Current Events > Hamas accepts ceasefire deal

(+) Yeah! (+)

LoZguy709 posted...

It's like you can't support a ceasefire while still thinking Biden is doing what he can to appease the wide variety of demographics in America

People who support ethnic cleansing and the mass murder of children shoudn't be fucking appeased.

LoZguy709 posted...

Biden's not the only figure at play here in this conflict

He's the US president. He has the power, with the stroke of a pen, to stop the flow of American weapons and money to Israel. He's chosen not to.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

Do I think Israel government is EXACTLY like Hamas? no. They are pretty awful, but I'd say Hamas is certainly worse.

You're wrong.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

And at least the Israeli government cares about their own citizens

Is that why they've rejected a deal for the release of Israeli hostages?

HHH_is_the_game posted...

who purposely puts theirs at risk because it helps them win a PR war

Again, that's the Israeli regime you're describing there.

ScazarMeltex posted...

Project 2025 wasn't a thing last time. Trump wasn't running on a platform of vengeance against his enemies last time. The GOP has radicalized in the extreme since last time. White Replacement theory along with other Nazi bullshit is part of their platform now, not some fringe shit like it was then. Charlottesville was an outlier for them last time Trump won. Now it's the goal. Grow up and pay attention to what they are telling you they want to do. The mask is off, the gloves are off.

If you truly believe that the mask has only now just come off, then I envy the privileged life you must have led.

Kaiser-Mazoku posted...

Oh right like how we didn't have any more elections the last time he won.......

We were like 3 people away from Trump currently being President.

LoZguy709 posted...

Get lost with that crap. It's like you didn't bother trying to comprehend any part of that but I doubt you've made any effort to do so from the beginning of this conflict re-emerging. You're the one attacking the party that would be infinitely better for the future of not just the country, but the world in general.

I'm not the one controlling policies. Don't moan and cry at me if things don't go dems way this election. At the end of the day the onus is on Biden and his administration. And if they are the ones to snatch defeat from the jaws of Victor.

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Is that why they've rejected a deal for the release of Israeli hostages?

And now we see why Hamas does it. This is the narrative that people will now believe, despite this being very far from the actual story

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

He's the US president. He has the power, with the stroke of a pen, to stop the flow of American weapons and money to Israel. He's chosen not to.

He could do that, but cutting off all support for Israel entirely would likely be far more damaging politically than what he's doing now.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

And now we see why Hamas does it. This is the narrative that people will now believe, despite this being very far from the actual story

I suppose that's one way of looking at it, if you choose to imagine your own version of what "the actual story" is and ignore the all the months (and decades) of the Israeli government demonstrating that they prioritise causing Palestinian deaths over preventing Israeli ones...

HHH_is_the_game posted...

He could do that, but cutting off all support for Israel entirely would likely be far more damaging politically than what he's doing now.

Maybe that's true (though I doubt it), but that doesn't matter because it would never come to that - if the US president merely picked up the phone and threatened such a thing, Israel would stop what they're doing. That's not speculation, it's what's actually happened in the past more than once. Even Reagan did this, and it worked - and we really should not be in a situation where Ronald bloody Reagan has the moral high ground over a Democrat president.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

And now we see why Hamas does it. This is the narrative that people will now believe, despite this being very far from the actual story

Yeah, yeah, you're an expert on immediately believing information if it confirms your preconceived notions.

We know.

Kaiser-Mazoku posted...

If you truly believe that the mask has only now just come off, then I envy the privileged life you must have led.

There is a difference between the shit they've pulled in the past and openly coordinating with Nazis and staging a coup.

DrizztLink posted...

Yeah, yeah, you're an expert on immediately believing information if it confirms your preconceived notions.

We know.

You're right on this, I fall victim to it too. at least I can admit it. We are far too quick to believe the side we want to believe. We should all try to be careful .

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Maybe that's true (though I doubt it), but that doesn't matter because it would never come to that - if the US president merely picked up the phone and threatened such a thing, Israel would stop what they're doing. That's not speculation, it's what's actually happened in the past more than once. Even Reagan did this, and it worked - and we really should not be in a situation where Ronald bloody Reagan has the moral high ground over a Democrat president.

