Current Events > Remember when people vociferously argued whether Israel had bombed 1 hospital?

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67216929

Nine days after the explosion at the car park of Al-Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza City, the exact cause of the blast is still contested.

The Hamas-controlled Palestinian authorities in Gaza accused Israel of hitting the hospital with an air strike. Israel said a misfiring rocket from the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) group was to blame, which they deny.

The US had already said Israel was not to blame based on "overhead imagery, intercepts and open-source information". The US - along with the UK and France - has not released the evidence that underpins their assessments.

And now almost all hospitals in Gaza are disabled.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2024/01/middleeast/gaza-hospitals-destruction-investigation-intl-cmd/

At least 20 out of 22 hospitals identified by CNN in northern Gaza were damaged or destroyed in the first two months of Israel's war against Hamas, from October 7 to December 7, according to a review of 45 satellite images and around 400 videos from the ground, as well as interviews with doctors, eyewitnesses and humanitarian organizations. Fourteen were directly hit, based on the evidence collected and verified by CNN and analyzed by experts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/world/middleeast/israel-al-shifa-hospital-raid-gaza.html

Israeli military has reported killing more than 140 people it said were terrorists in and around the hospital, far more than in past raids.

On Thursday, the military said it had also detained 600 people at the hospital. The Israeli accounts could not be independently verified.

The Al Jazeera news network and Wafa, the Palestinian Authoritys news agency, reported on Thursday that Israeli forces had blown up a building used for surgery that is one of the largest at the complex. The Israeli military said it had no comment on the reports.

To be fair, that first one was most likely a misfired rocket from a non-Hamas anti-Israel group that joined in on the fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi4Z06IbSek

Replace 9/11 with 10/7.

Foppe posted...

To be fair, that first one was most likely a misfired rocket from a non-Hamas anti-Israel group that joined in on the fight.

Whether that's true, my point is back then it seemingly meant something to Israel's defenders whether they were attacking aid renderers and bombing healthcare infrastructure, for a moral justification of Israel's response or at least for PR purposes. Now it's shifted all the way to "Israel has no choice but to bomb and besiege hospitals unless Hamas surrenders".

Have Israel stopped talking about underground command centers below the hospitals?

Foppe posted...

To be fair, that first one was most likely a misfired rocket from a non-Hamas anti-Israel group that joined in on the fight.

Sounds like middle ground excuse to avoid blaming on both sides.

Foppe posted...

Have Israel stopped talking about underground command centers below the hospitals?

Everyone stopped talking about it when they found the tunnels and then took the media on a tour of what they found:
https://www.reuters.com/pictures/hamas-
tunnels-under-shifa-hospital-according-israel-2023-11-22/

Even Al Jazeera changed their story from the tunnels don't exist to yeah, we all know there's a million tunnels down there, what's your point?
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/19/israeli-army-says-it-found-a-55-metre-tunnel-under-gazas-al-shifa-hospital

"It's probably one out of dozens, perhaps even hundreds, of tunnels. We all know there are tunnels in Gaza, Al Jazeeras senior political analyst Marwan Bishara said.

The problem is not finding a tunnel. The problem is the Israeli excuse and their supporters in London and Washington too that there was a city under a city.

Also keep in mind that this was after Israel revealed video footage that literally showed the hostages being taken into that hospital (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna125948) after Hamas had already declared they had never used that hospital. They later change their story that they were taking hostages there because they were injured in an Israeli air strike.

s0nicfan posted...

Everyone stopped talking about it when they found the tunnels and then took the media on a tour of what they found:

About that media tour:

But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials.

The Posts analysis shows:
- The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.
- None of the five hospital buildings identified by Hagari appeared to be connected to the tunnel network.
- There is no evidence that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

Foppe posted...

To be fair, that first one was most likely a misfired rocket from a non-Hamas anti-Israel group that joined in on the fight.

Why would it be. Independent people said it was Israel and they don't care about bombing hospitals.

Hornezz posted...

About that media tour:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

So again, we went from "haha there are no tunnels" to "well of course there are tunnels, but what about this other thing we didn't bring up before?" You also skipped over the part where Hamas denied using the hospital before Israel released video footage showing them going into the hospital with hostages on the date of the attack.

As for the article you yourself provided, it acknowledges that there was a connection from the hospital to the tunnels but only in one surgery center. It also acknowledges the witnesses, the footage showing hostages were taken there, and that there are tunnels underneath.
Here's the exact quote:

In one section beneath the surgery building, two small bathrooms, a sink and two empty rooms are joined to the tunnel.

s0nicfan posted...

Everyone stopped talking about it when they found the tunnels and then took the media on a tour of what they found:
https://www.reuters.com/pictures/hamas-
tunnels-under-shifa-hospital-according-israel-2023-11-22/

Even Al Jazeera changed their story from the tunnels don't exist to yeah, we all know there's a million tunnels down there, what's your point?
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/19/israeli-army-says-it-found-a-55-metre-tunnel-under-gazas-al-shifa-hospital

Also keep in mind that this was after Israel revealed video footage that literally showed the hostages being taken into that hospital (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna125948) after Hamas had already declared they had never used that hospital. They later change their story that they were taking hostages there because they were injured in an Israeli air strike.

