Current Events > So I'm rewatching Cell Saga DBZ and have concluded...time travel is bs

(+) Yeah! (+)

Spoilers below

So the main Cell from the show killed a completely alternate timeline Trunks to come back to absorb 17 and 18? How was he able to kill Trunks so easily in his base form? Why was this Trunks going back to the past in the first place? Did he beat 17 and 18? If he did I would imagine he would be strong enough to fend off Cell.

And speaking of which, why were the main 17 and 18 so much stronger? It was never explained...

Surely there would be an unlimited number of Trunks and Cells out there if 3 can exist? Why didn't more come back to the past?

bs!

im_not_13 posted...

So the main Cell from the show killed a completely alternate timeline Trunks to come back to absorb 17 and 18? How was he able to kill Trunks so easily in his base form?

That Trunks wasn't as powerful as the Future Trunks we know. Probably because they never needed to fight cell (if I'm remembering correctly?) in their timeline in his super perfect form.

im_not_13 posted...

Did he beat 17 and 18? If he did I would imagine he would be strong enough to fend off Cell.

He was probably stronger than the weaker 17 and 18, but thats not saying much since they were nothing compared to the people in the current timeline we have. So that Cell was probably able to overpower Trunks in his base form with a sneak attack.

im_not_13 posted...

And speaking of which, why were the main 17 and 18 so much stronger? It was never explained...

Because Trunks fucked with the timeline. That's why 19 and 20 (Dr Gero) were there. And why 16 was a thing.

im_not_13 posted...

Surely there would be an unlimited number of Trunks and Cells out there if 3 can exist? Why didn't more come back to the past?

Because they all have their own timelines. Wouldn't make sense if two Trunks went to one timeline. Probably an infinite amount of branches where each one goes to its own multiple timeline.

Split time lines.
T1: Goku dies, the Androids kills 98% of Earth's population for lulz. Trunks goes back in time, creating T2.
T2: Goku gets medicine, survives, they train, the Androids appears, they are defeated, they find Geros HQ, they find the turn off switch, Trunks brings it to the Future, turns off the androids, destroys the remains. Cell wakes up, sees that the androids are dead, kills Trunks when he is on his way back to the past to tell his past friends that things are alright, goes back in time before T2 is created, creates T3.
T3: Starts as T2. Trunks returns, Goku survives, they train to defeat the androids. Suddenly Cell appears and we got the Cell Saga. Cell is defeated, a stronger Trunks returns back to where he left, destroys the androids by power, then kills Cell before Cell can go back.

And future 17 and 18 are stronger because their reactors gives a permanent boost the longer they are alive, which is why they are stronger in Super compared to Z.

Foppe posted...

And future 17 and 18 are stronger because their reactors gives a permanent boost the longer they are alive, which is why they are stronger in Super compared to Z.

Wait what? When was this stated? Maybe in some media I haven't consumed yet?

The timeline issue gets revisited in Dragon Ball Super.

I'll try to answer this from what I've read over the years...

In the universe Cell came from, Goku died from the heart virus. 17 and 18 were created, and killed everyone but Gohan. Trunks grew up in this ruined world under constant android threat. Ultimately Gohan succumbed to them as well, then Trunks became a Super Saiyan. He tried fighting the androids as well but got nowhere. Bulma then created the time machine, and Trunks traveled into the past to give Goku the medicine, and warn them about "the androids". He returned home, but later returned to the past. Here past Bulma re-created Gero's shutdown device. They used it on 17 and 18, and destroyed them. Trunks went home and used the device on his own 17 and 18 destroying them as well. Cell emerged and began absorbing humans. He then realized 17 and 18 were gone and came across Trunks as he was about to travel to the past to tell the others of his success. Cell caught Trunks off guard and broke his neck. He entered the time machine and traveled to the pre-set coordinates which happened to be around the same time Trunks traveled back the first time... which is odd.

Anyway the point is there are various Trunks and Cells from different timelines. It's because of Trunks coming to the past in the first place that results in 19 being built and Gero converting himself into 20. As Trunks later remarks the 17 and 18 of the past are stronger than his, but as we wind up seeing their behavior and goals are very different. Probably as Gero was so busy doing other things he didn't complete them as his counterpart from Trunks' timeline had, and as a result they weren't merciless killing machines.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Wait what? When was this stated? Maybe in some media I haven't consumed yet?

Wasn't that the reason he was picked in the Tournament of Power?

Toryiama was making this up as he went along while being berated by his editor.