It's a fair point and I respect your viewpoint

HHH_is_the_game posted...

You're right on this, I fall victim to it too. at least I can admit it. We are far too quick to believe the side we want to believe. We should all try to be careful .

This shit is so funny, every time you get called out you immediately go "both sides amirite?"

Imagine trying to both sides an ongoing genocide.

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Maybe that's true (though I doubt it), but that doesn't matter because it would never come to that - if the US president merely picked up the phone and threatened such a thing, Israel would stop what they're doing. That's not speculation, it's what's actually happened in the past more than once. Even Reagan did this, and it worked - and we really should not be in a situation where Ronald bloody Reagan has the moral high ground over a Democrat president.

Israel was a much poorer country with less military industry back then than they are now.

ScazarMeltex posted...

There is a difference between the shit they've pulled in the past and openly coordinating with Nazis and staging a coup.

If Trump wins and we fall into oppressive authoritarian rule, I owe you a Coke. Deal?

Kaiser-Mazoku posted...

If Trump wins and we fall into oppressive authoritarian rule, I owe you a Coke. Deal?

Not on him. Or me. It will 100% be on Biden Admin. This game is there's to lose and they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink into losing.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

You're right on this, I fall victim to it too. at least I can admit it.

Are you planning on actually addressing that issue, or is hand-wringing about it and then changing nothing considered enough personal growth to get by?

You're trying to assign blame, as if it will still matter if Trump has his way.

No one being dragged into unmarked vans are going to be thinking "Why did Biden do this?".

Umbreon posted...

You're trying to assign blame, as if it will still matter if Trump has his way.

No one being dragged into unmarked vans are going to be thinking "Why did Biden do this?".

Oh it matters. Good to know who brought us into this fascist hell hole than to not know.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

You're right on this, I fall victim to it too. at least I can admit it. We are far too quick to believe the side we want to believe. We should all try to be careful .

"We should all be careful as I ignore this sentence I just made in my next post!"

DrizztLink posted...

Are you planning on actually addressing that issue, or is hand-wringing about it and then changing nothing considered enough personal growth to get by?

I mean, all you can do is try to look at all of the information, and not be too quick to believe what you read. But some of it is a limitation of the world we live in. Social media makes this insane. There is so much information and depending on what you read it's a whole different world out there.

Murphiroth posted...

Imagine trying to both sides an ongoing genocide.

Im sorry but if you just want to ignore Hamas's role in this then the conjecture is pointless. Any question about peace in the region obviously includes what happens with Hamas. Israel didn't just wake up one day and decide to commit genocide for fun. All the events we see are coming from decades of bloody conflict and spiraling violence. So if you want to say both sides are awful fine. But it's impossible to not talk about both sides because there will not be peace without discussing both sides. Israel can stop tomorrow and that would be great, but it will not solve anything, Hamas still has hostages, and the situation that led to this won't have changed at all. If Hamas goes and attacks again, then what happens? We're back where we started

And yes we both need to do this because people in this topic think that the story is Hamas tried to make a good faith peace deal and then the pure evil Israel rejected it, and that is just not the truth, they are ignoring Hamas's actions and intentions completely to paint a picture of events that is not true to reality, and if you want to get to actual peace, you need to deal with both sides of the issue.

Sandalorn posted...

"We should all be careful as I ignore this sentence I just made in my next post!"

My next post was admitting the fair point that another poster made.

luigi33 posted...

Not on him. Or me. It will 100% be on Biden Admin. This game is there's to lose and they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink into losing.

What if during post election polls, a very large portion of people said they did not vote for Biden due to not enough support of Israel

emblem-man posted...

What if during post election polls, a very large portion of people said they did not vote for Biden due to not enough support of Israel

Those people were going to vote Trump either way.

luigi33 posted...

Oh it matters. Good to know who brought us into this fascist hell hole than to not know.

The fascists are the ones who will do it. You can point out what you think helped that along if you like. Maybe "I told you so" makes for a good epitaph.

Well, I'll certainly vote against them in November. For what little I can do.

