Current Events > The Phantom Menace is so weird and disjointed

(+) Yeah! (+)

And I of course don't mean it like Lucas had a vision for an experimental, risky kind of film.
The plot and the pacing are all over the place, it's been pointed out that it's hard to know if Qui Gon, Obi Wan or Anakin are the main protagonist.

Imagine going to see this in '99 at the height of the hype expecting a regular plot like the OT and George Lucas hits audiences with this avant-garde, post modern masterpiece

Also, let's be honest. It would still be weird without Jar Jar. It's just that he feels like the icing on the cake on a movie that's already messy.

cousinvini posted...

it's been pointed out that it's hard to know if Qui Gon, Obi Wan or Anakin are the main protagonist.

Does it matter?

Tbh I liked it back then as an 11/12 year old. Too dumb to figure palpatine was the bad guy so Id theorize who he actually was.

I still love that movie in all its messiness. And in a lot of ways, I think it's the best one of the prequels.

JuanCarlos1 posted...

Tbh I liked it back then as an 11/12 year old. Too dumb to figure palpatine was the bad guy so Id theorize who he actually was.

I loved it as a kid because of the last lightsaber duel which I found really cool.
Didn't understand the space politics ver well back then.

Tbh when I rewatch it nowadays the podracing scene bores me deeply.

I'd say Qui-Gon is the main protagonist of Episode I, which is kind of interesting as Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme are the main trio of Episodes II and III, but in Episode I there is more focus on their interactions with Qui-Gon than with each other.

Yeah, the ending of the multiple plot lines is so emotionally jarring.

You got Jar Jar binks fumbling and stumbling in the middle of a battle, almost like a Benny Hill skit, juxtaposed with the super serious death of Qui-gon at the hands of Darth Maul, with the epic music, then you got "now this is pod racing!" young Anakin also just... lucking his way through what should be a more emotionally intense moment

Time has been okay to it I guess; other than Jar Jar & Jake Lloyd, it's rather serviceable I suppose. Still, it hasn't been in my SW rota for years now. TPM no longer feels canon nor required viewing.

R1
SW
AOTC
ROTS
ESB
ROTJ

Disney trilogy isn't either.

Whats weird about that movie is I saw it opening night at like 2am.
I was in college and everyone and my teachers were extremely excited. I was in a tech school taking cg type classes for movies, games and all that.
so some of my classmates snd teachers saw it like 4 times in the first weekend.
whats weird was EVERYONE LOVED IT.
Monday back at school i criticized it how it wasnt grimy or realistic and didnt feel authentic and they got mad at me. Not some but many people defended the hell out of it like it was the greatest thing ever made.

but months later is when everyone started to dislike it. Even those same die hard defenders then were starting to not like it so much.

it was weird

That's because Jar Jar is the real Sith Lord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ4TrDBuOUg

cousinvini posted...

Imagine going to see this in '99 at the height of the hype expecting a regular plot like the OT and George Lucas hits audiences with this avant-garde, post modern masterpiece

I don't have to imagine it, I was there.

It was honestly kind of funny, because everyone expected this movie to be the biggest monster hit in the history of cinema. Absolutely no one was expecting it to be anything less than amazing. Hell, I remember Austin Powers even acknowledging as much in its advertising: "If you can see one movie this summer... well, go see Star Wars. But if you can see TWO movies this summer, come see Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me".

Ar0ge posted...

I still love that movie in all its messiness. And in a lot of ways, I think it's the best one of the prequels.

Agreed, but that's really not a high bar to surpass. Considering what comes after, TPM basically wins by default, because it's the only movie that settles for being merely boring instead of aggressively bad.

You know, one of my favourite Star Wars "what-ifs" surrounds this movie, because it came surprisingly close to being a much better set-up for the remaining two films than it was. I had a revelation a few years ago - TPM and the PT as a whole would be drastically improved if you took Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and swapped their personalities. In reality, Qui-Gon is a gentle, instinctive Force-hippie who is shown to not particularly care what the Jedi Council thinks and who is completely willing to disobey their orders if he thinks they're wrong. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan is the by-the-books rookie of their buddy-cop routine, an uptight stick-in-the-mud who refuses to break from doctrine and who calls out his older partner when he feels like he's straying from the path.

