Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 432: OK, Loomer

(+) Yeah! (+)

I honestly thought the alpha/beta stuff was an extended joke for like, two years straight.

To be clear I don't think KP is concern trolling AT ALL but I have absolutely no idea why he's taking it as if we disagree with his entire premise rather than taking issue with some of the framing and conclusions

KamikazePotato posted...

I honestly thought the alpha/beta stuff was an extended joke for like, two years straight.

I think a lot of people did.

The premise that the American left is more empathetic by default is laughable though. There's a big difference between empathy and sympathy and liberals struggle hard with empathy. They just seen no value in it. Republicans do see the value, because it's how they win votes despite the poor policies.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I know you're better than this so I can't let you get away with this framing. How is this discussion making light of mens' issues and struggles in any way? The only way that could be true is if you have a complete presumed innocence of every young man who goes down the MAGA pipeline.

What I took issue with is saying that all people who vote MAGA are a sexist monolith, which is how I interpreted several earlier posts. The road to get there is not just flipping a switch and becoming evil. It often starts from issues that aren't being addressed, which then snowball due to other issues. It's not a presumption of innocence; just recognizing how things appear from other people's perspectives. I'd love to find a way to reach other young men before they get radicalized, even though doing so would probably be extremely difficult.

Other than this current discussion - I've specifically avoided talking about anything related to male issues here because I don't think it would be received well based on discussions over the years. I doubt most people here really want to talk about things like male suicide rates, the education crisis, or toxic social pressure. No one's going to care when abortion just got banned like a year ago.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I mean, pretty much every discord server I'm in is full of young men venting about serious issues in their life and receiving sympathy and support, I don't know what to tell you.

I am in approximately zero discord servers (the B8 one doesn't count). If it's better there, where people actually have to have real conversations, then great! That's legitimately awesome. I just haven't seen that same experience in other types of social media spaces (primarily speaking about reddit, which is where most of my non-GameFAQs browsing experience comes from).

I never participated directly in any alpha/beta stuff so I just assumed it was some elaborate joke happening outside of my circle, learning that people actually meant it is pretty alarming

KamikazePotato posted...

the B8 one doesn't count)

That one definitely doesn't count and wouldn't be a good one to bring up to counter any of your points... but that's another discussion.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I never participated directly in any alpha/beta stuff so I just assumed it was some elaborate joke happening outside of my circle, learning that people actually meant it is pretty alarming

I mean, the primary people pushing it on this board were like... Realo, Ulti, TimJab and Seph IIRC

So, uh, yeah.

Paratroopa1 posted...

To be clear I don't think KP is concern trolling AT ALL but I have absolutely no idea why he's taking it as if we disagree with his entire premise rather than taking issue with some of the framing and conclusions

Dude I'm talking to like four people at once and I've had to drop a few conversations because I can't keep up. Other people did disagree with the premise so I guess that's what I went with. If it seems like I misunderstood something, that's because I probably did!

I don't know how actual concern trolls do this. I guess it's easier when you don't have to pay attention to what you write.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I never participated directly in any alpha/beta stuff so I just assumed it was some elaborate joke happening outside of my circle, learning that people actually meant it is pretty alarming

Throw me in this camp too.

I just couldn't "get it" from any kind of non-sarcastic perspective and decided there must not be an "it" to get.

I guess from that perspective it was a pretty effective dog whistle that allowed for openly extreme conversation under my nose essentially undetected.

KamikazePotato posted...

Other than this current discussion - I've specifically avoided talking about anything related to male issues here because I don't think it would be received well based on discussions over the years. I doubt most people here really want to talk about things like male suicide rates, the education crisis, or toxic social pressure. No one's going to care when abortion just got banned like a year ago.

Try it

KamikazePotato posted...

I doubt most people here really want to talk about things like male suicide rates, the education crisis, or toxic social pressure. No one's going to care when abortion just got banned like a year ago.

For the record I think this stuff is important and absolutely critical to understanding why people are radicalized, so if anyone's trying to delegitimize it I hope it's because of the sealioning thing I talked about and not because they don't think these issues are real issues. I'd punt anyone in the ass if they thought men aren't under an enormous load of psychological pressure.

