Board 8 > Time Travelers Mafia Topic 4: _ Days Since Our Last Paradox

(+) Yeah! (+)

Blade i don't remember being the type that takes his ball and goes home.

Is there a list of any actual claims made this game? I mean, non-nonsense day 1 ones?

I'm vanilla Ulti is backup and Blade is Phil Connors a guy with a weird voting gimmick and literally nothing else because Blade so deftfully broke the role

Er deftly

I didn't specify which logic I was referring to. Interesting conclusion there.

The fact that you didn't specify which logic you disagreed with is the reason I personally found it suspicious.

Scum loves vagueness in general. With as little as you've actually contributed this game I would want to be as specific as possible, maximize your contribution per word rather than putting out fluff.

Lopen posted...

I'm vanilla Ulti is backup and Blade is Phil Connors a guy with a weird voting gimmick and literally nothing else because Blade so deftfully broke the role

Hold up. Ulti is back up? Did he explain how it works?

UltimaterializerX posted...

When you lynch scum day 1, the correct play is always mass day 2 and win.

It's especially high EV to do it this game because I am Link, town backup. Everything I said yesterday was the truth, including that whole "scum better kill me before night 2" bit. I have to actually target a dead player to do it (travel back in time to when the player was alive, blah blah blah), and I am fully willingly telling the game right now I plan on targeting Red night 2 and tomorrow powering up whatever busted town role wants to act twice.

If scum roleblocks or kills me for announcing this, good. It lets town win the game at night as scum wastes time targeting me. If they don't, also good. It means town gets powered up tomorrow and wins.

This is Ulti's only post on it to my knowledge.

So he is backup that has to target a dead player to take their power... and he announced it instead of just you knke targeting a dead player and getting their power and confirming himself. = /

Lopen posted...

The fact that you didn't specify which logic you disagreed with is the reason I personally found it suspicious.

Scum loves vagueness in general. With as little as you've actually contributed this game I would want to be as specific as possible, maximize your contribution per word rather than putting out fluff.

And I'm fine with your conclusion here. It's wallz' reaction that I disliked.
I also disliked how when Ben pressed on being specific about "Scare is town" from the multiple posts that he quoted that mentioned vibes, only Blade really dug in and gave an explanation after some initial miscommunication. Dumey and ulti did not, unless I'm mistaken and missed it.

T2.116 was when wallz proposed NL.
Starting with New and Improved Votals as of 10:32 AM (t2.094, up through 116)
[3] Sultan - Peaf, Scare, (Lopen), Corrik, (Blade)
[2] Blade - (Sultan), (Blade), Sultan, Lopen
[1] Scare - (Blade), Dumey
[1] Ben - (Lopen), Ulti, (Blade), (Dumey)
[1] Lopen - (Corrik), (Sultan), Red, (Blade)
[0] Dumey - (Blade), (Lopen), (Dumey), (Scare)
[0] Changmas - (Dumey)
[0] Corrik - (Ulti), (Blade)
[0] Wallz - (Sultan), (Blade)
[0] Ulti - (Lopen), (Sultan), (Blade)
[0] Peaf - (Blade)
[0] Red - (Blade)
[0] Sbell - (Blade)

Scare was barely even a twinkle in an eye at that point in time. If wallz is scum, I don't think he would have argued for NL unless he was really struggling to come up with any reason to vote someone or unless the vote leaders were way ahead and all scum. The second one definitely doesn't fit the bill, so it could only possibly be the first (again, if he is scum). Surprisingly, I am feeling a little bit better about wallz.

I do not like lopen claiming credit for "breaking" sultan when I also once came out of left field with a wild claim while on sultan's team, and he was similarly incredulous and "confused" about it all.

Hmm. Unless it's both lopen and wallz, in which case obviously he wouldn't have wanted to have 3 of them committed to a train to save Sultan with that long in the day still to go.

He could have voted for literally anyone.

I'm coming around to wallz probably wouldn't be that blatant about it.

Sultan voted for Scare (self pres), Blade, Ulti, Wallz, and lopen. Perhaps a scum in there. I'm inclined to think either ulti or lopen most likely right now.

PeaceFrog posted...

I do not like lopen claiming credit for "breaking" sultan when I also once came out of left field with a wild claim while on sultan's team, and he was similarly incredulous and "confused" about it all.