The truth is Biden is screwed no matter what he does. His party is split and if he supports Israel, he angers the progressives, and if he cuts off aid for Israel then he angers the moderates. So it will be a very tight line to walk to try to not hand Trump the election. The party is divided and fighting amongst itself

From a purely strategic point of view, the safer view is probably supporting Israel and pandering to the moderates who are more likely to switch to Trump or not vote (the progressives hate Trump more than anything).

But from a morality point of view, that is a different question.

HHH_is_the_game posted...

The truth is Biden is screwed no matter what he does. His party is split and if he supports Israel, he angers the progressives, and if he cuts off aid for Israel then he angers the moderates. So it will be a very tight line to walk to try to not hand Trump the election. The party is divided and fighting amongst itself

From a purely strategic point of view, the safer view is probably supporting Israel and pandering to the moderates who are more likely to switch to Trump or not vote (the progressives hate Trump more than anything).

But from a morality point of view, that is a different question.

The thing is, both the moderates and left are hating Biden for trying to walk the middle.
The left dislikes the performative Israel critique while sending weapons, and the right/moderates dislikes that he's making performative Israel critiques despite sending the weapons.

Both want him to go all the way in both words and actions. At some point, he just has to choose a lane.

The question is, will the left vote for him in large numbers if we change Israel policy at this point?
Is it enough to just not send weapons anymore? Or do they want a complete cutoff of everything?

emblem-man posted...

Do we have numbers for how many Hamas members have been killed?

Real numbers?
No.
Israel counts every adult male as Hamas members.

emblem-man posted...

The thing is, both the moderates and left are hating Biden for trying to walk the middle.
The left dislikes the performative Israel critique while sending weapons, and the right/moderates dislikes that he's making performative Israel critiques despite sending the weapons.

Both want him to go all the way in both words and actions. At some point, he just has to choose a lane.

The question is, will the left vote for him in large numbers if we change Israel policy at this point?
Is it enough to just not send weapons anymore? Or do they want a complete cutoff of everything?

You aren't wrong, he is kind of making both sides angry at this point, and not fully appealing to any.

Foppe posted...

Real numbers?
No.
Israel counts every adult male as Hamas members.

Quick Google looks to be that they claim 10-13k or so

They used to report how many females that had died as well, wonder when they stopped with that.

Kaiser-Mazoku posted...

If Trump wins and we fall into oppressive authoritarian rule, I owe you a Coke. Deal?

Fair. If they have them in whatever camp for "politically unrealiable" I end up in.

ScazarMeltex posted...

Fair. If they have them in whatever camp for "politically unrealiable" I end up in.

Probably only have diet in those

ironman2009 posted...

Probably only have diet in those

Probably fucking Diet Fanta honestly. Fanta originated in Germany as a Coca-Cola alternative in 1941 due to the American trade embargo of Nazi Germany.

Has Israel said what about Hamas' ceasefire was unacceptable? I keep seeing vague statements of "that's not what we discussed" but I can't find specifics.

bfslick50 posted...

Has Israel said what about Hamas' ceasefire was unacceptable? I keep seeing vague statements of "that's not what we discussed" but I can't find specifics.

Israel outlined their issues with the current ceasefire text:
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-68963839?src_origin=BBCS_BBC

We can bring you more now on the Israeli position on the ceasefire deal offered by Qatari and Egyptian mediators, which Hamas said yesterday it was prepared to accept.

An Israeli official briefed on the talks says a mid-level Israeli delegation is due to hold talks in Cairo this evening.

The delegation is there to see if they can negotiate some "new answers", the official says.

According to the official, there are four aspects of the proposal that Hamas has agreed to which Israel takes issue with:

--The document refers to the end of the war, described as a permanent ceasefire, according to the official
--They believe it would see female soldiers released too late in the process
--They say the document references a contingency that if 33 living hostages cannot be found for the first phase, then bodies can be substituted instead, which the Israeli official said was unacceptable
--Israel believes it would be obliged to release an agreed number of prisoners from a list that Hamas will provide, with no power of veto for any individual case

A reminder - we have not had confirmation from Hamas or the mediators as to what is included in the deal currently on the table. We do know that Israel also already dismissed it as "far from meeting" its "core demands".

