Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 431: Concepts of a Plan

(+) Yeah! (+)

red13n posted...

The part that bothers me is that the cult has embraced Trump as essentially a sports fandom. His death would be best to stop it but as long as hes alive he can basically lead the cult however he wants. His crowd is going to back him no matter what. There are so many people now interested in politics in a way that isn't sane in the slightest.

This might be overstated. I'd compare it to the cults behind like Ron Paul and Bernie. They were fully locked in while they were running, but after they stopped, it was basically over. Ron Paul kept doing speeches afterwards, but then he started endorsing people like Romney, and it became very clear that he was "done". He was just doing speeches for money and to help his son. No one thinks about him anymore really. Bernie is different since he kept up his activism, but he still fell out of view just because he's not running anymore.

The main difference is Trump gained political fandom on Twitter, unlike my examples. So if he goes back to being a Twitter megaphone, he might still keep his influence. But I think without the prospect of him running for president and winning, he loses like 90% of his appeal. He behaved the same in 2008 and 2012 as in 2016, but was largely ignored until he started winning in 2016.

The thing that gives me the most hope is that he has no replacement. The entire movement is predicated around it being Trump. Left and right, Trump-likes and Trump's surrogates are getting almost universally wrecked in actual elections.

If these people can't win when Trump is actively supporting them and running, what the hell are they gonna do without him?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

here is a bulwark of young people who are not conservative due to nostalgia - it's due to tribalism.

Thorn posted...

For younger people (men in particular) I wonder how big the impact of the toxic "manosphere" stuff is in radicalizing - I think you see it as the gender gap among young people has been growing.

I keep hearing people say stuff like this and I just don't see it.

foolm0r0n posted...

Being a white liberal sounds real nice. I'm glad y'all were forced to wake up a bit though. It's good for you.

What?

I stand by that ultimately most Republicans aren't like Trump and the only reason he's being supported politically is because

1. Celebrity-- that's why Trumplikes get wrecked
2. Republicans that are savvy enough to know the sitting president being republican helps or hate the democrat ideals that much

The MAGA types are loud so it reflects poorly on the lot but it's by no means the standard Republican mindset.

I do think politics is poisoned for a bit because of the venom on both sides (theyre all Trumpers!!! out of the Dem side will be something to overcome too) but I will say I've found Harris's campaign style to be very healing on that front. It's wayyy better than Hillary's and honestly even Joe's.

We just need some politicians to be mature and not default to slinging mud (Trump has a lot of low hanging fruit and himself is a mudslinging so it's easy to do that) and it'll get better

Tbh I think had Biden been the Democratic nominee in 2016 he wouldve lost, and in that world Hillary Clinton probably wins the 2020 election and looks good for two terms.

Lopen posted...

(theyre all Trumpers!!! out of the Dem side will be something to overcome too)

Not anymore since lots of Reps are voting Kamala. That's a clear way to overcome the Trumper accusation because you're literally not a Trumper if you vote against him.

I think the dream of being a "reasonable Republican" who also votes for Trump just because of "strategy" is dead. That's how they move on.

I think its an issue that is much more complex and has far more interacting factors than people like to admit. There are also significant national differences. Young men are in some countries still significantly more liberal than every demographic except young women, but then you look at South Korea where young men have become more conservative than average. Or Canada where there is a notable gender gap among young people but young women are also getting more conservative and the gap has narrowed recently. On the other hand in the US the data suggests that young mens political views have stayed broadly the same for decades but young women have become significantly more liberal, which ultimately is down to abortion rights. All this is to say there isnt one answer and the solutions will ultimately depend a lot on what the local issues are.

My fear is that this bipartisan rhetoric backfires later if Kamala wins and DOESN'T actually govern that way. Alternatively, I hope if she does that a whole bunch of Dems don't get furious if she agrees to potentially reasonable non-Trump Republican legislature. It's a needle she has to thread.