I do think that anyone who's deep into MAGA at this point just kinda sucks though. Like I hope there's someone out there who can change their minds but it's sure not gonna be me. That's kinda the eternal issue here - these people do need someone on their side who can deradicalize them and make them change their shitty beliefs, but it can't be a responsibility that's forced on any one of us if they're not already our friends and family (and quite frankly even if they are), and as a community we don't have a shared responsibility to take someone in if they're not willing to conform to a certain standard of conduct we expect. This IS a real problem and it's not simply fixed.

I do think that people end up radicalized into shitty views by the people around them. I don't think my grandma would even be voting republican right now, or ever, if not for the fact that there's a local conservative radio show she happens to like, not because it tells her what she wants to here or agrees with her preconceived viewpoints, but simply because it was on every afternoon when she picks the kids up from school and she liked the guy on it and that was simply it. (This is why I consider dudes like Joe Rogan to be so profoundly dangerous.) But I do also think that to get really deep into MAGA and not want to pull yourself out of it, you do kinda have to have some underlying attitudes, otherwise you'd be scared out of it at some point. I never got into 4chan as a child or as an adult because I was so immediately turned off by the whole vibe of this place and I've spent the rest of my life kinda judging people who don't feel the same way about 4chan and spend time there even if they agree the place sucks because it's like, why *aren't* you being chased out of this space?

KamikazePotato posted...

Dude I'm talking to like four people at once and I've had to drop a few conversations because I can't keep up. Other people did disagree with the premise so I guess that's what I went with. If it seems like I misunderstood something, that's because I probably did!

I don't know how actual concern trolls do this. I guess it's easier when you don't have to pay attention to what you write.

I'm sorry if I made you defensive by the way. I find this discussion annoying but I didn't want to try to make you feel bad. I know we're on the same side.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm sorry if I made you defensive by the way. I find this discussion annoying but I didn't want to try to make you feel bad. I know we're on the same side.

No worries, you didn't upset me at all. I was trying to be lighthearted with that last post, but I probably misrepresented the tone. Always a problem with internet text.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I do think that anyone who's deep into MAGA at this point just kinda sucks though.

For the record I do agree with this. I think un-radicalizing a staunch MAGAhead is borderline impossible. I was much more concerned with preventing new people from being radicalized. I think that's more doable...hopefully.

foolm0r0n posted...

Try it

Sure.

To pick one of the 'lighter' topics I mentioned before: I think male education will be an issue moving forward - not just for men, but for the Democratic party. It's no coincidence that people who go to college mostly vote Democrat. Being exposed to a wide variety of people and subjects does wonders for not being a bigot. Aside from college, young boys struggling in early grade school education too, but that's a different conversation.

With that said, college is egregiously overpriced right now so I can't fault anyone who doesn't go. Ideally it wouldn't put people into eternal debt but woo capitalism.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

I just couldn't "get it" from any kind of non-sarcastic perspective and decided there must not be an "it" to get.

This is kinda a shame. I don't blame anyone for checking out of the arguments over the last 15 years here, they really were terrible. But they were also such a deep look into so many wildly different psychologies, in an intimate multi-decade community. I don't think you could ever replicate it. The alt-righters especially had surprisingly different motivations and unique paths through all the events. Learning what makes them tick has been so valuable.

Ok, what even is "male education" in the context of a political issue, and how does it differ from education in general? Really not getting that at a glance.

Reg posted...

Ok, what even is "male education" in the context of a political issue, and how does it differ from education in general? Really not getting that at a glance.

There's been a growing gender gap in education with boys doing notably worse than girls IIRC (like sometimes basically a full grade-level ahead in certain subjects) as well as with actual grades. I'll admit I'm not too read-up on the suspected causes for why that is however.

Reg posted...

Ok, what even is "male education" in the context of a political issue, and how does it differ from education in general? Really not getting that at a glance.

Boys are doing worse in elementary school and less boys than girls are going to college. So like, a gender gap in education, in the same way there's a gender gap in wages.

It's a problem but I'm not really sure how you solve it. The college aspect runs, I think, concurrent to men being more likely to be alt-right and to alt-righters denying evidence, science, facts of reality, etc. Which one do you even try to solve first...?