But... what if you took their personalities (but *not* their roles) and switched them? What if Qui-Gon became the stern, dogmatic elder trying to reign in the wild and eager young Obi-Wan, who is chomping at the bit to make a name for himself and live up to the legendary reputation of the Jedi title? What if, instead of Qui-Gon going in to get parts in Mos Espa, he opts to guard the queen (or at least who he thinks is the queen) and sends his apprentice off for the supply run (which, really, kind of makes a lot more sense when you think about it) and it's Obi-Wan who discovers Anakin and hatches the plan to get him offworld instead?

Cinematically, it solves some of the issues with character focus and motivation in TPM. Now you're not wasting huge chunks of screen time on a character that's going to be dead before the end credits roll; instead, you're spending more time exploring Obi-Wan in his younger, brasher days. Watto pulling the "I'm the only guy who has the parts you need," routine and Obi-Wan not thinking of any alternatives is now youthful naivete and inexperience rather than Qui-Gon's seemingly early onset of senility. His attempted theft of the parts (i.e. trading them for worthless currency) becomes a brute force solution to a problem he is not yet crafty or experienced enough to handle properly. His discovery of Anakin takes on new light as he realizes (and is hubristically-blinded by) the fact that he could go down in history as the Jedi who discovered the Chosen One. His participation in the pod race and his bet with Watto to try and win both the parts and Anakin is not a really stupid plan that somehow works out, but is a deliberately reckless attempt at freeing Anakin and bringing him with them before Qui-Gon can catch wind of things and put a stop to it.

And it lines up nicely with what we hear of Obi-Wan's younger days in the OT. Obi-Wan paints himself as overconfident ("I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.") and brash (Yoda: "Much anger in him. Like his father." Obi-Wan: "Was I any different when you taught me?" Yoda: "You are reckless!" Obi-Wan "So was I, if you remember."), which are not really traits we see in PT Obi-Wan. But give him Qui-Gon's personality and a chip on his shoulder and all of a sudden things start falling into place.

But the biggest gain would be that it would finally do justice to the friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan that we hear spoken of in the OT. Instead of being just another Jedi who thought Anakin was dangerous and shouldn't be trained, Obi-Wan becomes the only one who believes in him, the only one to support and champion him even when the rest of the Jedi looked down upon him and were ready to discard him. He becomes like a surrogate brother when he lifts Anakin out of slavery and takes him to the stars and the simple act of standing before the Jedi council and defending Anakin would give them an instant bond of cameraderie. And Anakin and his training, likewise, becomes a challenge that Obi-Wan's pride demands he pass, if only to prove that he was right about this boy and the rest of the Jedi were wrong.

Qui-Gon's death and Obi-Wan's promotion removes the last obstacle Obi-Wan faces to taking Anakin as his apprentice. In the actual story, it would make far more sense for the Jedi to assign Anakin to a more experienced master, especially since Obi-Wan wasn't really chomping at the bit to train Anakin before Qui-Gon's death. And, on that note, Obi-Wan's insistence that he will see Anakin trained, even to the point of wilful disobedience of the council's edicts, seems to come completely out of nowhere and contradicts everything the rest of the movie has shown us about his character. Yet in our alternate reality? Now it makes sense. Obi-Wan not only wants to train Anakin, he is veritably *demanding* that privilege, an unspoken acknowledgement of his role in finding the Chosen One with some youthful glory-hunting mixed in (a sign of the recklessness and inner-anger Obi-Wan refers to in the OT). He is willing to disobey the council because he sees the Chosen One and the fulfillment of the ancient prophecy as too important to be tossed away, no matter what anyone says.

And so Anakin and Obi-Wan become brothers in arms, sharing a chip on their shoulder and an "us against the world" mentality as they both seek to prove themselves to the Jedi for different, if related reasons. They become, in some ways, foils for one another - Obi-Wan is eventually able to rise above his pride and gain wisdom, while Anakin succumbs to his and falls to evil. And when that bond is finally destroyed in Episode III, it will be a legitimate brotherhood sundered, not like it actually felt like - the inevitable collapse of a mostly-antagonistic relationship that never seemed particularly stable or healthy to begin with.

......I may have spent too much time thinking about this.

cousinvini posted...

The plot and the pacing are all over the place, it's been pointed out that it's hard to know if Qui Gon, Obi Wan or Anakin are the main protagonist.

Yes, Red Letter Media's shitty review is a rather pernicious poison.

Lucas said Padme was the main character with the jedi being the viewpoints through which we see her, similar to the droids being our vehicle to get to Luke in ANH, but if you disagree then I think Qui Gon also makes sense, seeing as how he's present for all the big scenes.

darkknight109 posted...

