Current Events > "We made FF16 a generic action game because turn based game are ourdated..

(+) Yeah! (+)

"Baldur's gate 3's success as a turn based doesn't count because *inserts mental gymnastics here*"

"Pokemon's success as a turn based doesn't count because *inserts mental gymnastics here*"

"Like a dragon's success as a turn based doesn't count because *inserts mental gymnastics here*"

"Fire emblem 3H's success as a turn based doesn't count because *inserts mental gymnastics here*"

"Dragon quest XI's success as a turn based doesn't count because *inserts mental gymnastics here*"

Doesn't Final Fantasy sell more than Yakuza, Fire Emblem and Dragon Quest?

I don't know if BG3 is all that popular on PlayStation either.

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

Square Enix has ALOT of "Unrealistic Sales Expectations" around most of their titles.

Unless a title makes all the money, it is a failure.

Squall28 posted...

What made BG3 great for me is it reminded me of older final fantasies. I never cared much for turnbase, but what is great about older final fantasies and bg3 is that the world and quests feel like they are designed piece by piece. Every part feels unique. Character and NPC dialogue feels like the writers are sharing jokes with the player.

Final fantasies after 10 has that disgusting MMO type gameplay where it feels like you're doing chores for quests, and it's more of a spectacle than a game.

Older FF's have the main quest be the chores. "Go get that rat tail", "go find my boat", etc. Similarly it is highly dubious to act like the newer ones weren't "built piece by piece" when FFXIII is far and away the most involved from the devs the series has gotten yet you strike me as someone who disliked it.

lmfao this looks like a shitpost ripped directly from /v/

Funny using a picture of Sakaguchi for that stupid meme as well when he just recently gave his endorsement to Yoshida for daring to try something different with FF in XVI and thanked him for it.

Yoshida never said he hated turn based either, he's a huge fan of all FF games as his MMO is pretty much a love letter to its entire history.

ellis123 posted...

Older FF's have the main quest be the chores. "Go get that rat tail", "go find my boat", etc. Similarly it is highly dubious to act like the newer ones weren't "built piece by piece" when FFXIII is far and away the most involved from the devs the series has gotten yet you strike me as someone who disliked it.

FFXIII was literally a straight path corridor for everything until the end. Then it had generic open world bullshit.

Acting like main quests are the same as the go kill 7 rats in the sewer fetch quests later FFs have is just disingenuous.

Baldur's Gate did well because it's digital D&D, not because it's turn based. It also allows you to use the the environment in creative ways, unlike FF.

Face it, grandpas. It's over for turn based FF and AAA turn based games in general.

The problem Square-Enix has is they sold off their Western studios and IP to try and get some quick money to invest in blockchain garbo and now they're stuck with Final Fantasy being their biggest IP.

Which is perhaps is currently the least relevant headliner IP for any major video game publisher.

Squall28 posted...

FFXIII was literally a straight path corridor for everything until the end. Then it had generic open world bullshit.

Acting like main quests are the same as the go kill 7 rats in the sewer fetch quests later FFs have is just disingenuous.

Being linear doesn't mean crap all for the devs not having it be their tightest experience. In fact, that is part of the reason it *is*. Stuff like the level locking mixed with the highest tuning on fights give it leagues more on that metric than any other mainline game (obviously spin-offs can trump it in a couple of cases).

Do not confuse disliking something for it not being extremely developed.

Punished_Blinx posted...

The problem Square-Enix has is they sold off their Western studios and IP to try and get some quick money to invest in blockchain garbo and now they're stuck with Final Fantasy being their biggest IP.

Which is perhaps is currently the least relevant headliner IP for any major video game publisher.

FFXIV is very relevant.

Garabandal posted...

Turn based combat needs to make a come back

Agreed. Games like octopath traveler exceeded expectations and the myth about gamers disliking turn based gameplay proves itself wrong time after time.

Im reserving judgement on FF16 until I play it, but Im also not getting my hopes up after playing 15.

The combat in BG3 is good, but not really the reason why it's so acclaimed. Same way the combat in XVI is not one of its faults even if you dont like it.

Games take a long time to develop so they went with what made sense some 6-7 years ago. Then came Elden Ring and BG3 to prove hardcore games are far from dead.

They should know better now with all the feedback they got. Keep the grand battles, but tidy up the pacing, up the rpg gameplay and you wouldve had a 9+ game across the board.

Vyrulisse posted...

FFXIV is very relevant.

I suppose but they want something more than continuing to bank on a couple of old MMO's. They want Final Fantasy to be up there with the modern Zelda's and Elden Ring and they dunno how to do that.