Despite what Corrik said about me being erratic I'm very communicative with my scumteam and I guarantee you this would never happen on a team I'm on. Last game I was literally telling people in advance what flavor dog I was gonna claim so we didn't both claim the same one.

Not that that's going to convince you but yeah. Also you have to ask what was the scum equity in me doing that stuff to begin with. Don't just try and discredit the town points, figure out why scum would even do that.

You seem really hesitant to give town points to anyone this game-- feels like you need to keep mislynches open. Which makes sense.

Like I'm not saying Ulti and I literally can't be scum but it's like... so much mental gymnastics to try and rationalize it.

The sultan scum read was basically the only thing I picked up on d1. D2 has been a lot less clear to me. You can spin your narrative and I can truly see why it can appear that way. I seriously have very little clue who the next one could be so I'm thinking through the options.

I still think there's a decent chance that scum Scare put his vote on Sultan and by the time he came back, it would have been disastrous to remove it.

Corrik7 posted...

Blade i don't remember being the type that takes his ball and goes home.

Is there a list of any actual claims made this game? I mean, non-nonsense day 1 ones?

I recall Blade saying he refused to claim as some important town power, ended up mislynched and he feels it is an important loss in b8 history (I suppose you could debate how much was learned from this lol) so I do think blade might do that as any alignment to teach a lesson to town

PeaceFrog posted...

Sultan voted for Scare (self pres), Blade, Ulti, Wallz, and lopen. Perhaps a scum in there. I'm inclined to think either ulti or lopen most likely right now.

I will be shocked if lopen is scum. Ulti is probably town too though admittedly Id like to see more from him.

Yeah Blade is stubborn especially when he thinks he is objectively in the right. I agree with that sentiment.

I'm not convinced by the "ulti/ lopen claims were confusing to scum Sultan therefore they are town" argument because i have literally been scum with Sultan, made a weird claim, and he contorted himself to try to make sense of it in topic. What else is in ulti's favor for you? He jumped on Sultan after he was already lynched from his self-pres vote?

I think the backup claim is in Ultis favor

Yeah but did you communicate the claim

What was the timing of the claim and what were the implications of the claim you made.

Like "Sultan can potentially freak out over a scummate fakeclaim" shouldn't be sufficient evidence to doubt in and of itself. Really break down why they were similar-- this was your memory so why are you being vague about it.

Also note how you played-- did you grill Sultan about your fakeclaim or did someone else? Why would I catch Sultan out of position and give him hell for it-- there was more to breaking him than just drawing out a reaction-- I (we) drew it out and pounced on it. On a 3 man team's poisoner? That's super dumb.

Like I just had a game where I carried the deadest weight scumteam with nothing and we almost won. Why the hell do I need to gambit as scum.

wallmasterz posted...

I will be shocked if lopen is scum.

said everyone up until JC and I lynched him last game and won for town.

Yeah and I played last game by just... doing nothing

If red was not a walking trip to Disneyland and Abacus posted literally anything we would have won easily btw

What I mean by doing nothing is I just... tried to solve the game. There was nothing fancy no crazy fakeclaim play.

I'm good as scum precisely because I don't randomly bus my poisoner for no reason

also any theory that ulti and lopen are scum together this game should be wiped. There is no world where that makes any sense.

Obellisk posted...

said everyone up until JC and I lynched him last game and won for town.

I didnt think Lopen was definitely town, he lacked the spontaneity and free flowing hypothesis generation he always has as town. But it was a low activity game and he played very well so there was nothing much to point to against him. I specifically recall saying well Lopen seems a little too tempered/focused this game.

Obellisk posted...

also any theory that ulti and lopen are scum (...) this game should be wiped. There is no world where that makes any sense.

Full agree

They don't need to be together for one or the other to be scum.

And yeah I had been debating it in the chat with both Sultan and fd for at least 24 hours in valentines mafia. Sultan helped me with it and I butchered it in game from a misunderstanding on my end. I'm not saying you did the exact same thing here but it's got some similarities in how Sultan reacted.

PeaceFrog posted...

I butchered it in game from a misunderstanding on my end

That seems like an important distinction

Also if it was discussed for days that's another distinction

I dunno I just think it's a bit odd to seriously consider.