You know, one of my favourite Star Wars "what-ifs" surrounds this movie, because it came surprisingly close to being a much better set-up for the remaining two films than it was. I had a revelation a few years ago - TPM and the PT as a whole would be drastically improved if you took Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and swapped their personalities. In reality, Qui-Gon is a gentle, instinctive Force-hippie who is shown to not particularly care what the Jedi Council thinks and who is completely willing to disobey their orders if he thinks they're wrong. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan is the by-the-books rookie of their buddy-cop routine, an uptight stick-in-the-mud who refuses to break from doctrine and who calls out his older partner when he feels like he's straying from the path.

But... what if you took their personalities (but *not* their roles) and switched them? What if Qui-Gon became the stern, dogmatic elder trying to reign in the wild and eager young Obi-Wan, who is chomping at the bit to make a name for himself and live up to the legendary reputation of the Jedi title? What if, instead of Qui-Gon going in to get parts in Mos Espa, he opts to guard the queen (or at least who he thinks is the queen) and sends his apprentice off for the supply run (which, really, kind of makes a lot more sense when you think about it) and it's Obi-Wan who discovers Anakin and hatches the plan to get him offworld instead?

Cinematically, it solves some of the issues with character focus and motivation in TPM. Now you're not wasting huge chunks of screen time on a character that's going to be dead before the end credits roll; instead, you're spending more time exploring Obi-Wan in his younger, brasher days. Watto pulling the "I'm the only guy who has the parts you need," routine and Obi-Wan not thinking of any alternatives is now youthful naivete and inexperience rather than Qui-Gon's seemingly early onset of senility. His attempted theft of the parts (i.e. trading them for worthless currency) becomes a brute force solution to a problem he is not yet crafty or experienced enough to handle properly. His discovery of Anakin takes on new light as he realizes (and is hubristically-blinded by) the fact that he could go down in history as the Jedi who discovered the Chosen One. His participation in the pod race and his bet with Watto to try and win both the parts and Anakin is not a really stupid plan that somehow works out, but is a deliberately reckless attempt at freeing Anakin and bringing him with them before Qui-Gon can catch wind of things and put a stop to it.

And it lines up nicely with what we hear of Obi-Wan's younger days in the OT. Obi-Wan paints himself as overconfident ("I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.") and brash (Yoda: "Much anger in him. Like his father." Obi-Wan: "Was I any different when you taught me?" Yoda: "You are reckless!" Obi-Wan "So was I, if you remember."), which are not really traits we see in PT Obi-Wan. But give him Qui-Gon's personality and a chip on his shoulder and all of a sudden things start falling into place.

But the biggest gain would be that it would finally do justice to the friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan that we hear spoken of in the OT. Instead of being just another Jedi who thought Anakin was dangerous and shouldn't be trained, Obi-Wan becomes the only one who believes in him, the only one to support and champion him even when the rest of the Jedi looked down upon him and were ready to discard him. He becomes like a surrogate brother when he lifts Anakin out of slavery and takes him to the stars and the simple act of standing before the Jedi council and defending Anakin would give them an instant bond of cameraderie. And Anakin and his training, likewise, becomes a challenge that Obi-Wan's pride demands he pass, if only to prove that he was right about this boy and the rest of the Jedi were wrong.

Qui-Gon's death and Obi-Wan's promotion removes the last obstacle Obi-Wan faces to taking Anakin as his apprentice. In the actual story, it would make far more sense for the Jedi to assign Anakin to a more experienced master, especially since Obi-Wan wasn't really chomping at the bit to train Anakin before Qui-Gon's death. And, on that note, Obi-Wan's insistence that he will see Anakin trained, even to the point of wilful disobedience of the council's edicts, seems to come completely out of nowhere and contradicts everything the rest of the movie has shown us about his character. Yet in our alternate reality? Now it makes sense. Obi-Wan not only wants to train Anakin, he is veritably *demanding* that privilege, an unspoken acknowledgement of his role in finding the Chosen One with some youthful glory-hunting mixed in (a sign of the recklessness and inner-anger Obi-Wan refers to in the OT). He is willing to disobey the council because he sees the Chosen One and the fulfillment of the ancient prophecy as too important to be tossed away, no matter what anyone says.

And so Anakin and Obi-Wan become brothers in arms, sharing a chip on their shoulder and an "us against the world" mentality as they both seek to prove themselves to the Jedi for different, if related reasons. They become, in some ways, foils for one another - Obi-Wan is eventually able to rise above his pride and gain wisdom, while Anakin succumbs to his and falls to evil. And when that bond is finally destroyed in Episode III, it will be a legitimate brotherhood sundered, not like it actually felt like - the inevitable collapse of a mostly-antagonistic relationship that never seemed particularly stable or healthy to begin with.