Oh, huh

I feel like this isn't (or shouldn't be) a separate issue from trying to improve our education system/prevent the Republicans trying to dismantle public education in general, but maybe it does require extra care.

Reg posted...

Ok, what even is "male education" in the context of a political issue, and how does it differ from education in general? Really not getting that at a glance.

Whoops. Forgot to mention the actual important bit - that male college enrollment/graduation is decreasing year-by-year. So is female college enrollment/graduation, but not nearly as drastically as for the guys. Considering that level of education is correlated with supporting Democratic policies, and that a lot of men are already getting taken in by MAGA, I think it's somewhat of a worrying trend.

Reg posted...

maybe it does require extra care.

For elementary and grade schooling, I have read some articles proposing that the way early education is taught isn't conducive to how boys' brains develop at a young age, and that there's room for improvement there. But I'm also not anywhere close to an expert.

Also public schooling is horrifically underfunded so yeah, good luck getting anything changed there.

KamikazePotato posted...

the way early education is taught isn't conducive to how boys' brains develop at a young age

How is it different from the past where the gender gap wasn't as big or even favored boys?

foolm0r0n posted...

How is it different from the past where the gender gap wasn't as big or even favored boys?

Changing school structure, for one. There used to be much more time allocated to physical activity and playtime, which is important for helping active boys stay focused and not lose their minds.

This also coincides with what I'm assuming is different socialization for girls, where they're now being told to try their hardest and excel, as opposed to decades ago where they kinda weren't.

So the boys are in an environment less-suited to them while the girls are taking their limiters off. Girls brains also mature faster (or at least develop abilities that suit school faster, like delayed gratification and self-regulation), even at an early age, so they would probably be outperforming regardless. But the gap has been steadily getting worse, which is something worth paying attention to.

Again, I am not an expert on this subject.

In election news so low key I didn't even know it was happening, Dems just flipped the Pennsylvania house in a special election.

https://twitter.com/AndreDCarroll/status/1836200201561739445?t=NlERwSya7nvfB2oZRm1Kkw&s=19

how much of this "boys' brains" stuff is real and how much is just culture

NFUN posted...

how much of this "boys' brains" stuff is real and how much is just culture

I'm deeply skeptical of it, but I guess I apparently have a girl brain?

There have been many, many good points raised and it was interesting to read through after waking up! I dont actually think these are competing viewpoints at all. I dont think theres a single cause for this and if we knew how to stop radicalisation to the far-right, we would have done it already.

I am a little bit reticent to say well, if you just improve material conditions people wont go to the extremes because when you look at the organised far-right in a lot of places, loads of them are better off. Likelihood to vote for Trump correlates positively with income. A map of where Reform vote was highest in the UK perfectly overlaps with highest rates of owning ones home outright. And historically, the Nazis used the imagery of the working class but were predominantly backed by the middle class. So I dont think simply addressing poverty and inequality on its own will deal with the far-right. Now to be clear, obviously we should still do that anyway. I am just sceptical of its impact on far-right politics, I think its more social.

We should also be aware that in a lot of places its not necessarily that young men have gotten more conservative in the macro but that young women have gotten a lot more liberal, this is most obvious in the US thanks to the overturning of Roe v Wade. So when people say that the statistics show that the gender political gap has widened among the young, it is actually largely thanks to women moving left. And we cannot overstate the importance of abortion in the gender political gap, many other countries (though not all eg South Korea) have a smaller gender political gap than the US and abortion has to be a huge reason why.

Then also there is the issue of small vs large scale issues. Take Andrew Tate for instance, you look at surveys a majority of young men actually dont like him, but the minority that do is still a big problem because thats hundreds of thousands potentially getting radicalised. These numbers wont affect a presidential vote, but they will lead to things like terrorism. And that is where security needs to step up, online spaces including online gaming should absolutely be getting monitored heavily with much stronger rules from platform holders. And these spaces being male dominated no doubt helps that gap. With that said there are cases of girls being radicalised this way it is just a minority of the time.