The tunnels existed because Israel built them when they built the hospital.

So the existence of tunnels was never in question, what was was the propaganda that Israel kept publishing.

Hornezz posted...

About that media tour:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

And to be a little more clear, the 'tunnels' they showed off were literally a bunker area built by Israel in the past, which Israel hadn't made explicit and wasn't widely known until an Israeli official mentioned it on cable news after the siege.

They tried to pass off infrastructure they already knew existed as Hamas-built infrastructure.

Of course, whether or not there is a tunnel under the hospital is no justification for Israel's sieges and bombardment, to be clear.

The fact that Israel can just say anything and the lies doesn't matter is so sickening. I just wish where honest. We will still fund them. But at least it would not make us look like we are stupid .

s0nicfan posted...

So again, we went from "haha there are no tunnels" to "well of course there are tunnels, but what about this other thing we didn't bring up before?"

The existence of underground structures under Al-Shifa wasn't in doubt, so this is a strawman. They were dug by Israel in the 1980's. Here's the former Israeli PM saying so:

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-20-23/h_91e66ecbf3286b946f264a3b8016c37e

s0nicfan posted...

As for the article you yourself provided, it acknowledges that there was a connection from the hospital to the tunnels but only in one surgery center.

Highly selective quoting. It's not an access point from the hospital to the underground bunker, it's the bunker tapping electricity and water from the hospital. Calling this a 'connection' as a justification for a military siege on a hospital is quite the stretch.

Reminder that Israel has stormed hospitals, stripped staff naked, and paraded them around. I guess that's okay.

Not to mention shuttering hospitals with infants inside, leaving them starve to death.

Israel are the bad guys.

Let's not forget the IDF has spread manipulated information regarding the Al-Shifa raid before, even besides the Israeli built bunker mentioned. Taking their claims at face value, without third party fact checking, is just irresponsible.

IDF placed weapons prior to the Al-Shifa media tour:
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-18-23/h_1d70c190adde686e6a2b59e963499e82
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlBtJhI1fIw

IDF spokesman Hagari pointing at a calendar in Al-Shifa, falsely claiming it was a list of terrorist names:
(edit: my bad, this was a different hospital, not al-shifa)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-blames-translation-error-for-claiming-calendar-in-children-s-hospital-was-list-of-hamas-hostage-guards/ar-AA1jVEoO

Hornezz posted...

The existence of underground structures under Al-Shifa wasn't in doubt, so this is a strawman. They were dug by Israel in the 1980's. Here's the former Israeli PM saying so:

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-20-23/h_91e66ecbf3286b946f264a3b8016c37e

Highly selective quoting. It's not an access point from the hospital to the underground bunker, it's the bunker tapping electricity and water from the hospital. Calling this a 'connection' as a justification for a military siege on a hospital is quite the stretch.

And what about the video evidence of Hamas taking the hostages there on the day of the attack, after the director of the hospital denied that Hamas had used it?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-confirms-al-shifa-hospital-chief-held-questioning-2023-11-23/

Hamas and doctors at the hospital have previously denied accusations that the complex was used for military purposes and dismissed the evidence presented by Israeli officials.

You would think the director of the hospital would be the first person to come out and say that Hamas had in fact taken the hostages there on the day of the attack. Or are we playing this game where it's technically true when he said that the hospital hadn't been used for military purposes even though he had explicitly seen Hamas bring in injured Israeli hostages?

The tunnels were part of their justification that Hamas was using that location. When Israel found some weapons people joked because it was only a handful of weapons. Then they found the tunnels. Then they released the video footage of the hostages being taken there.

If the original argument was that Israel was attacking a hospital for the sole purpose of terrorizing the people of Gaza and that there was no evidence Hamas was there or using it, you have to at least acknowledge that Israel was correct in believing that Hamas had used that location even if you want to continue arguing that the damage done wasn't proportional to the level of threat currently present.

Dude is still trying to justify the attack of hospitals.

s0nicfan posted...

They later change their story

Speaking of "changed their story," remember when Israel corrected the story about the hospital tunnels and said, "Oh, those don't belong to Hamas, we built them for ourselves there," and owned up that the tunnels were actually Israel's design and construction in the first place?

ClayGuida posted...

The tunnels existed because Israel built them when they built the hospital.

So the existence of tunnels was never in question, what was was the propaganda that Israel kept publishing.

See? There we go. Someone else did remember.

I always thought it really didnt matter. Was Israel not to blame? ok. Theyre still killing indiscriminately. It changes nothing.

Sonic got drowned in this topic, I see.

I've been hearing the music get faster in my head over the last 6-7 posts.

s0nicfan posted...

Or are we playing this game where it's technically true when he said that the hospital hadn't been used for military purposes even though he had explicitly seen Hamas bring in injured Israeli hostages?

Attacking hospitals is prohibited under international humanitarian law. That protection is only lifted under strict circumstances, and even then there are rules to safeguard patients and staff:

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19/commentary/1958?activeTab=1949GCs-APs-and-commentaries

The hostages being there a month prior to the raid is not a valid justification to attack a hospital. Israel has not provided convincing evidence that the hospital was operating beyond their humanitarian duties.

So he prefer the injured hostages are left untreated than being brought to hospital?