Watching people try to explain how it makes sense instead of saying "Just roll with it" has always been crazy to me.

May as well discuss how little Timmy's "Everything Proof Shield" makes canonical sense while playing with his friends.

Airhammy posted...

In the universe Cell came from, Goku died from the heart virus. 17 and 18 were created, and killed everyone but Gohan. Trunks grew up in this ruined world under constant android threat. Ultimately Gohan succumbed to them as well, then Trunks became a Super Saiyan. He tried fighting the androids as well but got nowhere. Bulma then created the time machine, and Trunks traveled into the past to give Goku the medicine, and warn them about "the androids". He returned home, but later returned to the past. Here past Bulma re-created Gero's shutdown device. They used it on 17 and 18, and destroyed them. Trunks went home and used the device on his own 17 and 18 destroying them as well. Cell emerged and began absorbing humans. He then realized 17 and 18 were gone and came across Trunks as he was about to travel to the past to tell the others of his success. Cell caught Trunks off guard and broke his neck. He entered the time machine and traveled to the pre-set coordinates which happened to be around the same time Trunks traveled back the first time... which is odd.

But what you are describing is T1 Trunks that has gone through Goku and Gohans death. He didn't need a device to kill 18 and 17. He used his op powers from all the training.

sneak attack from what i remember from team fourstar or the show

SpiritSephiroth posted...

Wait what? When was this stated? Maybe in some media I haven't consumed yet?

He made that up.

im_not_13 posted...

But what you are describing is T1 Trunks that has gone through Goku and Gohans death. He didn't need a device to kill 18 and 17. He used his op powers from all the training.

In those timelines they didn't use the hyperbolic time chamber.

In the Z timeline they did which made Trunks more powerful than the androids and Cell in his timeline.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Toryiama was making this up as he went along while being berated by his editor.

Watching people try to explain how it makes sense instead of saying "Just roll with it" has always been crazy to me.

May as well discuss how little Timmy's "Everything Proof Shield" makes canonical sense while playing with his friends.

This. Toryiama was going to make 19 and 20 the main antagonist until the editor said no to having a old man and a clown be the big bad of the saga. Then 17 and 18 were meant to take their place but the editor said no to generic teenagers being the main villain. So Cell is introduced and editor says he's to ugly, them semi perfect Cell but still to ugly then perfect Cell was good enough.

im_not_13 posted...

How was he able to kill Trunks so easily in his base form?

Dragon ball power scaling is often inconsistent madness, no matter the version. He supposedly got the jump on him and choked him out.

Besides trying to apply logic to this era of dbz is madness. AT was writing by the seat of his pants since his former editor hated the first 2 arc villains (19/20 and 17/18) and his at the time current editor hated the first 2 forms of cell. So the beginning of the arc is writen as if 19/20 are the villains. Then a sudden shift to 17/18 (so now those 2 are somehow much stronger then the newer models and much stronger then the original ones in trunks time line and don't need to drain energy). Then a sudden shift to cell who for whatever reason needs to absorb 17/18 despite being stronger then everyone.

Tsukasa1891 posted...

This. Toryiama was going to make 19 and 20 the main antagonist until the editor said no to having a old man and a clown be the big bad of the saga. Then 17 and 18 were meant to take their place but the editor said no to generic teenagers being the main villain. So Cell is introduced and editor says he's to ugly, them semi perfect Cell but still to ugly then perfect Cell was good enough.

The funniest part is rejection of 19/20 and 17/18 wasnt even by his editor at the time. It was criticism by a former editor that he stayed in touch with. The cells on the other hand were by his editor at the time. Supposedly Toriyama really liked semi perfect and he was supposed to stay around longer

this is why time travel is outlawed

yet Whis don't give a fuck and lets them do it anyways

Toriyama was at his best when he had others looking over his shoulder and not allowed to do everything he wanted. Cell saga is a classic because of editorial interference. In comparison, look at how Daima is when he had full control.

chaos_knight posted...

look at how Daima is when he had full control.

upset that guns hurt Goku?

Isn't this whole thing a rip off of The Terminator?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/904426fd.jpg

chaos_knight posted...

Toriyama was at his best when he had others looking over his shoulder and not allowed to do everything he wanted. Cell saga is a classic because of editorial interference. In comparison, look at how Daima is when he had full control.

The cell saga is a classic as long as you ignore everything that led up to cell and don't ask questions about the gaping logic holes.

I'm being serious too. The overall result and where the road leads is great. But everything at the start is just a gigantic mess that often contradicts itself

Goldice posted...