If Ulti is scum they know I'm lying immediately
If I am scum what is my motive exactly

We also both gave Sultan hell when he reacted like that and I think were very important in him spiraling. We didn't give him a pass for it he got grilled.

We should both be pretty hard cleared with any rational vaguely occulamatic look at the game.

Lopen posted...

Also if it was discussed for days that's another distinction

It was eod1 so it wasn't that much longer. And again I don't think either of you really grilled him on it until other people started doing it too. How was I the first vote on the guy, anyway? I came in pretty well after the events that started the chain reaction.

I'm not advocating for either of you to be lynched today. I don't have anyone on town lock right now and I'm explaining why you two aren't a lock for me.

Incidentally that's why Chang is pretty much lock scum and should be voted. Obvious countervote is obvious-- very little actual backbone to his suspicion on me. If you digest actual evidence and aren't deranged you're never lynching me first in this game. Blade can get away with it-- Chang not so much. Doesn't fit his temperament to react like that.

PeaceFrog posted...

Yeah Blade is stubborn especially when he thinks he is objectively in the right. I agree with that sentiment.

I'm not convinced by the "ulti/ lopen claims were confusing to scum Sultan therefore they are town" argument because i have literally been scum with Sultan, made a weird claim, and he contorted himself to try to make sense of it in topic. What else is in ulti's favor for you? He jumped on Sultan after he was already lynched from his self-pres vote?

I thought just got all condescending and crap when in that scenario. Not taking his ball and going home.

Has to be 3 scum with the ek.

3p survivor doesnt make sense. Nor does sk obviously with the last night kill. If a 3p exists it doesn't win with a team but only by themselves.

So 1/3rd of the scum team just died day 1 and with their extra kill which costs them an extra ML to win.

I'm not sure a stronger role than that exists with the set up. So I can't see suiciding to save there. Fwiw

Also think scum would be reluctant to lose that role so would have tried to save sultan if possible without getting their hands too dirty.

Unless they had a... dun dun dun... backup. Haha.

PeaceFrog posted...

They don't need to be together for one or the other to be scum.

oh absolutely one of them could still be scum. but there is a negative chance that lopen ulti and Sultan are the scum team

Guys you still have to kill the 3P with the worst 3P role ever to exist chop chop

sorry for crashing out last night, been at home with my parents for about a week now for the holidays and it's been really stressing me out and ended up taking that out on the game.

letting cooler heads prevail, this is more the direction I've wanted to go in. I'm not willing to town clear Lopen by any stretch but he wouldn't realistically be a top scum read for me today.

##unvote

I would like to look at wallz though. I don't think he's really been scumhunting (facebook pokes at SBell for being afk, flavor split allegations at me) and he had weird interactions with Sultan on Day 1 that could have arisen from Sultan trying to manufacture some distance between them. He's trying to pair peaf and I together - I still never felt like I got a satisfactory answer to why he would say:

wallmasterz posted... Im pretty sure theres scum in peaf/chang.

Until things are resolved I plan on boycotting P.F Changs

wallmasterz posted...

I never said you are paired and I never said one of you must be scum. You were listed together because I think there is more likely than not at least one scum between you. Its technically possible neither of you is scum. Id just be surprised.

Yeah, I did find the flavor split comment strange. It feels too early to make any definitive conclusions. Unlike with others I feel better about, I also havent seen any reason yet to find you town. I also take into account unfavorably your attempt to place a late vote on sultan (and he was already hammered anyway)

The way you phrased it implies a pair, but then you immediately back off of that with a sort of fence sitting comment about how it's technically possible neither of us is scum. This isn't just not tunneling, it's basically the opposite of tunneling - you're barely committing to anything.

the two things that give me slight pause are that he completely flipped his worldview on Scare from day 1 to day 2 (as I expected most people to do), which is generally towny. Of course, if Scare is also scum it makes perfect sense, because wallz can't afford to bus a teammate after losing one on day 1. But I don't actually believe in that because I also think Scare is town (and have from Day 1).

and the second thing being this message to SBell:

wallmasterz posted... I dont have a problem with Lopen or Blade, but yes Id prefer to have some additional talking points as well.

Id be highly surprised if sbell claimed to suspect me on the basis of something that happened overnight. 99% chance it has to do with my voting record.

