Current Events > Goku once again proved to be not immune to low level laser gun

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dragonball seems to go back and forth on whether or not guns are a threat to the main characters

Dragonball seems to go back and forth on whether or not guns are a threat to the main characters

Power creep has always been a part of Dragon Ball. Severely nerfing the characters by making them children was stupid from the beginning, as that isn't what the audience wants. Toriyama was kind of a hack when he didn't have editors forcing changes

Power creep has always been a part of Dragon Ball. Severely nerfing the characters by making them children was stupid from the beginning, as that isn't what the audience wants. Toriyama was kind of a hack when he didn't have editors forcing changes

I'm interested to see where DragonBall goes from here, now that any new material will not be made by Toriyama.

So farmer with a shotgun could legitimately be a threat? Or does it have to be a laser gun?

How does Goku keep getting turned into a kid? XD

Toriyama must have like DB the best and didn't enjoy Goku as a man as much

You can tell by the massive tonal shift, and the big retcon about Goku's origin, that he originally never intended to make Z. He probably was asked by Shonen Jump to keep going, when he reached the end of the original DragonBall story

Please note that those lasers are used to target demon realm citizens which are clearly powerfult then humans also there is a human ( bulma) with them and if she's stuck by a laser like that she won't survive that and it can't be risked so complaining about that just doesn't makes sense. Also Goku and the others aren't even at their full strength probably less then half of it and the environment also makes it difficult for them to fight so them being scared of these lasers and bullets is pretty reasonable. If you remember that episode in super in which Goku says that he's become rusty and then transports himself to zeno's palace he was also struck by a bullet ( he was suffering some sorta problem using his basic powers after using blue kaioken too much) which tells us that saiyans are vulnerable to these things if theory guard is lowered or they are not at full strength. Hope it helps

How does Goku keep getting turned into a kid? XD

I have been a pretty staunch Daima defender up until this point but the I really haven't been enjoying the last couple of episodes. I really do love adventure and comedy etc first, OG Dragonball is my favorite. That said there are issues here that extend beyond that facade we're seeing here. Namely with the fundamental structure of the events unfolding here - the script at a higher level.
There are some narrative fundamentals being ignored for the sake of mindless candy action here. It was animated well and I just didn't care. There was never any chance these goons would pose a threat or hurt any of our heroes. Daima has already shown us they aren't really that much weaker at all as children multiple times and yet suddenly they're on the back foot? Why aren't they transforming if it's a struggle for them?
The issue with this is there is ZERO tension. I was so bored. What a waste of time. There have been so many interesting plot points set up early on in the series that it really felt like they could have done a multitude of things to get our gang in a pinch here but they instead give us what essentially feels like filler in a show that's only 20 episodes long.
Please understand if you are enjoying this thats fine and just walk away, ignore this,. But I felt so disheartened this episode I had to come and discuss it. This episode in particular feels inconsistent with the rest of the show from a writing perspective. Did they change writers at this point for whatever reason? I really want to understand why this happened the way it did. Absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.
Also, final note and tangential to my main point but I don't appreciate people saying "eeugh you're not a real Dragonball fan if you dont like thisss" shut up man. Anyone who gatekeeps like that is a child. Criticism is healthy and an unwillingness to speak up and challenge things is probably how we found ourselves with this episode, Japanese culture being what it is. I personally love hearing what people like and don't like. We are expressing opinions like this because we LOVE Dragonball and want to see it flourish.
Narrative slop like this just won't do that I'm afraid. Dragonball deserves better.

This is probably the most frustrating episode, I've ever seen.
JUST TRANSFORM ALREADY!!! That was my thought, throughout the entire episode.
Both Vegeta and Goku turns to Super Saiyan and end all of it, instantly. Why the hell, were both of them, fighting in their base form?! And don't give me that "To conserve stamina" nonsense. Vegeta ate Revive-bug, so his stamina should be good enough. Yeah, I know Goku transformed at the end there, but it could've done way sooner and ended the fight already. It's all just bunch of goon soldiers. There's no reason, they should have that much trouble in the first place.

People say "just transform already" but forget Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo are much faster than the speed of light and even in their base forms, extremely strong.
Imo the whole point that they are children falls flat because Goku when he was way weaker and also still a kid, solo'd the Red Ribbon Army. He's now much more experience, much faster and much stronger. It's incomparable. I don't believe for a second that they couldn't have whooped the kraken, the giant, or each soldier on screen here today in base form, as kids, easily. SSJ1 maybe for the boosted Tamagami.
I get that they're trying to make the other character have something to do - finally I might add, but wrong characters because where are Tien etc? - but it all falls flat. It's all fake suspense, 0 stakes, painfully slow and the main 3 fighters here have been nerfed painfully much. More than being made into children should have. I bet Goten and Trunks are way stronger than their fathers here.
Utterly frustrating to watch. I get that they won't just fire a beam through the street and kill all the soldiers, but they could have taken them all out in a few seconds with how fast they are. Goku is first seen struggling to dodge the shots, later on he deflects them with the power pole. The king even blocks one.
They could also have easily destroyed those tanks before they ever got close to firing any shots. The main crew could easily wipe planets off the universal map before SSJ1 was even remotely a thing. You're telling me they struggle against a couple of bozos and some tanks? Please...
I tried to suspend my disbelief, but I would have to kill it at this point. It's not yet as jarring as non-SSJ Broly somehow beating God-level characters, but man it's close.
Also, still no Towa. The one potential saving grace this thing could have and she's not here. I enjoyed the chill vibes at first, but moments like this whole episode was chockfull with are just too frustrating to be able to enjoy it anymore. I also feel like they won't address the myriad important plot points they've thrown in along the way. It feels like a whole bunch of nothing. I guess junkfood could be a good descriptor - and not my kind of junkfood. Sad. Tbh it had some potential and had fun moments. Still possible, but very unlikely now.

