Current Events > Netanyahu says no cease fire without an end to Palestinian state (basically)

(+) Yeah! (+)

As of... 9-ish hours before the time of this post?

Conditions:
1. All the hostages back (which I guess means the ones the IDF indiscriminately shot, which means they can't get them all back, will blame hamas, and call it a non-starter)

2. Palestine being helpless, unarmed, and under IDF control with no autonomy or sovereignty (basically more of the same)

3. The ghettoes turned into a hunting preserve the IDF can enter at-will to hunt alleged militants

Sounds to me like Irael will accept no cease fire that doesn't include the de facto end of Palestine at this point. Not when they're to the point of sniping doctors who walk past hospital windows.

Everyone is a militant, and everywhere (from hospitals to schools to bulldozed and bombed houses is a "militant stronghold").

There is no good-faith position from Netanyahu and Likud to call a cease fire. It's the slimmest of pretenses to look like they would accept or initiate one. Except not.

It's like watching the Republicans say, "Burn down the government or we'll burn it down," during budget negotiations. Except this one will result in Palestinian genocide.

And then there's this gem:

Netanyahu has said the responsibility for any harm to civilians lies with Hamas.

"We're going to bomb you out of existence, but blame the people not bombing you instead of us, who are bombing you."

How the hell are we supposed to take Israel seriously when they say they're trying to end the conflict and attempt any kind of peace?

SOURCE: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahu-rejects-growing-calls-for-cease-fire-vows-israel-will-crush-hamas-with-full-force

Anyone who still supports Israel at this point is a genocide sympathist. No ifs, ands or buts.

Sigh...he really does want to make them have the conditions Native Americans have in America, if not worst. Ugh...we really are heading to this kind of situation where the mad leader burns everything down out of pride...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFakXWml4e0

Netanyahu nearly does look like Giren Zabi at this rate...

DnDer posted...

3. The ghettoes turned into a hunting preserve the IDF can enter at-will to hunt alleged militants

This is beyond fuck up, no wonder the repugs love them.

Hamas has got to go. Terrorist organization.

Who needs enemies when the "lesser evil" is still out to annihilate?

And the world will do nothing to stop the israelis from wiping out the palestinians

Da-Etiquette posted...

Hamas has got to go. Terrorist organization.

Likud has to go, too. Genocidal fascists.

But Israel has the right to defend itself.

Dark_Arbron posted...

But Israel has the right to defend itself.

"Israel's right to defend itself" and/or "Israel's right to exist" are at this point just dogwhistles for "Israel's right to commit genocide". Note how neither point ever gets brought up outside of defending Israel's genocidal actions. No different to what, for example, "all lives matter" tends to really mean.

Trumble posted...

"Israel's right to defend itself" and/or "Israel's right to exist" are at this point just dogwhistles for "Israel's right to commit genocide". Note how neither point ever gets brought up outside of defending Israel's genocidal actions.

Oh I wasnt disagreeing. Hence the quotations.

Dark_Arbron posted...

Oh I wasnt disagreeing. Hence the quotations.

I know, but I felt it needed to be spelt out.

Trumble posted...

"Israel's right to defend itself" and/or "Israel's right to exist" are at this point just dogwhistles for "Israel's right to commit genocide". Note how neither point ever gets brought up outside of defending Israel's genocidal actions. No different to what, for example, "all lives matter" tends to really mean.

Well the region has been divided and conquered so many times, debating whose claim is most valid is a losing proposition.

mistymermaid posted...

Well the region has been divided and conquered so many times, debating whose claim is most valid is a losing proposition.

It's not about who's claim is valid; it's about those statements being a thinly veiled dogwhistle for supporting Israel's (as in the current government and military) atrocities.

If goD actually existed, he would claw through the sky and smite this fiend dead where he stood.

mistymermaid posted...

Well the region has been divided and conquered so many times, debating whose claim is most valid is a losing proposition.

One claim that I would hope would catch the ears of American Christians maybe, is that one of the deepest claims to that land is Christians who live in Gaza. I found out recently that the oldest Christian bloodlines in the world live in Gaza. These are families who can trace their families in a direct line back 2000 years to the time of Jesus

They are directly descended from the actual first people to convert to Christianity, and they have lived in that area all this time. I don't think many conservative Americans are aware of this. But I don't know if they would care or not. These Christians are now being wiped out by bombs, alongside their Muslim neighbors

And I should add, these Christians don't look white. So that might be part of why American Christians wouldn't care

Or, let's not use religion as a basis in the first place. Let's just say all the civilians living there deserve to live there in peace, with equal rights, free from the likes of the IDF and Hamas and other similar groups. Be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Pastafuckingfarian, who cares.

Trumble posted...