The fact that not a single one of these prominent Republicans endorcing Harris are actually ASKING for anything in return is certainly a boon. It's difficult to take someone clutching their pearls about a Cheney seriously when the actual statements from people like them is "I don't agree with Harris, but that mother fucker is crazy".

Honestly guys. Most Republicans aren't Trumpers they're just willing to throw away all ideals, ethics, and accountability for the sake of getting Trump into office.

I dunno, the Republican Party has seemed like a Trump cult to me since he lost the last election, but Ill admit its the main reason I didnt take his reelection bid seriously at all this time.

Lopen posted...

I do think politics is poisoned for a bit because of the venom on both sides (theyre all Trumpers!!! out of the Dem side will be something to overcome too)

The problem with both sidesing the issue is that on one side the moderates are supporting candidates that actually want to make life slightly better for everyone and the other side is at best complacent with evil. Do I think some people on the left are a bit too aggro? Yes, but that is likely due to them and people they love/care about having to fight for the right to exist, that seems like the kind of thing that would get frustrating/exhausting as fuck. The people on the right however are running on irrationally, hatred, fear and bigotry

pyresword posted...

Honestly guys. Most Republicans aren't Trumpers they're just willing to throw away all ideals, ethics, and accountability for the sake of getting Trump into office.

There was an anecdote I saw last week of a guy who's friend looked at the TV at the bar and asked who JD Vance was, and when informed he asked "why is Mike Pence not there anymore?"

There are some people who just that ill informed but still vote for some reason.

There's also THIS lovely clip that's been going around recently lol.

https://youtube.com/shorts/4v5Yoo9xLyw?si=fYrjw5b4bY6NvAYG

someone who hesitatingly votes trump does just as much damage as a maga nazi with that vote so its hard not to say theyre all trumpers at that point. Its the effect more than the intention

I should say my sarcasm was only meant to be referring to the Republican politicians, not the voters.

Left-wing extremists are as wrong as right-wing extremists if we assume their views serve as a mirror of each other - e.g. if the former hate men and/or white people. They are still not as bad.

I pulled an LMS and discovered something on reddit for the first time. This might actually be a great election-time controversy that would destroy Trump with his remaining base (family evangelicals)
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1ffsfg7/not_melanie_trump/

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Left-wing extremists are as wrong as right-wing extremists if we assume their views serve as a mirror of each other - e.g. if the former hate men and/or white people. They are still not as bad.

So the thing you have to understand is that " left-wing extremists" make up a significantly smaller percentage of people on the left than right-wing extremists do on the right

They are used as a boogeyman and propaganda to coerce people from actually looking at leftist policies

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Alternatively, I hope if she does that a whole bunch of Dems don't get furious if she agrees to potentially reasonable non-Trump Republican legislature. It's a needle she has to thread.

Biden and her already did the bipartisan IRA and border bills. They are very much in the "across the aisle with Republicans" zone already. Of course leftists are mad about it but no one listened to them before and no one will listen to them now.

My favorite conservative policy of theirs is actually raising interest rates. Republicans have been giving lip service to that for decades and Biden actually did it.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

So the thing you have to understand is that " left-wing extremists" make up a significantly smaller percentage of people on the left than right-wing extremists do on the right

They are used as a boogeyman and propaganda to coerce people from actually looking at leftist policies

That was actually my point. Equally wrong but not equally bad.

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Tbh I think had Biden been the Democratic nominee in 2016 he wouldve lost, and in that world Hillary Clinton probably wins the 2020 election and looks good for two terms.

Honestly we cant discount the influence that sexism had on the election so in the same position Biden might have won.

foolm0r0n posted...

Biden and her already did the bipartisan IRA and border bills.

The bipartisan IRA (which no Republicans voted for) and border bill (which Republicans killed)? Apparently I don't understand what the word "bipartisan" means. Could someone explain it to me?

El Oh Fucking El

https://twitter.com/TheGoodLiars/status/1834613637882782144?t=YxbqKuj1uyKBosGTdginPw&s=19

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Honestly we cant discount the influence that sexism had on the election so in the same position Biden might have won.