There is much more you can say on this, its an incredibly complex issue. Its not a one-way street though, in the UK election the gender gap declined substantially relative to last time - though I would say that smnply likely had a lot to do with brexit not being a big part of the conversation this time as that issue had a gender skew to it. So that political gap can be closed. But what closes it will be complicated and vary a lot depending on where we are talking about.

NFUN posted...

how much of this "boys' brains" stuff is real and how much is just culture

What little I can find at a glance says that its likely mostly untrue.

But also there has been very little study on it.

Its likely boys have more variation(But on both sides of development, lagging behind and being advanced) but that there is some "boys way" of learning I'm not turning up anything. Will keep checking.

red13n posted...

What little I can find at a glance says that its likely mostly untrue.

But also there has been very little study on it.

Its likely boys have more variation(But on both sides of development, lagging behind and being advanced) but that there is some "boys way" of learning I'm not turning up anything. Will keep checking.

Yeah, there tends to be more variation (and also or perhaps partially explaining this variation, more diagnosed learning disabilities) in boys. I'd say it's also probable that boys learn more through physical movement simply because they're encouraged to undergo physical activity more. The brain is real flexible and if they do more physical stuff they'll find it easier to learn skills related to physical activities, to drastically oversimplify.

I would also say because of that it's best to focus on the social reasons why boys or girls may perform poorly. It's wayyyy easier to change those factors and also more useful than handwaving it as biology. Hell, we've already seen huge changes in girl's performance in schools over the last few decades. It'd be a bit silly to say that now we've finally removed all sexism from society and the remaining differences are all because of biology.

To kinda answer the original question, it's pretty much impossible to research this stuff adequately. Controls are impossible for determining biological/social gender differences, and almost everyone who suggests otherwise coincidentally has the same findings and also donates frequently to open eugenics groups. Brain gender differences are relatively small, if notable, and can also be explained by behaviour and circumstance, not just birth circumstances.

Source: Wrote two postgrad papers on gender differences in educational outcome and learning.

Sheep007 posted...

Source: Wrote two postgrad papers on gender differences in educational outcome and learning.

We don't take kindly to your type round here

LightningStrikes posted...

Likelihood to vote for Trump correlates positively with income.

Since when? Cities vote D, rural votes R. Richer states vote D, poorer states vote R. So it would be surprising for it to be a positive correlation.

Also home ownership correlation makes sense, that probably applies in the US too, but again it's because rural people are far more likely to own homes despite having much lower income.

Anyway, the key demographic here is young men who grew up in traditionally Democrat families, who are now turning to all-right. Something turned them that way, so something can turn them back. It's not a rule that applies to all global conservatives.

how much of this "boys' brains" stuff is real and how much is just culture

I'd say a big part of it is that young boys are allowed to run wild at home more than young girls.

To speak in generalities thay i still see all the time, if boys run around like crazy or don't settle down when told to it's "boys being boys" and "you know how little boys are". If a little girl does it that's "unlady like" and they are more likely to be forced to practice sitting still and being quiet. The standard way of raising girls in modern times is much better for the school environment and school success.

Maniac64 posted...

I'd say a big part of it is that young boys are allowed to run wild at home more than young girls.

To speak in generalities thay i still see all the time, if boys run around like crazy or don't settle down when told to it's "boys being boys" and "you know how little boys are". If a little girl does it that's "unlady like" and they are more likely to be forced to practice sitting still and being quiet. The standard way of raising girls in modern times is much better for the school environment and school success.

Lol oh man. It's funny because my kids are the exact opposite of what you'd consider boy/girl behaviour in that regard. My daughter is buck wild while my son is a bit more reserved.

Which isn't actually that uncommon but parents tend to encourage the opposite behavior in my experience.

I think it's important for empathy to be overstated, and also to deny whomever said we were just screwed because that's something people don't have? Empathy can be taught. Not the semi-psychic rare form of it, but basic empathy, yeah.

Universities don't make people into liberals because professors are teaching it - it's because students get exposed to people of different races, sexualities, socioeconomic backgrounds... I never *knew* I knew a gay person until my freshman year of college roommate - and I was accepting and then felt ashamed of previous behavior in adolescence when I befriended him. There are so many white people across the US who are non-maliciously racist - because they've never met a person of color (or at least befriended one). Do these people escape their bubble and expand their empathy? Sometimes!

