah, SSJ Goten also had SSJ Gohan at the start of the Buu Saga sweating during their training. I know he was weaker than at the Cell Games from slacking off, but he should still easily be far above start of Android Saga SSJ Goku/Vegeta. As much as I hate to admit it, the brats are strong.

TMOG posted...

On the subject of 16, it's bullshit that he wasn't resurrected with everyone else Cell killed.

People say it's different because he's a pure machine and not a cyborg, but in the very next arc we see 8 revived along with the population of Earth after the planet is wished back by the exact same set of Dragon Balls, and he's every bit as mechanical as 16 was.

Just like with everything else in the series, 8er only came back cause AT forgot he wasn't supposed to.

M1Astray posted...

TBH I'm not convinced Gotenks could've defeated Buu. Buu's regenerative abilities do seem to have a vast limit, Vegito probably could've killed Buu through raw force for instance (and Gohan definitely could've), but I'm not sure Gotenks was so dominant he could've done it. He was going tit-for-tat most of the fight rather than displaying real dominance of the magnitude he'd need to burn through Buu's regenerative reservoir.

When Gotenks got serious he beat the shit outta Buu. Goku even thought that Gohan wouldnt be needed.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/315f5cc1.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/399c9940.jpg

LinkDaLunatic posted...

Having Vegeta go SSJ2 and hijack the limelight would have ruined the entire sequence.

Counterpoint: Gohan having the limelight ruined the entire sequence, because Gohan is an irredeemably annoying pain in the ass.

Yes, it would have been narrative malpractice to just give the win to Vegeta out of nowhere. Yes, after all the buildup, it wouldnt have made sense for anybody besides Gohan to get the win. Gohan is still an irredeemably annoying pain in the ass.

TMOG posted...

I still want to know how Trunks and Goten managed to achieve Super Saiyan as toddlers

They felt the back tingle