HHH_is_the_game posted...

Of course Israel didn't accept the ceasefire, the ceasefire was meant to be un-acceptable, so that way Israel can be accused of rejecting it and attacking anyway.

A number of people have said this would be over if the hostages are relased. So can your side stop saying that now?

Also it was the deadliest year for innocent Pals before the attack. You said we want peace in another post. How is that peace. Israel blow innocent people up. Gun down AMERICAN reporters and to you that is fine?

Something I'll point out that might get lost in the noise, but if Hamas is trying to put in a contingency that allows them to return corpses if they can't find enough people for the first round of exchanges, there's a reasonable chance that the number of surviving hostages in total is now less than 30. It's either that, or they're hoping to pull a bait and switch where they return bodies and then after the ceasefire is over they announce that they're still holding hostages.

cjsdowg posted...

A number of people have said this would be over if the hostages are relased. So can your side stop saying that now?

Also it was the deadliest year for innocent Pals before the attack. You said we want peace in another post. How is that peace. Israel blow innocent people up. Gun down AMERICAN reporters and to you that is fine?

I hear a combination of "if they release all hostages " or "if they release all hostages and turn themselves in"

But yeah, the issue is Israel thinks anything less than Hamas giving themselves up or dying is a loss, so that kinda kills all the negotiations that's been happening. It's all fucked up

emblem-man posted...

I hear a combination of "if they release all hostages " or "if they release all hostages and turn themselves in"

And since Israel sees every Palestinian adult male as a member of Hamas it's utterly bullshit to begin with. They would never believe that "all of them" have surrendered. And when these Hamas members do surrender what is Israel going to do with them? Some sort of medieval mass execution? The entire ceasefire requirements by Israel are designed to never be acceptable.

cjsdowg posted...

A number of people have said this would be over if the hostages are relased. So can your side stop saying that now?

Also it was the deadliest year for innocent Pals before the attack. You said we want peace in another post. How is that peace. Israel blow innocent people up. Gun down AMERICAN reporters and to you that is fine?

I don't think he said it was fine. From what he was saying, it was that they don't want hamas in a position of control. There was another topic or post that listed the items. It currently favours only one side of the bargaining table. Which is the point, if I'm reading it right, he was trying to make. Releasing the hostages but saying we only found the body is not the humane way to go. What Isreal is doing is not the humane way to go. War is not humane or just.

s0nicfan posted...

Something I'll point out that might get lost in the noise, but if Hamas is trying to put in a contingency that allows them to return corpses if they can't find enough people for the first round of exchanges, there's a reasonable chance that the number of surviving hostages in total is now less than 30. It's either that, or they're hoping to pull a bait and switch where they return bodies and then after the ceasefire is over they announce that they're still holding hostages.

That or Hamas kills alive hostages and return bodies...

I'm genuinely curious how many hostages the IDF has killed.

Wasn't it reported they massacred a group if Israelis on October 7th that they mistook for hamas?

With razing Gaza and the mass graves found in and around various hospitals, it stands within reason that a few hostages have been killed. We already know of them gunning down the 3 hostages who had escaped and were waving white flags. But how many other deaths could have been avoided had Israel just accepted the hostages on October 9th?

Charged151 posted...

That or Hamas kills alive hostages and return bodies...

It's generally not hard for experts to differentiate between a recently deceased body versus a long dead one. They'd get caught out right away.

Of course, the flipside to that is that if the only word we have on that is Israel's, with no neutral verification, it's very likely to be a false claim. The simple fact is you cannot trust a word Israel's government or military say.

emblem-man posted...

Quick Google looks to be that they claim 10-13k or so

You don't really believe that... do you?

VFalcone posted...

You don't really believe that... do you?

No idea, just saying what I saw from IDF reports, and Hamas isn't giving any numbers.

It's obviously more than zero though

emblem-man posted...

No idea, just saying what I saw from IDF reports, and Hamas isn't giving any numbers.