I know a guy who was from rural Ohio, Trump fan, went to a rally - and he got to uni and within a year he publicly apologized after realizing how dehumanizing Trump's rhetoric is to others.

I also think Millennials probably don't trend right at all because we both got exposed to globalist reach (making friends on the internet in other countries) and were internet-fluent before the Casual Revolution (sorry). We know how online algorithmic spaces get made, know to avoid their influence, and don't let it change our previous views gained from exposure.

Empathy can be taught. It's harder as people get older, but that doesn't mean people can't widen up as adults.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

There are so many white people across the US who are non-maliciously racist - because they've never met a person of color (or at least befriended one). Do these people escape their bubble and expand their empathy? Sometimes!

It also goes the other way. The first time I ever saw a white person casually said the N word in front of me was in a college friend group, after they had accepted me. Before that I genuinely believed people never said it anymore, like we were past it as a society. I also started to see other non-black minorities say it, probably learned behavior from college too. Very mind blowing. These are all hyper Democrat Hillary stanning type people too.

foolm0r0n posted...

Since when? Cities vote D, rural votes R. Richer states vote D, poorer states vote R. So it would be surprising for it to be a positive correlation.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html

Party Identification:

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/09/partisanship-by-family-income-home-ownership-union-membership-and-veteran-status/

Remember, yes cities are rich but theyre also unequal and where the most poverty is. California is a rich state but it also has some of the most poverty. Also, a lot of those poor states do an awful lot to suppress their poorer voters who would vote Democrat. These are the lowest turnout states. Undoing that is what flipped Georgia.

At the end of the day a lot people just vote for their pocket and theres still a feeling among the well off globally that rightwingers are better for their money. Which is complete nonsense in the long-term anyway, but a lot of people see it like that. Lets not forget Trumps big economic policy was a tax giveaway for the richest.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Universities don't make people into liberals because professors are teaching it - it's because students get exposed to people of different races, sexualities, socioeconomic backgrounds...

I think it's both. Not that professors are literally teaching students to be liberals but like, my history classes absolutely pushed me further left. And it's gotta be the same for plenty of other humanities and social sciences (and probably some harder sciences too but those aren't my expertise).

foolm0r0n posted...

It also goes the other way. The first time I ever saw a white person casually said the N word in front of me was in a college friend group, after they had accepted me. Before that I genuinely believed people never said it anymore, like we were past it as a society. I also started to see other non-black minorities say it, probably learned behavior from college too. Very mind blowing. These are all hyper Democrat Hillary stanning type people too.

Absolutely. I didn't encounter extremely sexist "females are a different species from men" people IRL until college. Same experience as yours, I thought we were kinda past that as a society, at least in terms of people not openly saying that shit when they aren't anonymous. Eye-opening and disturbing.

LightningStrikes posted...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html

Party Identification:

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/09/partisanship-by-family-income-home-ownership-union-membership-and-veteran-status/

The 1st poll is kinda useless and the 2nd only shows the correlation with non-graduates, but I suppose that's enough to create the overall correlation. The overall U shape for lowest and highest earners makes the most sense.

foolm0r0n posted...

It also goes the other way. The first time I ever saw a white person casually said the N word in front of me was in a college friend group, after they had accepted me. Before that I genuinely believed people never said it anymore, like we were past it as a society. I also started to see other non-black minorities say it, probably learned behavior from college too. Very mind blowing. These are all hyper Democrat Hillary stanning type people too.

Was his behaviour corrected? People like this I find know it's 'bad' to use the slur, but think that they can use it with people they're comfortable with. Like, it wasn't until 8th grade that I knew how awful it actually was - white kids aren't always taught that.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Was his behaviour corrected?

Not by me, but probably eventually. The thing is I don't think the behavior ever really changes, it just shrinks the scope of people they're comfortable using it with.

Maybe if it's that late, but not in general, no.

I experienced enough instances of exposure to jokes, San Andreas, places where the slur was used and never corrected by an adult. It wasn't until I saw it used in eighth grade in conversation with a black kid that I learned how much affect it could have.

I

Play

Stardew Valley