Or, let's not use religion as a basis in the first place. Let's just say all the civilians living there deserve to live there in peace, with equal rights, free from the likes of the IDF and Hamas and other similar groups. Be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Pastafuckingfarian, who cares.

It's about their blood. They might be the oldest existing culture that never left the area. That's why I say they have claim to that land

And I emphasize their religion only to try to get conservatives to pay attention. A republican is more likely to keep listening if they hear the word Christian than if I try to plead with them about Arab Muslims

Trumble posted...

Anyone who still supports Israel at this point is a genocide sympathist. No ifs, ands or buts.

Both sides are genocidal. The "at this point" is just that Israel is no longer trying to appear nice now and is pushing back with the same they received.

There is no good guy other than the innocent civilians on both sides. The rest are both the bad guys.

Sephiroth_C_Ryu posted...

Both sides are genocidal. The "at this point" is just that Israel is no longer trying to appear nice now and is pushing back with the same they received.

There is no good guy other than the innocent civilians on both sides. The rest are both the bad guys.

This. The only difference between Hamas and the Israeli government is a matter of scale, both in terms of resources and international support.

Sephiroth_C_Ryu posted...

Both sides are genocidal. The "at this point" is just that Israel is no longer trying to appear nice now and is pushing back with the same they received.

There is no good guy other than the innocent civilians on both sides. The rest are both the bad guys.

My point was, at one point there was at least some degree of "maybe they just don't realize/believe it" possibility; but these days there is no way anyone can still genuinely think Israel are good. Anyone still supporting Israel must be assumed to be a wilful supporter of Palestinian genocide, no exceptions.

Israel is just creating more terrorists for every innocent they kill they didnt learn from Americas mistakes

CADE_FOSTER posted...

Israel is just creating more terrorists for every innocent they kill they didnt learn from Americas mistakes

Oh, the State of Israel is creating terrorists, all right.

CADE_FOSTER posted...

Israel is just creating more terrorists for every innocent they kill they didnt learn from Americas mistakes

The innocents they kill are a feature, not a bug. Their end goal is ethnic cleansing.

CADE_FOSTER posted...

Israel is just creating more terrorists for every innocent they kill they didnt learn from Americas mistakes

Who needs to learn anything when the US just covers with them with more blank checks for weapons?

Yes splitting hairs over the details is still apologism. While Hamas might revel more in body count, it doesn't make Israel's actions any better.

Trumble posted...

"Israel's right to defend itself" and/or "Israel's right to exist" are at this point just dogwhistles for "Israel's right to commit genocide". Note how neither point ever gets brought up outside of defending Israel's genocidal actions. No different to what, for example, "all lives matter" tends to really mean.

That's not true.

We didn't wipe Germany off the map following World War II. We shouldn't be calling for Israel to be removed as a nation either. Netanayahu and his genocidal thugs? Absolutely. The entire nation? Forget about it. Every last American who isn't full-blooded Native American should be forcibly relocated to his or her ancestral homeland before Israel is wiped off the map. If they're invalid as a nation, so is America. Taking by force and defending against anyone wishing to reclaim the land is how the US came to be. And you could get rid of it twice as easily as you could Israel.

Neither Israel nor Palestine have the right to end one another. They'll fight for decades, maybe even centuries, but there will come a point where both nations coexist and no amount of hatred from anyone is going to stop that.

DnDer posted...

Netanyahu has said the responsibility for any harm to civilians lies with Hamas.

Hey, a bunch of people on CE said this too!

FortuneCookie posted...

That's not true.

We didn't wipe Germany off the map following World War II. We shouldn't be calling for Israel to be removed as a nation either. Netanayahu and his genocidal thugs? Absolutely. The entire nation? Forget about it. Every last American who isn't full-blooded Native American should be forcibly relocated to his or her ancestral homeland before Israel is wiped off the map. If they're invalid as a nation, so is America. Taking by force and defending against anyone wishing to reclaim the land is how the US came to be. And you could get rid of it twice as easily as you could Israel.

Neither Israel nor Palestine have the right to end one another. They'll fight for decades, maybe even centuries, but there will come a point where both nations coexist and no amount of hatred from anyone is going to stop that.

You're taking the post too literally. He isn't actually talking about the validity of Israel's existence.

He's saying that people who bring up "Israel's right to exist" in a debate, are most likely dog whistling that they're defending Israel.

BTW Germany technically WAS wiped off the map. After ww2, til the fall of the Berlin wall, there was no Germany. Western Germany and Eastern Germany were not just nicknames for regions. They literally were nations. That didn't merge back til the wall came down

I don't know how this is going to end, but I can't see the world sitting by and allowing Israel's government to wipe Palestine off the map. Nor could I imagine the inverse happening.

Maybe they'll reach a point where Israel will say no more hospitals bombed if the hostages are returned. It'd be like the wartime (or, sadly, war crime) equivalent of "settling out of court." Is there anyone or anything that could force Netanyahu out of office besides a coup?