......I may have spent too much time thinking about this.

i love this, honestly

darkknight109 posted...

......I may have spent too much time thinking about this.

You may have, but it makes perfect sense. Qui-Gon being the one that wanted Anakin trained is a kind of whiplash-type situation because Qui-Gon dies and Obi-Wan has to basically take over that role of "I'm going to be the guy that insists that Anakin gets trained" even though he showed no indication of that throughout the movie.

Of course, the explanation for all this is that Lucas didn't think of all this when he was writing the OT, but still, I do rather like that idea of Obi-Wan being the one who wants Anakin trained. For all of Obi-Wan and his "I was a brash young Jedi" stuff in ANH, he was a pretty strict and ardent rule-follower for all of TPM

darkknight109 posted...

...

......I may have spent too much time thinking about this.

Some walls of text are worth the reading. This is one of them.

Yeah it's a mess, but it's still my fav non-OT film.

Pod racing, darth maul fights, and battle on naboo all keep it entertaining.

I liked it. Still do. Don't really care about people who still crap on it.

It had the job of setting up the whole timeline. It introduced an age that was long before ANH. The worlds, characters, world building, politics, the Jedi of old, it all made its introduction in this movie.

And yes, Qui-Gon was easily the main protagonist. He nailed the image of what an ideal Jedi from this time would be like.

The point of the film was also the first big step in the future Emperor seizing power via sympathy (when he ordered an invasion of his own home world to get it). It also raised the intrigue of what the hell happened when we see this rich universe go to hell and where the empire eventually comes from.

The movie isn't perfect. But it did do a lot of things right.

I would have unironically liked more focus on the diplomatic and trade dispute parts, fantasy politics is my jam.

Kid Anakin is really awful though and drags the whole movie down.

Time posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ4TrDBuOUg

I always think of these videos whenever someone mentions phantom menace pacing. George had way too much power at that point, nobody could override him

The prequel trilogy should have started with Attack of the Clones.

The first movie was just set when it was to show Anakin being found by the Jedi. That story didn't need to be told.

Pick it up at the start of Attack, with Anakin already as an established Jedi Padawan, and a model one at that. Show his friendship with Obi-Wan, instead of the snippy convos they seemed to always have.

Have Padme be a senator not a queen, and have Anakin be tempted by her, but loathe to go against his Jedi teachings. Then Attack ends with the beginning of the war, Anakin saves Padme thus realizing he too is feeling something for her, and end the movie with the war begun and Anakin and Padme beginning their covert courtship (not getting married)

Second movie involves the war itself, you see the toll it begins to take on the galaxy, and the participants. Anakin and Padme are together, and you see them stealing moments together. But over the course of the film Palpatine is making repeated attempts on Padme's life through the Trade Federation, and they're showing Anakin's reaction to losing his troops time after time after time. Plant the seeds for the turn. Also establish that Padme is pregnant.

Then the third plays out similarly, but with Padme being killed by the Trade Federation shortly after giving birth, and Yoda and Obi-wan take the children and flee during order 66. Palpatine comes to Anakin after Padme's death and uses his hatred for her killers to push him towards the dark side, basically turning him loose to kill like was shown.

boomgetchopped3 posted...

I always think of these videos whenever someone mentions phantom menace pacing. George had way too much power at that point, nobody could override him

**I was in middle school and their reaction was my reaction after I watched it, I was just silent the whole ride back

It felt like the second act of any movie from the OT stretched over an entire film.

Love that idea posted of Obi and Qui switching personalities and actions in the movie though. Spot on.

2001mark posted...

Time has been okay to it I guess; other than Jar Jar & Jake Lloyd, it's rather serviceable I suppose. Still, it hasn't been in my SW rota for years now. TPM no longer feels canon nor required viewing.

R1
SW
AOTC
ROTS
ESB
ROTJ

Disney trilogy isn't either.

Curious, why AOTC and ROTS before ESB and not after? Most of the time I see a disjointed watch order it has those two after ESB.

Have Anakin be the zealot and Obi-Wan the one who skirts the rules of the Jedi Order. Have Obi-Wan have the secret affair with Padme, which drives Anakin to madness (and explains Kenobi's massive guilt in the OT)

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Yes, Red Letter Media's shitty review is a rather pernicious poison.