Goku:
Defeats Radditz, Vegeta, and Nappa, interplanetary assassins.
Defeats Frieza, the galaxy emperor.
Defeats Cell (almost), infinite power perfect android.
Defeats Majin Boo, a super powerful, destroyer of planets, slayer of kaiohs, million-year-old demon.
With his new kid body, he easily defeats Tamagami #3, the ultra-powerful guardian not even Dabura could.
Loses to a policeman with a tank. Nice

what im gathering is it was a full force attack and they had an army to deal with. and i dont think the guns hurting them had to with the actual power of them i think it had to do with the effects the rays have on their body especially with them being kids like goku pointed out. tbf theyre in the demon realm and things are different and we dont know how the guns work but we know that they have incapacitating effects not just lethal. everything is fair game as much as it might feel like a cop out. they were also busy trying to protect bulma and the others who cant fight and with rays flying from hundreds of directions its easy for one hit and it would be over. always remember that things are happening faster than its being shown. those rays are probably moving faster than they look
above all else theyre obviously trying to limit casualties too not just go and kill them all, its like when gohan took out friezas army. frieza said he could wipe out an army in an instant if he wanted to but was holding back
still, clearly if even one of them turned super saiyan to begin with, which to me is weird and they shouldnt even have to considering the tamagamis are all around close to the level of super perfect cell level, theyd have had less trouble. that and the exposition dump are a little frustrating. this should been a 30-40 episode series if they wanted have episodes like this. but well see how the rest turns out

They beat tamagamis which Dabura couldnt touch. Even if the rays magically affect them they should still be fast enough to dodge every shot. They cant be omnipotent against tamagamis but then scared and almost dying against random grunt attacks

It's inconsistent and not good writing, but don't think too hard about it. Toriyama doesn't. I don't mean that as an insult, that's just the way he was.

Also, Goku has seemingly forgotten how to teleport in Daima

Spoilers for the most recent episode:

Im watching this and am left wondering At what point in DB/DBZ should Goku have been able to handle this army attack? When he took down the Red Ribbon Army? 23rd Budokai?

I could buy into the fact that Goku & co. cant sense the guns because they dont have a living ki. I could buy into the fact that these guns can hurt them. But Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Kaioshin can move at speeds that normal grunts cannot see. And they can shoot ki blasts that could wipe out all of them in less than a second - precision blasts that take out each individual, since they wouldnt wanna just nuke an area with innocents. This shouldnt be a problem in the slightest, and they certainly shouldnt to be rescued.

Also, Goku has seemingly forgotten how to teleport in Daima.

So has Goku gone Ultra Super Saiyan 4 Instinct Kaioken x1,000,000,000 yet?

In fairness to Toriyama, Dragonball clearly went from a passion project early on to sheer work with hard deadlines and pressure to keep continuing the series. It's startling to see his manga notes from early Dragonball that are optimistic and cheerful to later on where he's noting how stressful and brutal his workday his, as well as how it's affecting his health. As a kid you read those and think nothing of it, but as an adult, it's like damn, that's actually pretty terrible.

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You should treat Goku not as Superman but as a guy who is really good at martial arts to be quite frank

yes he can use ki to make an energy shield that should be able to stop bullets but he is again not Superman

I think the community has tried to paint Goku as better than Superman too much they really deluded themselves on what actually goes on in the actual pages of this mythos

is this to say he was too stressed to realize that fans are upset anytime he lets a gun hurt Goku?

He is exponentially stronger than someone who can blow up a planet at this point. His weaker forms are stronger than gods.

False. Can he fight using martial arts and ki to enter a state like that? Yes. But he generally is not.
That is why a gun hurts him and has hurt him multiple times across series written and overseen by Toriyama himself.

Superman can be sniped unawares and it cannot harm him. That is just him generally at base no ki generation or powerups

He also passively would see the bullet and be faster than it

Goku is not. Goku has to be mindful and force his body into that speed as it is a martial art

Superman has to be mindful and force himself to be slower to not kill everyone arounf him

I previously said in my post that Im fine with Goku taking damage for guns, so I think your argument here is meant for someone else. The whole Goku needs to be aware of an attack thing was proven back in the wait for the Cell Games, when Kuririn hurt him by throwing a rock at him.

But the part about Goku being strong enough to take out gods and planet killers is valid with my part where I said he should be taking out the grunts with no problem. He is actively using his ki at this time.

Yeah Daima is being really bad at creating tension, which is a product of bad writing. Overall it's been a fun ride. Him actually being incapacitated by this episodes gun is actually plausible, because that's apparently its entire use. So if it can do that to Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo for at least a few seconds it probably does wonders to people of the demon realm who oppose leadership.

It was the base form Goku stronger than gods. Base form is him lounging around not having screamed ahhhhhhh to build up ki.

Yeah Daima is being really bad at creating tension, which is a product of bad writing. Overall it's been a fun ride. Him actually being incapacitated by this episodes gun is actually plausible, because that's apparently its entire use. So if it can do that to Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo for at least a few seconds it probably does wonders to people of the demon realm who oppose leadership.

What doesn't make sense is that Goku went Super Saiyan at the end and was easily dispatching everything around him.

It's all just a product of unable to produce tension under reasonable means so it's just dumb/bad writing.

And he has access to that form.

not in daima

it takes place before super

daima seems to be a separate universe from super

not in daima

it takes place before super

what

no it is not

why would you even say this?

it literally is expanding on Super lore

yet it contradicts super even the cameo of other universe kais does not match established lore