There's quite a bit of bravado in that statement, and I think most players are a lot more likely to say that sort of thing if they are town and justifiably believe they have nothing to worry about. I wouldn't entirely put it past wallz to say that sort of thing as scum, especially if there's some sort of extenuating circumstances that gave him additional confidence to do so (wallz is godfather / didn't move / roleblocked SBell). But ultimately when I saw that I moved him up a tiny bit on the scum to town spectrum.

I'd like to hear what others have to add on wallz in either direction, and hopefully I can address questions people have about me from a much less manic state.

(What's amazing is playing this role as perfectly as possible still ends in no one believing it and you getting ****ed)

Thanks Death

Oh and one word of advice: When I flip town a lot of scrutiny needs to be on Lopen as possible third party if you're still hunting for one later.

Lopen is effectively calling me confirmed third party, but won't lynch me, which you always do with confirmed third parties. Why is it that Lopen wants to keep a "confirmed third party" around? Maybe because he is one and I'm the distraction?

changmas posted...

I would like to look at wallz though. I don't think he's really been scumhunting (facebook pokes at SBell for being afk, flavor split allegations at me) and he had weird interactions with Sultan on Day 1 that could have arisen from Sultan trying to manufacture some distance between them. He's trying to pair peaf and I together - I still never felt like I got a satisfactory answer to why he would say:

The way you phrased it implies a pair, but then you immediately back off of that with a sort of fence sitting comment about how it's technically possible neither of us is scum. This isn't just not tunneling, it's basically the opposite of tunneling - you're barely committing to anything.

P.F Chang's , he phrased it that way for the joke obviously, as his first and foremost priority. I feel like Wallz damage control representative because I keep just saying "he's fine hasnt done anything wrong yet", but he really is

Blade ya cant let Lopen speak for all of us lol. I know there is a 0% chance you are anything but town. You'll be fine. And Lopen is town too. This feels Deja Vu.

Just drop it. You're town. Who cares.

Can we lynch Chang now.

wallmasterz posted...

I didnt think Lopen was definitely town, he lacked the spontaneity and free flowing hypothesis generation he always has as town. But it was a low activity game and he played very well so there was nothing much to point to against him. I specifically recall saying well Lopen seems a little too tempered/focused this game.

That's a very charitable way to put it lol. Yeah I wasn't even in that game and I already know exactly what you mean. Its why Lopen is town in this game. I was in Valentine's mafia so I do know what to look for.

I do have something I wanted to say about Chang...Sure lets do it now

changmas posted...

I'd like to hear what others have to add on wallz in either direction

I've been waffling on him, honestly. I know I have a habit of getting hung up on one thing and it ruining my reads, but his suggestion to NL D1 when the votes were 3 sultan, 2 Blade, 1 Scare, 1 Ben, and 1 lopen - what an odd suggestion to come from scum if he is. But even that he was totally noncommital to.

PeaceFrog posted...

I also disliked how when Ben pressed on being specific about "Scare is town" from the multiple posts that he quoted that mentioned vibes, only Blade really dug in and gave an explanation after some initial miscommunication. Dumey and ulti did not, unless I'm mistaken and missed it.

Bruh. Go back and look at post 3.217 and then my following continued conversation with Ben about Scare and town/scum versus scum/scum theorizing.

ALSO QUICK ANNOUNCEMENT: I will very likely be missing deadline tonight. Gonna be busy and probably only be able to check in for the last couple hours of day. So probably want to establish a direction before the very EoD. :)

PeaceFrog posted...

I'm definitely not going to be around for deadline today. Probably not even the hours beforehand. I have to imagine that I'm not the only one in this boat. Let's get this party started.

##Vote: Scare

Speaking of not being here end of day

I hate hate hate this vote here

Scare is the absolute worst person you idle a vote on you won't be here for deadline for

Meow1000 posted...

(What's amazing is playing this role as perfectly as possible still ends in no one believing it and you getting ****ed)

Thanks Death

There is a strong possibility that it is not the role's fault that Lopen doesn't believe you, but the way you talked about it and made a whole "woe is me" show about it all of D1. Let's not blame the host when you clearly played the role in a "look at me i'm so clever" way instead of just playing it straight.

If Scare doesn't show up again today, he needs to be replaced. I don't care if he's scum and active on a scum board. He's not present, which was the specific rule in Death's verbiage.

But we're not lynching him.