Lucas said Padme was the main character with the jedi being the viewpoints through which we see her, similar to the droids being our vehicle to get to Luke in ANH, but if you disagree then I think Qui Gon also makes sense, seeing as how he's present for all the big scenes.

This was a common thing for people who wanted stuff to be more complicated than it is to claim in that era. That the real main character is someone other than who the main character clearly is, just seen through someone else's perspective.

I always thought it would have been interesting if Anakin had been removed from the order between 2 and 3 due to Padme. Still a leader in the Clone Wars, uses his force skills but is unbound by a code and does whatever it takes to win and protect his friends.

the prequels suck ass

SSj4Wingzero posted...

You may have, but it makes perfect sense. Qui-Gon being the one that wanted Anakin trained is a kind of whiplash-type situation because Qui-Gon dies and Obi-Wan has to basically take over that role of "I'm going to be the guy that insists that Anakin gets trained" even though he showed no indication of that throughout the movie.

Of course, the explanation for all this is that Lucas didn't think of all this when he was writing the OT, but still, I do rather like that idea of Obi-Wan being the one who wants Anakin trained. For all of Obi-Wan and his "I was a brash young Jedi" stuff in ANH, he was a pretty strict and ardent rule-follower for all of TPM

My problem with all that though is it doesn't get to the very basic thing, which is that Qui-Gon is a Jedi from a peaceful time who actually is kinda the IDEAL of a Jedi. He talks about the Force as a living vessel, he talks about not following through with the Council not because he doesn't have respect for them, but because he can see that they are starting to move towards being used as Generals and fighting wars. Hell, he literally was the one who said, "I cannot fight a war for you".

Qui-Gon wanting Anakin to be trained has everything to do with who HE is as a Jedi. Curious about the Force, willing to forego orders to find what he feels is the best solution, clearly the idea of "The Chosen One" and someone who was born literally of the Force would have fed deeply into his connection and understanding of the Force as a whole.

Like, to him, Anakin is literally The Force itself pushing him to be the most important person in the Galaxy. More so than ANY other Jedi that we know, Qui-Gon would care most about this.

Red letter media's review was great. Made me think about and appreciate aspects of movies in such a different light.

I didn't really understand wtf was going on there as a kid (saw it in fifth or sixth grade). I loved the video game adaptations but also realize the Jedi-focused one was just ... confusing too.

Jeff_AKA_Snoopy posted...

My problem with all that though is it doesn't get to the very basic thing, which is that Qui-Gon is a Jedi from a peaceful time who actually is kinda the IDEAL of a Jedi. He talks about the Force as a living vessel, he talks about not following through with the Council not because he doesn't have respect for them, but because he can see that they are starting to move towards being used as Generals and fighting wars. Hell, he literally was the one who said, "I cannot fight a war for you".

Qui-Gon wanting Anakin to be trained has everything to do with who HE is as a Jedi. Curious about the Force, willing to forego orders to find what he feels is the best solution, clearly the idea of "The Chosen One" and someone who was born literally of the Force would have fed deeply into his connection and understanding of the Force as a whole.

Like, to him, Anakin is literally The Force itself pushing him to be the most important person in the Galaxy. More so than ANY other Jedi that we know, Qui-Gon would care most about this.

You can still have this without Qui-Gon. In fact, I kind of thought the trilogy would go in that direction, what with the Jedi Council being set up as something with deep political roots, but it never happened (largely because George bizarrely decided to wait until the end of the second movie to begin what was supposed to be the principle conflict of the trilogy, then had to wrap it up by midway through the next film, so this "galaxy-shaking war" that was supposed to define a huge part of Anakin and Obi-Wan's career barely has half-a-film's worth of screen time).

Basically, I was hoping we would see a sort of factionalization of the Jedi. There's an interesting contrast displayed in the OT between Obi-Wan and Yoda and their respective views on the Force, war, and the role of the Jedi. Yoda is very clearly a pacifist, best exemplified by his statement, "Wars not make one great." He is apparently uninterested in the Rebellion, never offering them aid nor counselling Luke on anything to do with their efforts to topple the Empire. Yoda's sole purview is the Force and, as such, his only concern is that Vader and the Emperor be destroyed, lest the dark-side cancer they represent spread.

By contrast, Obi-Wan is a celebrated military general and war veteran sought out by the Rebellion and is willing to assist them in their struggles while also taking Luke as an apprentice (with the implication being that Obi-Wan expects Luke not to just train as a Jedi but also become an integral part of the Rebel Alliance). He does not seem to follow Yoda's more pacifistic views, instead being more of a pragmatist willing to use his mastery of the Force for direct military intervention.