The only way I can see sexism having manifested in such a way in 2016 was because a man couldnt have possibly been in the same position as Hillary Clinton. Plus theres a good possibility a woman will prevail against the same sexist POS that Hillary lost to in a few months.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1834625221589954928?t=KIGVfRC4Odl3C_9uggcO0A&s=19

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Tbh I think had Biden been the Democratic nominee in 2016 he wouldve lost, and in that world Hillary Clinton probably wins the 2020 election and looks good for two terms.

cheat sheet: do not bring up the 2016 election at all in any context

UshiromiyaEva posted...

If these people can't win when Trump is actively supporting them and running, what the hell are they gonna do without him?

Go nuts and wait until Barron becomes a Trump lookalike to pretend he's like the second coming of their Jesus.

I saw his grandson, er, son, and it's not hard to see that he's trying to make Barron look like him.

Comical at this point.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1834639404649812392?t=inCZkpgDJ-YCfqeoKPludw&s=19

It's OK to call them all Trumpers now. I fully agree if they're voting Trump the damage is the same.

The concern is when the Republican party runs someone else Republican if they're painted as Trumplike when they're not

If you dehumanize the other side too much it starts to feel better to just continue to do that rather than try to understand anything. Especially when you've got rhetoric like IGCD's "it's not bad to do this because they're so bad" starting to take root.

I am concerned about the state of politics but it's not because I think there's a line of MAGAfolk going to take political offices by storm if Trump wins/loses. I just think the risk is that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy a bit and both sides will become increasingly radicalized as each accuses the other of being more and more ridiculous.

MAGAts seems to be the preferred derogatory term nowadays.

There is no reality that the GOP just whimpers back to normal and stops raging against the existence of trans people.

Lopen posted...

like IGCD's "it's not bad to do this because they're so bad"

Uh, what?

IfGodCouldDie posted...

The problem with both sidesing the issue is that on one side the moderates are supporting candidates that actually want to make life slightly better for everyone and the other side is at best complacent with evil. Do I think some people on the left are a bit too aggro? Yes, but that is likely due to them and people they love/care about having to fight for the right to exist, that seems like the kind of thing that would get frustrating/exhausting as fuck. The people on the right however are running on irrationally, hatred, fear and bigotry

This.

Lopen posted...

The concern is when the Republican party runs someone else Republican if they're painted as Trumplike when they're not

We already had proto-Trumps in W and Reagan, and both arguably did more damage than Trump as well. I'd be surprised if the Republican party ran someone completely not Trumplike anytime in the near future.

Grimlyn posted...

There is no reality that the GOP just whimpers back to normal and stops raging against the existence of trans people.

I think it's possible.

Your perception being that this happened probably impossible until it's WAY better because there will always be examples of terrible things and it's a good coping mechanism to assume you're as persecuted as possible.

But I think it's possible things will notably improve on the whole if Kamala Harris wins and it's run on positivity like it's trying to be currently. That's not to say everything magically gets better but we are currently trending in the wrong direction and I think it could reverse.

Xeybozn posted...

(which no Republicans voted for)

Wait really

Well the border one was definitely bipartisan. Acquiescing to Trump doesn't change that.

The press conference Trump announced and stated was campaign related appears to be an ad for one of his golf courses.

Lopen posted...

The concern is when the Republican party runs someone else Republican if they're painted as Trumplike when they're not

This will not happen in the short term because every national-level Republican politician is Trumplike.

Lopen posted...

This.

So is your opinion that we should tolerate intolerance?

Do you believe that people should be allowed or encouraged to spread fear and hatred of others simply because they are different?

In non-moddable terms, what do you believe is the correct way to deal with another person that would want to see you and your loved ones killed simply because they are different?

I'd actually really like committed real answers to these questions from you Lopen.

Seeing the Republican party in full panic mode last night and today about Loomer is incredible. Multiple members of Congress openly telling Trump to get away from her. Mass conspiracy theories that Trump is cheating on Melania with her that don't even seem that off base. Despite all the posturing about the debate being rigged, internally it seems they all fear she is partially at fault for his disastrous performance (she flew to the debate with him). The story about her being with him throughout all his 9/11 stops while being a 9/11 inside job conspirator also gained a lot of legs.