The overall result and where the road leads is great. But everything at the start is just a gigantic mess that often contradicts itself

I actually feel quite the opposite. Everything up to Cells reveal was some of the best episodes of the show. The whole mystery behind the androids was more exciting then the actual androids imo.

Goldice posted...

The cell saga is a classic as long as you ignore everything that led up to cell and don't ask questions about the gaping logic holes.

I'm being serious too. The overall result and where the road leads is great. But everything at the start is just a gigantic mess that often contradicts itself

People that closely scrutinize stuff made by Toriyama live such impoverished lives. The man gave absolutely no fucks about any previous rules he made or implied by anything that happened earlier in the manga. The way tail grabbing immobilizing saiyans gets instantly hand waved away is a perfect example. DBZ kicks so much ass but acting like its based on a world where minute calculations of power interactions mean anything is something everyone should have learned not to do by now.

It gets even stupider in Dragon Ball Super.

Cell easily got strong enough to kill Trunks just from biding his time and absorbing tons of humans. It's what he did in the main timeline before getting strong enough to wreck Android 17.

Wasn't Cell only weak when he first appeared in the main timeline because he had to revert to a larva in order to fit inside the time machine? He powered up pretty quickly after he started absorbing humans.

SomeUsername529 posted...

People that closely scrutinize stuff made by Toriyama live such impoverished lives. The man gave absolutely no fucks about any previous rules he made or implied by anything that happened earlier in the manga. The way tail grabbing immobilizing saiyans gets instantly hand waved away is a perfect example. DBZ kicks so much ass but acting like its based on a world where minute calculations of power interactions mean anything is something everyone should have learned not to do by now.

Oh yeah Toriyama definitely didn't care about consistency. And was more than happy to pull out some new plot machina to increase a characters strength. Even namek had the bullshit zenkai boost for saiyans in order to quickly scale their strength when necessary. So paying attention to minute details or power scaling will just make you laugh.

I more just mean even from a basic plot standpoint the android/ cell saga is an absolute mess until it finally settled on Cell being the arc villain. Simply because it was changing arc villains like it was going out of style. Like the saiyan and namek stuff is citizen Kane in comparison.

Yet it still probably makes more sense then the buu saga...(ok so fat buu was actually a result of super buu absorbing a kai... who was a result of kid buu absorbing a kai... yet fat buu created old buu when he got very angry... who absorbed fat buu to become super buu... who became kid buu after fat buu was removed by vegita... who got unfused from goku after absorption despite wearing the perma fuse earrings... so now kid buu and fat buu are two separate entities... but kid buu is the original one... except not since he was originally old buu...wait what).

Still love it though. But yeah, don't poke at it too much or think about it too much. Toryiama didn't.

Goldice posted...

Supposedly Toriyama really liked semi perfect and he was supposed to stay around longer

I thought Imperfect Cell looked best.

Goldice posted...

(ok so fat buu was actually a result of super buu absorbing a kai... who was a result of kid buu absorbing a kai... yet fat buu created old buu when he got very angry... who absorbed fat buu to become super buu... who became kid buu after fat buu was removed by vegita... who got unfused from goku after absorption despite wearing the perma fuse earrings... so now kid buu and fat buu are two separate entities... but kid buu is the original one... except not since he was originally old buu...wait what).

Minor quibble "well ackshully" but the Super Buu we get from Evil Buu absorbing Fat Buu isn't the super-roided Super Buu that resulted from Kid Buu absorbing a Kai. It's still a confusing mess but it's not a complete paradox.

Either way like all of DB it's ultimately a case of "eh, just roll with it and turn the brain off". Buu's a sentient ball of magic regenerating bubble gum (strawberry flavor probably). Forming multiple egos is the least insane thing Buu did anyway lol.

SomeUsername529 posted...

People that closely scrutinize stuff made by Toriyama live such impoverished lives. The man gave absolutely no fucks about any previous rules he made or implied by anything that happened earlier in the manga. The way tail grabbing immobilizing saiyans gets instantly hand waved away is a perfect example. DBZ kicks so much ass but acting like its based on a world where minute calculations of power interactions mean anything is something everyone should have learned not to do by now.

To be fair Nappa and Vegita being immune to having their tail grabbed wasn't a ass pull. Goku over came that weakness in the original dragon ball. It was explained in his fight with Krillin at the martial arts tournament after Krillin grabbed Goku's tail. But maybe I'm giving Toriyama to much credit and he didn't remember Goku trained to over come being weakened by having his tail grabbed.