I was hoping the prequels would explore that unusual dichotomy. We do know that the Jedi were "guardians" of the Old Republic, but that could mean many different things, and given that they were extraordinarily rare beings, they would presumably need to choose carefully as to how they involved themselves in galactic affairs, as there were simply too few of them to participate in the day-to-day running of the Republic. What I was half-expecting to see was the Jedi split by division as to how to respond to the blossoming war consuming the galaxy. Have the Jedi ultimately divide into two factions: the first is the pacifists, led by Yoda, who advises that the Jedi are peacekeepers, not generals, and should not be goaded into a military role, particularly as war is antithetical to the idea of the Force being representative of life. The second is the interventionalists, led by Mace Windu (the single-most criminally underused character in the trilogy; how the fuck you sign Samuel L. Jackson to your movie, then think it's a good idea to have him sit around and scowl for 90% of his screen-time is beyond me), advising that the Jedi needed to act to preserve the safety and security of the Old Republic, even if it meant taking on roles they did not usually hold and abandoning their more pacifistic ways (this would serve as the first subtle nudge for Anakin down the road to the dark side, as Mace would be advocating an "ends justify the means" approach).

Obi-Wan and Anakin, lured by the promise of glory and renown, ultimately choose to side with Mace's faction (and the fact that Obi-Wan is choosing to go against his former master would be a point of particular drama). This is an area ripe for both interesting stories and character development. As Obi-Wan sees that his decisions have consequences, particularly for those under his command, he ultimately starts to temper his youthful enthusiasm and behave more cautiously, more in line with the Obi-Wan we eventually see in the OT; by contrast, Anakin ultimately becomes enamoured with the power and prestige of being a war hero. For a child who was constantly spurned and told he was not good enough, to suddenly find himself in a position where the entire galaxy knows his name and loves him for his heroism would be a powerful narcotic, and we again start to see his arrogance and vanity steering him down the road to the dark side.

This also ties nicely to Obi-Wan's description of himself as "angry" and "reckless" during ESB. Given that the actual Obi-Wan we got in the PT was practically allergic to adventure, these self-descriptions feel like he's talking about a completely different person. But if we show him as a bit of a glory-hound in his younger days, before he ultimately gained the wisdom and patience that would define his older years, it now lines up properly.

As well, when Obi-Wan first gives Luke his lightsaber, he comments, "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn-fool idealistic crusade, like your father did." The Clone Wars, as we ultimately saw them, could not reasonably be called an "idealistic crusade"; but in this hypothetical, where the Jedi chose to involve themselves against their traditional role, it absolutely would be.

And as above, this would add to the tragedy of Anakin's ultimate fall for Obi-Wan: not only has he lost his best friend and closest companion, he would realize that it was his hubris - his arrogance in assuming that he knew better than the assembled wisdom of his former master and the elders, and his own recklessness - that enabled Anakin's pride and helped form him into the creature of evil he became. Unlike in the actual PT, where Obi-Wan did everything he reasonably could to guide Anakin to the path of righteousness, in this fantasy setting it is Obi-Wan's own weakness that ultimately helps grow the seed of darkness in Anakin's heart. Obi-Wan would have so much more reason to grieve for what had happened, to exile himself away from the galaxy at large even though his assistance to the nascent Rebellion could have been so helpful, and to watch over Luke as some way of apologizing to his former friend for what his own failings had caused.

.......I may have spent too much time thinking about this as well.....

Nah, theorycrafting is good.

The biggest issue out of it all is that Anakin basically needs to be the "main character", and the best way to make Anakin a far more interesting character is to explore everything around him, which would in turn kinda relegate him to being not the protagonist. Lucas wrote himself into a bit of a quandary with that. Anakin's turn is based entirely on the systems around him, the people he surrounds himself with, like you are talking about. For sure.

While I would love the the story you are theorycrafting, it would be best served as a Game of Thrones-esque series where we get to look deeper into everything going on. We essentially get 5 hours of film to get from Anakin will be trained to Vader. Could you IMAGINE the story that you could tell if you got, oh I dunno, lets say 24 hours? 24 1-hour episodes of content in a TV show?

Fuck that would be so good.

Jeff_AKA_Snoopy posted...

Nah, theorycrafting is good.

The biggest issue out of it all is that Anakin basically needs to be the "main character", and the best way to make Anakin a far more interesting character is to explore everything around him, which would in turn kinda relegate him to being not the protagonist. Lucas wrote himself into a bit of a quandary with that. Anakin's turn is based entirely on the systems around him, the people he surrounds himself with, like you are talking about. For sure.