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1834644325281476996?t=OLeP44KLh0JXPj9FODyBjw&s=19

IfGodCouldDie posted...

In non-moddable terms, what do you believe is the correct way to deal with another person that would want to see you and your loved ones killed simply because they are different?

Death, ideally. (Not that we can actually do this)

But you need to be thoroughly sure this is actually their belief before murdering them. That is the concern. It's easy to paint everyone with that hyperbolic brush when a lot are ignorant and a lot just care about different issues than you do. That's the concern, that every republican is labeled this when most don't really care about this "kill them because they're different" thing you're accusing them of

Lopen posted...

Your perception being that this happened probably impossible until it's WAY better because there will always be examples of terrible things and it's a good coping mechanism to assume you're as persecuted as possible.

nah, you just live in a complete fantasy land

it's really insane to believe people are just gonna flip the script en masse from such extremes they've already been pushed too. That requires heavy introspection, something that people absolutely despise to do because we as a human species do not enjoy the feeling of guilt on are conscious and will always be heavily pushed to justify our atrocious behaviour. Like you've literally just witnessed a microcosm of it with the Haitian bullshit - when presented with the facts that people are wrong in a heinous way, they will always seek reassurance. And in today's modern internet people can easily do just that because every website is handled by libertarian techbros that don't want to moderate anything.

telling a trans woman they just wanna be as persecuted as possibly like holy fuck the gall to say something that stupid in 2024, with a Democratic president that still couldn't push back against the tide of anti-trans laws that have only been exponentially increasing and every single mass-murder is quickly pulled up with false claims that they're trans to stoke a monstrous fear against us.

The good news is, demographics mean that eventually the Republican party will have to change or be destroyed. They will eventually need to try and appeal to all the groups they have alienated. The bad news is this is probably a decade from happening at least. And who knows what that change will look like, though if I wanted to get my crystal ball out Id probably say full libertarian.

It's human nature. Nothing personal. I do it too about different things.

Two weeks ago there was a quadruple homicide in upstate new york.

It was announced today that an illegal immigrant was arrested for the crime. (I guess he was arrested last week?)

This is going to be a big deal isn't it?

IfGodCouldDie posted...

The problem with both sidesing the issue is that on one side the moderates are supporting candidates that actually want to make life slightly better for everyone and the other side is at best complacent with evil. Do I think some people on the left are a bit too aggro? Yes, but that is likely due to them and people they love/care about having to fight for the right to exist, that seems like the kind of thing that would get frustrating/exhausting as fuck. The people on the right however are running on irrationally, hatred, fear and bigotry

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. - Desmond Tutu

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Two weeks ago there was a quadruple homicide in upstate new york.

It was announced today that an illegal immigrant was arrested for the crime. (I guess he was arrested last week?)

This is going to be a big deal isn't it?

situation is going to matter. if it's random it's a bigger deal, but it's not like he ate their dog.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

while being a 9/11 inside job conspirator also gained a lot of legs.

That's hilarious since I just learned she's 31 (despite looking 51) so she would've been 8

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Two weeks ago there was a quadruple homicide in upstate new york.

It was announced today that an illegal immigrant was arrested for the crime. (I guess he was arrested last week?)

This is going to be a big deal isn't it?

Repost to include links and new page:

https://www.whec.com/top-news/man-arrested-in-connection-with-murder-of-family-of-four-in-irondequoit/

Crime occurred: Aug 31
Arrested occurred: Sep 7
Lots of reporting on it as of today.

And obviously it's a tragedy that it occurred. And obviously this individual should be held accountable for his actions.

But you know it's going to be used to further the claim that all immigrants are violent criminals despite the fact that they commit less crime on average than US citizens.

Also I'm not saying you WANT to be oppressed.

I'm saying you (and every other human being) will always exaggerate the extent to which you've been oppressed.