It's obviously more than zero though

Well just so you know, there have been 34,789 killed. 70% of those killed were women and children. So that's 24,352 of the 34,789. What's left, now that the women and children are gone? 10,437. Israel CLAIMS they've killed 10k Hamas terrorists. The tiny problem is that the 10k terrorists is the same number of men who've been killed. And that's because Israel see every single man as Hamas by default, and kills them. Even the shirtless Jewish hostages with white flags the IDF killed were labeled Hamas. So unless somehow every single Palestinian man that breathes is somehow actually Hamas, over 90% of the "confirmed Hamas kills" are likely random ass dudes. The real Hamas death toll is probably 1k or below.

TL;DR, they're lying and murdering innocent teenage boys and men.

UnrivaledKoopa posted...

The war will end when Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza, whether that happens through fighting to the last man, or surrender. Only when Gaza is ruled by a PA-UN joint venture with international peacekeepers can the rebuilding truly begin. The sooner that happens, the better for the survivors within Gaza's borders.

"The war will end?" It's been a deliberate and systematic attempt at genocide since about October 12 and all the Jewish ministers and officials started saying there are no innocents in Gaza and 4-yo kids are radicalized hamas members.

What you mean to say is the genocide won't end until there is no Gaza or Palestinians. Because that's Netanyahu's stated goal: that he will invade every inch of Palestinian land until "hamas is defeated," keeping in mind that Netanyahu and his allies consider every male in Palestine (older than 4) a member of hamas.

If Palestine needs to have its autonomy stripped and co-piloted by a UN org, then Israel has it coming, too. If you can't trust one group of genocidal radicals to respect borders and right to exist without a referee can you really trust the other genocidal radicals (see above statements made on international TV for evidence) to respect borders and a right to exist?

Also, and I know you've been called out for this already, but, "Survivors?" The hell is wrong with you, saying something like that?

Modifier posted...

Israel can't beat Hamas with the use of force unless they intend to kill every palestinian. At this point, every palestinian is a potential member of Hamas. Even in the west bank. I mean, imagine what you would want to do if your were put in their shoes. Peace? What kind of peace can there possibly be now?

Especially the kids. And the women. Who are enduring famine. Without shelter, because their shelters keep getting bombed.

I get your point, but I don't see where hamas is going to get much of a fighting force, let alone bolster waning numbers with the populace in the condition its in now.

The sheer volume of casualties and loss of any infrastructure visible by satellite... has kind of achieved Israel's stated goal of defeating hamas. There's not enough left to support or sustain a terrorist organization in the long-term.

At best, they'll be toothless for a generation. Which is a good thing. That's a generation to try and unlearn hate and bring peace to the region. Or at least between the two countries. (Palestine should be a country. Two states. The solution has always been two states.)

s0nicfan posted...

I also don't know how "for every one hostage we return you'll give us 50 prisoners and also you'll leave and also rebuild and also we get to stay in power and also lift your blockade against us" is generous in any way to Israel.

The alternative would be war crimes and crimes against humanity charges for all of Israel's ruling elite, and the results of a conviction... and that would leave Israel rudderless with a political fallout and power vacuum.

Palestine could demand that. And refuse to acknowledge Israel's existence (even if they accepted the '68 Palestinian borders, it still wouldn't be recognition of Israel). And also no cease fire.

So, a prisoner trade that gets Israel alleged recognition, Israel the ability to withdraw without taking more casualties, and an end to rockets into settlements in a sustainable calm... is pretty generous coming from the victims (Palestinians, not hamas; hamas aren't victims) of their violence and genocide campaign.

tl;dr - Israel gets off easy if their leadership isn't in the Hague and they're allowed to withdraw without too much egg on their face

pikachupwnage posted...

Anything that doesnt demand all of the following

-Netanyahou, his War Cabinet, generals and thousands of commanders and soldiers being surrendered to the ICC for war crime trials and anyone calling for genocide or civilian death being sent to prison for a long time
-Netanyahou being sacked and banned from all public office or military positions
-Have every party in Netayahous coalition being disbanded and banned
-All land stolen in the last (insert period of years) be returned with reparations
-Israel agreeing to a two state solution
-Israel withdrawing from Gaza entirely
-Hundreds of billions in reperations

Is being exceedingly generous tbh

Great examples. Better than my list.