While I would love the the story you are theorycrafting, it would be best served as a Game of Thrones-esque series where we get to look deeper into everything going on. We essentially get 5 hours of film to get from Anakin will be trained to Vader. Could you IMAGINE the story that you could tell if you got, oh I dunno, lets say 24 hours? 24 1-hour episodes of content in a TV show?

Fuck that would be so good.

They had that opportunity with TCW, but chose to just re-tell the same "some planet is being invaded by separatists so we have to defend it" story over and over again

darkknight109 posted...

Basically, I was hoping we would see a sort of factionalization of the Jedi. There's an interesting contrast displayed in the OT between Obi-Wan and Yoda and their respective views on the Force, war, and the role of the Jedi. Yoda is very clearly a pacifist, best exemplified by his statement, "Wars not make one great." He is apparently uninterested in the Rebellion, never offering them aid nor counselling Luke on anything to do with their efforts to topple the Empire. Yoda's sole purview is the Force and, as such, his only concern is that Vader and the Emperor be destroyed, lest the dark-side cancer they represent spread.

And Qui-Gon could have been a part of this as well had he lived.

Knowing how Qui-Gon was characterized...he absolutely would have thought something was very suspicious about the Clone Wars if he were alive to see them. I could imagine an alternate universe where he refuses to fight as a general because he is so attuned to the living force that he, unlike the other Jedi, senses that the plot to destroy the Jedi is very real and coming from within the Republic. He just knows that something is fishy and thinks that being told to fight as a general is just not what the Jedi are supposed to do - the line "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" would have meant so much coming from him. A rift between the force-attuned Qui-Gon on one side and the hot-headed Obi-Wan and glory-seeking Anakin on the other? Sign me up.

But then he receives a transmission from his old master and, for once, has a blind spot. He goes to hear out Dooku, the former Jedi, who is "trying to warn him" about the danger he's in. He doesn't sense that his old master has fallen to the dark side until it's too late. He's lured into a trap. He sees Darth Sidious without his hood, has the biggest "oh shit" face of all time, but it's too late - he's killed. His death sparks the opening of hostilities between the Separatists and the Republic, and the Jedi Council, blinded by vengeance, joins the war against the separatists, playing right into Palpatine's hands.

That should have been the plot of Episode I.

I really wish Dooku was written far more... I dunno, tragic? Like, he talked warmly about Qui-Gon and he could have been written to have been this sort of ideal Jedi who saw the ways in which the Order was failing and became disillusioned with everything. In his state he was then at the mercy of Sidious, who takes advantage of his disillusionment. Like, I think that is what the IDEA behind his character was, but in the films you never see ANY of that. He speaks highly of Qui-Gon once and then beyond that is just a henchman until he outlives his purpose.

i couldnt even get into it as a dumb as rocks 7 year old. it was just so boring

Jeff_AKA_Snoopy posted...

I really wish Dooku was written far more... I dunno, tragic? Like, he talked warmly about Qui-Gon and he could have been written to have been this sort of ideal Jedi who saw the ways in which the Order was failing and became disillusioned with everything. In his state he was then at the mercy of Sidious, who takes advantage of his disillusionment. Like, I think that is what the IDEA behind his character was, but in the films you never see ANY of that. He speaks highly of Qui-Gon once and then beyond that is just a henchman until he outlives his purpose.

Dooku should have been in Episode 1.

Dooku was so lame in the movies because as you say, he didn't do much. Tales of the Jedi actually did a very good job of fleshing out his character really well

11 year old ADHD me didn't like it. I was just sitting there in the packed theater and being like '....Hold up I'm not really enjoying this despite all the lightsabers.'
I do fondly look back on the hype with the Diet Pepsi cans having the characters decorating them.

Jeff_AKA_Snoopy posted...

I really wish Dooku was written far more... I dunno, tragic? Like, he talked warmly about Qui-Gon and he could have been written to have been this sort of ideal Jedi who saw the ways in which the Order was failing and became disillusioned with everything. In his state he was then at the mercy of Sidious, who takes advantage of his disillusionment. Like, I think that is what the IDEA behind his character was, but in the films you never see ANY of that. He speaks highly of Qui-Gon once and then beyond that is just a henchman until he outlives his purpose.