M1Astray posted...

Minor quibble "well ackshully" but the Super Buu we get from Evil Buu absorbing Fat Buu isn't the super-roided Super Buu that resulted from Kid Buu absorbing a Kai. It's still a confusing mess but it's not a complete paradox.

Huh. Didn't realize that. That's on me then.

Either way like all of DB it's ultimately a case of "eh, just roll with it and turn the brain off". Buu's a sentient ball of magic regenerating bubble gum (strawberry flavor probably). Forming multiple egos is the least insane thing Buu did anyway lol.

Agreed.

Wasn't it explained it wasn't really time travel?

Future Trunks was another universe Trunks.

asdf8562 posted...

Wasn't it explained it wasn't really time travel?

Future Trunks was another universe Trunks.

No. It was definitely time travel. So much so that Beerus and Whis actually tried to forbid Bulma from recreating the means to do it again as it was against the rules made by Grand Zeno.

asdf8562 posted...

Wasn't it explained it wasn't really time travel?

Future Trunks was another universe Trunks.

It's MCU time travel instead of Back to the Future time travel. A change in the past branches the timeline, effectively creating a new universe, and doesn't prevent you from returning to your original timeline that isn't impacted by the change.

MLBloomy posted...

It's MCU time travel instead of Back to the Future time travel. A change in the past branches the timeline, effectively creating a new universe, and doesn't prevent you from returning to your original timeline that isn't impacted by the change.

That's exactly what I was saying though. It's a different universe Trunks.

If Trunks is jumping to a universe where xyz didn't happen and can't possibly happen, it's not actually pure time travel anymore. As one is jumping into another universe and messing with that universe.

asdf8562 posted...

That's exactly what I was saying though. It's a different universe Trunks.

If Trunks is jumping to a universe where xyz didn't happen and can't possibly happen, it's not actually pure time travel anymore. As one is jumping into another universe and messing with that universe.

I think you got the concept mixed up. It's the same universe but a different timeline.

DBS already introduced the multiverse and that's something totally different.

Did cell have the ss2 gene? I was under the impression he did not because in Dr. Gero's future nobody had gone ss2 yet.

There's 4 timelines going on as a result of all this

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/1005993c.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/00ce69c9.jpg
The Trunks that Cell kills in the future was already time traveling to a different past. We don't talk about that different past.

Oh might be nice to discuss some DBZ here instead of on the boards where Scotty and his alts muck up every thread.

Ill take these in order.

im_not_13 posted...

So the main Cell from the show killed a completely alternate timeline Trunks to come back to absorb 17 and 18?

Technically it was Cell from Trunk's alternate timeline. Main Timeline Cell was still a cicada in a jar that Krillin killed. (Yep, Krillin killed Cell AND did more damage to Frieza on Namek than Vegeta. That's my dog.)

How was he able to kill Trunks so easily in his base form?

Because Imperfect Cell was far more powerful than a SSJ1. Remember, when Piccolo fused with Kami he jumped beyond Goku and Vegeta, becoming (briefly) the most powerful Z-fighter, and he was only able to fend Cell off, even getting one arm damaged in the process.

Cell retreated only because he wasn't at full strength and backup arrived for Piccolo. Then he went on an absorbing spree, and the next time you saw him he was far beyond Piccolo even without the androids.

Why was this Trunks going back to the past in the first place? Did he beat 17 and 18?

Yes, that alternate Trunks was coming back to tell Goku that he had defeated the androids in the future (the weaker ones) so Cell would have still been far beyond his capabilities.

If he did I would imagine he would be strong enough to fend off Cell.

No, the androids were weaker in Trunk's future. Cell was on a whole other level.

And speaking of which, why were the main 17 and 18 so much stronger? It was never explained...

I don't think it was ever actually explained why they were stronger. There may have been a line about hand-wavey, "timey-wimey!" shenanigans that I'm forgetting.

Surely there would be an unlimited number of Trunks and Cells out there if 3 can exist? Why didn't more come back to the past?

Because the series is already 300 episodes long, and we're moving on. Oh look, a pink guy.

Also, there probably were many more alternate Trunks going to many alternate timelines, but since they're other timelines, we never saw them, just this one.

SpiritSephiroth posted...

I think you got the concept mixed up. It's the same universe but a different timeline.

DBS already introduced the multiverse and that's something totally different.

I don't have the concepts mixed up. My issue is DB itself and it's attempt at the concept.