Zikten posted...

BTW Germany technically WAS wiped off the map. After ww2, til the fall of the Berlin wall, there was no Germany. Western Germany and Eastern Germany were not just nicknames for regions. They literally were nations. That didn't merge back til the wall came down

So they need to build a wall between West Israel and Eastern Israel?

mistymermaid posted...

You're taking the post too literally. He isn't actually talking about the validity of Israel's existence.

He's saying that people who bring up "Israel's right to exist" in a debate, are most likely dog whistling that they're defending Israel.

Ive seen people say on this very board that Israel doesnt have the right to exist.

FortuneCookie posted...

So they need to build a wall between West Israel and Eastern Israel?

Maybe Mexico will pay for it?

FortuneCookie posted...

So they need to build a wall between West Israel and Eastern Israel?

No but I think the entire Israeli government needs to fired. They need rebuild a multicultural government that doesn't oppress anyone. Either that, or let Palestine have their independence and have the entire world recognize them as their own nation that Israel can't touch again

Zikten posted...

No but I think the entire Israeli government needs to fired. They need rebuild a multicultural government that doesn't oppress anyone. Either that, or let Palestine have their independence and have the entire world recognize them as their own nation that Israel can't touch again

Agreed.

runewalshPSiv posted...

What would a multicultural government do for israel?

Let's not beat around the bush, it is an ethnostate as far as their government is concerned. To them, anyone who isn't a Jew is an enemy. That's no way to run a nation. I don't think it's realistic to expect the nation's government to reset with a multicultural cabinet, but it would benefit greatly if it did. Or, more realistically, if the nation allowed other representatives little by little under pressure from the public. (Netanyahu has only a 27% approval rating among Israelis.)

If all power in a nation belongs to one group, other groups usually suffer as a result.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Ive seen people say on this very board that Israel doesnt have the right to exist.

The region has been shuffled between so many colonial powers, it's a can of worms to even begin discussing.

Should we return the land to the Ottoman Empire? The British? The Romans?

mistymermaid posted...

The region has been shuffled between so many colonial powers, it's a can of worms to even begin discussing.

Should we return the land to the Ottoman Empire? The British? The Romans?

The land should stay with the people who currently live there. All of them. Israeli, Palestinian, or otherwise. It's the governments that need urgent replacing; not the civilians.

Obviously recent illegal settlements are a different matter, but I'm meaning in terms of people who've lived there a couple of generations and don't know any other home.

mistymermaid posted...

Should we return the land to the Ottoman Empire? The British? The Romans?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/c983411c.jpg

FortuneCookie posted...

Let's not beat around the bush, it is an ethnostate as far as their government is concerned. To them, anyone who isn't a Jew is an enemy. That's no way to run a nation. I don't think it's realistic to expect the nation's government to reset with a multicultural cabinet, but it would benefit greatly if it did. Or, more realistically, if the nation allowed other representatives little by little under pressure from the public. (Netanyahu has only a 27% approval rating among Israelis.)

If all power in a nation belongs to one group, other groups usually suffer as a result.

I was just wondering how it would be outright replacing everyone vs just replacing the bad actors that are in it right now.

Well, someones got me blocked. No idea who #43 is.

I still would ask why demanding a safe return for the hostages is such a silly requirement for a ceasefire? I get that asking Hamas to disarm is unreasonable given that its just never going to happen unless you make it happen, and that would require way too many civilian casualties, but the hostages for ceasefire, not unreasonable?

I mean its not like Hamas hasnt already stated their intent to repeat this situation ocer and over again.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Well, someones got me blocked. No idea who #43 is.

Their name is Kradek. They quoted Post #40 and said that illegal West Bank settlements should be excluded from Trumble's proposal to let everyone currently on the land remain.

I'd quote the post, but I feel like there's a small chance it could be moddable and I don't feel like taking the chance. Sorry. Edit. Never mind. Trumble quoted them in #46.

Kradek posted...

Minus illegal West Bank settlements. Get those home-stealers the fuck outta there.

Yes, I already had edited the post to clarify that.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

I still would ask why demanding a safe return for the hostages is such a silly requirement for a ceasefire?

Hard to agree to return hostages when:

- people wanting hostages back refuse to enter into any good faith negotiations with or without hostages

- people wanting hostages back don't promise to not kill you when you bring the hostages back

- people wanting hostages back have shot said hostages when trying to shoot hostages takers, giving zero fucks

Israel doesn't seem to want hostages back. They want an excuse to keep purging Palestinians.

Fair enough

However, when I quoted you there was only one sentence.

FlyEaglesFly24 posted...

Ive seen people say on this very board that Israel doesnt have the right to exist.

There are indeed people who have said that.

I'm starting to think Hamas did the actual attack to show the world how relentless Israel is