I like my Star Wars villains menacing, rather than tragic, so I always felt that Maul should have been the overarching "muscle" villain to the prequels, but I do admit that the *idea* of Dooku is intriguing. He sits at this weird intersection of Jedi and Sith, Republic and CIS, and that should have given him an interesting perspective, particularly as he's the first (chronological) fallen Jedi we see, which should have had implications for and/or some sort of meaningful interaction with Anakin.

Instead, he's completely fucking boring because he never does anything of substance.

Seriously, the complete failure to develop a compelling villain is one of the prequels' more significant flaws, and one I feel is often overlooked. The movies juggle between Maul, Dooku, and Grievous (by far the most bizarre of the bunch), and each one dies within half a movie of their introduction, ensuring they never get any real character development, nor any chance to build up a reputation of fear and notoriety in the audience.

SSj4Wingzero posted...

Knowing how Qui-Gon was characterized...he absolutely would have thought something was very suspicious about the Clone Wars if he were alive to see them.

Gonna be honest, I hate the structure of the Clone Wars, largely because of how dumb the set-up is and how pointless the whole thing feels. The Jedi stumble across a nearly-complete army of clones that were ordered in the name of a dead Jedi Master and made from a man seen to be in the employ of the Republic's enemies on a planet that has been deleted from the Jedi records, hinting at the involvement of someone exceedingly powerful and well-connected. Your average five-year-old could connect the dots that this is all a set-up.

There's also the oft-mentioned problems of scale (AotC puts the number of clones - who are supposed to be a fighting force so ubiquitous that the entire conflict was named after them - at 1.2 million; if they were a military force on Earth today, they wouldn't even crack the top 10 in terms of size, yet we're supposed to believe they're capable of defending a Republic that consists of hundreds if not thousands of inhabited worlds) and a distinct lack of dramatic tension (exactly why am I supposed to get invested in a conflict where both sides are comprised of infinitely-replaceable combat automata, all of which ultimately answer to the same guy? The Clone Wars are basically Palpatine playing a game of Warhammer 40k against himself).

I love your idea of Qui-Gon getting betrayed and murdered by Dooku before he can uncover the truth, but honestly if we're rewriting the prequels to actually be good, I'd argue the Clone Wars needs to be completely rewritten from the ground up.

that movie sucks and even as a 15 year old kid that was completely obvious.

i had to pretend to like it because the movie tickets were a present.

darkknight109 posted...

Seriously, the complete failure to develop a compelling villain is one of the prequels' more significant flaws, and one I feel is often overlooked. The movies juggle between Maul, Dooku, and Grievous (by far the most bizarre of the bunch), and each one dies within half a movie of their introduction, ensuring they never get any real character development, nor any chance to build up a reputation of fear and notoriety in the audience.

Grievous was the most...well, grievous case, because he was the most useless one. Lucas is good at worldbuilding and making characters but he did jack with the worlds and characters he made, which is sad.

darkknight109 posted...

Gonna be honest, I hate the structure of the Clone Wars, largely because of how dumb the set-up is and how pointless the whole thing feels. The Jedi stumble across a nearly-complete army of clones that were ordered in the name of a dead Jedi Master and made from a man seen to be in the employ of the Republic's enemies on a planet that has been deleted from the Jedi records, hinting at the involvement of someone exceedingly powerful and well-connected. Your average five-year-old could connect the dots that this is all a set-up.

Introducing the character of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas was another one of those pointless things that Lucas thought up but never actually fleshed out.

The Clone Wars cartoon actually does a good job of addressing some of the things you talked about (i.e. the Jedi spend much of it trying to find out who this Sith Lord is, and there's some reflection about how suspicious it is that Dooku is responsible for the creation of the clones), and it's not bad...but man, the movies were just so bleh by comparison, plus the Clone Wars cartoon still has to fit into the plotlines of the movies, so there's only so much they can do.

Like, this scene was actually well done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JKtiVQCnuk

https://youtu.be/fTbsluR-Jug?si=HINjN2p6rcFtSFYO

Pod racing and duel of the fates kinda make it worth it though.

Not much of a fan of the prequels anymore, but TPM was always my favorite. It has a charm to it and it feels closer to the OT than the others although I can't exactly say why. Still, even as a 9 year old when it came out, I felt Jar Jar was too much and it was too "kiddy" at times.

I've seen people blame Redlettermedia for the prequel hate, but most of what Plinkett said was already out there among fans. I think Plinkett/Mike also helped point out and articulate some things that many critics couldn't exactly put into words. For me, even as a kid/teen watching the movies, something felt "off" regarding certain things, but I couldn't exactly say what it was. Hope that makes sense.