A different timeline is still an introduction to a brand new universe. To call it "time travel" and time travel alone in concept doesn't track since its hopping over to a universe where alternative events happened. The universes or timelines operate independently from one another. Even their history is different in their simultaneous existence.

Especially when factoring how vastly different a universe can become with the butterfly effect, the farther you go back. In theory, we could talk about a timeline with humans never evolving to become a thing, and dinosaurs still roaming around in 2025. Or a timeline where some advanced elephants species evolved to be the dominate intelligent special ruling the planet.

In theory all of those timelines can exist since different events played out, but the concept itself is no different than a different universe. It's certainly wouldn't be the same universe we are in given these hypothetical scenarios have a vastly different history than our own that independent to our history.

mybbqrules posted...

I don't think it was ever actually explained why they were stronger. There may have been a line about hand-wavey, "timey-wimey!" shenanigans that I'm forgetting.

I don't think we should look at the Super Saiyan form as a progression in steps, but rather like a gradient. SS Trunks lost because he was a base line SS, future Gohan about the same level. After a year of training, he would be "close" to SS2, which was stronger than the Androids (who we should assume had a constant power level since they were largely artificial).

TMOG posted...

Wasn't Cell only weak when he first appeared in the main timeline because he had to revert to a larva in order to fit inside the time machine? He powered up pretty quickly after he started absorbing humans.

Dragon Ball fans cant read.

https://youtu.be/OAK3Tlw074I?si=VLwRL1tRsMI65gyq

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/34f7c574.png

This cant be right...Cell kill Trunks as he was going to warn the team not after they were beaten...plus he had coordinates for timeline 4...did Cell set them himself? Why would he select a random timeline that happens to be the shows timeline

im_not_13 posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/34f7c574.png

This cant be right...Cell kill Trunks as he was going to warn the team not after they were beaten...plus he had coordinates for timeline 4...did Cell set them himself? Why would he select a random timeline that happens to be the shows timeline

Trunks gets killed by Cell after he deactivated the Androids in his timeline. This is a 3rd timeline we're only shown a part of, the Trunks that Cell kills was heading back to a 4th timeline we've never seen were they beat the Androids by deactivating them.

The only reason Cell ends up in the timeline we see is because the plot demands it

Foppe posted...

And future 17 and 18 are stronger because their reactors gives a permanent boost the longer they are alive, which is why they are stronger in Super compared to Z.

Nope. Trunks states that the present Androids are stronger than the ones he knows.

The 4 timelines make sense if you go with the fact that there is ever only 1 past no matter what. Go by the picture posted above in order as timeline 1-4. Super actually fixes something that is NOT a retcon for once (at least IMO)

Timeline 1 is when Trunks goes back a second time, like he always does, except they kill Gero, grab the remote and deactive the androids in Timeline one. We never see this timeline, nor do we ever see timeline 2. Timeline 1 trunks is now connected to this past, just like Timeline 3 Trunks is connected to Timeline 4. We never see this timeline on screen.

Timeline 2, which we never see as well, is the one where Trunks goes back the 2nd time, helps kill Gero, 17 and 18 never get activated. Trunks goes back to his proper timeline and uses the remote on the androids, thus disabling them and destroying them. This timeline's cell is never seen from at all, nor is it ever mentioned. Its very likely that since goku (he lives due to Trunk's giving him the cure) and the z fighters are still alive in this timeline, they band together and kill him without too much trouble.

Timeline 3: Future Trunks Special Timeline. Goes the way we know it does.

Timeline 4: The Timeine we see as the "Main Timeline". The Cell from timeline 1 comes back to this timeline.

Now, this all sounds like it makes sense. Timeline 1 Trunks creates timeline 2. Timeline 3 Trunks creates timeline 4. Except we have no idea how timeline 3 gets created.

Super tries to explain this that there are 5 time rings (4 green plus 1 silver, plus the one that Trunks has now created in super to make the 6th at the end). The green rings indicate a new timeline was created. Gowasu explains that the supreme kai of universe 10 went back in time before he was promoted, which likely means that Timeline 3 is actually timeline 2, greated by universe 10's Supreme kai at some unkown point in the past. This make sense that since trunks goes back to the "Theroetical" Exact same time in the past, thus 2 new timelines were created at this time instead of just 1. Timeline 3, which is the one that, prior to super, is actually timeline 2 as per the picture, and timeline 4, which is the one that we the viewers see the entire way through.

Time travel is always bs.

Being able to perfectly counter any move your opponent makes is basically unbeatable.