Punished_Blinx posted...

I suppose but they want something more than continuing to bank on a couple of old MMO's. They want Final Fantasy to be up there with the modern Zelda's and Elden Ring and they dunno how to do that.

15 and 16 were trying to play catch up with modern gaming, but were a bit late. At least 16 gets more things right and 7remake gave us hope for good party based battles. Rebirth is looking very strong so far.

ellis123 posted...

Being linear doesn't mean crap all for the devs not having it be their tightest experience. In fact, that is part of the reason it *is*. Stuff like the level locking mixed with the highest tuning on fights give it leagues more on that metric than any other mainline game (obviously spin-offs can trump it in a couple of cases).

Do not confuse disliking something for it not being extremely developed.

The thing is, I actually prefer linear games. FF13 just took it to a ridiculous level. The classic FFs were linear, but they let you explore with that catered space. The FF13 map was a literal line. All the cool stuff you see is just the background. They may have developed other stuff, but they did not develop the world at all.

JuanCarlos1 posted...

15 and 16 were trying to play catch up with modern gaming, but were a bit late. At least 16 gets more things right and 7remake gave us hope for good party based battles. Rebirth is looking very strong so far.

FF7R is the perfect balance of action and role-playing for the franchise. If the rest of the games were like that, I'd be satisfied.

Idc about FF and even I know that argument is horseshit.

Squeenix unironically has an uber capitalistic expectation for their salea figures akin to how console manbabies call any game that isn't reviewed 10/10 a huge flop.

Squall28 posted...

The thing is, I actually prefer linear games. FF13 just took it to a ridiculous level. The classic FFs were linear, but they let you explore with that catered space. The FF13 map was a literal line. All the cool stuff you see is just the background. They may have developed other stuff, but they did not develop the world at all.

Once again, an irrelevant thing. I am not making any argument that they made a game that you didn't enjoy, just that it was the most dense amount of development control that the series has ever had.

FFXVI problems to me were:

Too easy.
Too many drawn out scenarios. (I hate the one Mid section).
RPG elements were lackluster.
Trash littered the ground, aka who cares about picking up 2 Gil or the items you never need to you cause the game is easy.
Combat did not have the needed depth to carry the game length.

The combat in 16 is serviceable enough. It had other issues surrounding it that were bigger.

Still, I wish they had either used the FF7R system or gone into better action like in Strangers of Paradise. Either option would've been a better fit.

JuanCarlos1 posted...

15 and 16 were trying to play catch up with modern gaming, but were a bit late. At least 16 gets more things right and 7remake gave us hope for good party based battles. Rebirth is looking very strong so far.

I liked 7 Remake but I wonder if they're happy with the sales that and how Rebirth will do.

It just feels like they haven't gained any new audience that they didn't already have on the PS1 and PS2. This wouldn't matter if Square-Enix had some other major IP that would fill that hole but they do not.

At the end of the day these games are significantly more expensive to make compared to back then. So similar or smaller sale numbers isn't great.

ellis123 posted...

Once again, an irrelevant thing. I am not making any argument that they made a game that you didn't enjoy, just that it was the most dense amount of development control that the series has ever had.

What does that even mean? What is "development control"? My whole point was that the world and quests felt special, and you turned it into some other thing.

I just realized, why is Sakaguchi in the pic in OP?

AKA The guy who left the franchise over 20 years ago.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

You get more interesting abilities later, yeah

Squall28 posted...

What does that even mean? What is "development control"? My whole point was that the world and quests felt special, and you turned it into some other thing.

Feeling special is a vibe, not something that can replicated. It's just like saying "but they didn't add my nostalgia!": it's not a thing that can just happen.

And the "developmental control" is just another term for what I've been talking about. In something like the battle system/combat it is like how the enemies in XIII are easily the hardest overall as they have the highest control over the power level of the player and make the most use of it. It is about the time and effort put into making everything work.

I don't think it's a zoomer thing since turn based games have made a comeback in the last decade. I think it's millennials still stuck in the 2005-2013 era.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Not really. It's always a loop of mashing attacks and managing your cooldowns for your more powerful abilities and stagger meters.

I honestly think the intro is the highlight of the game and shows much greater promise than is ever delivered later.

It just hit me that combat progression in Spider-Man 2 felt better damn.

The big issue with 16 is that the setting is generic boring grimdark medieval stuff. There is literally nothing to do besides fetch quests and hunts outside of the main story. There is so much dialogue where character just stand at 3/4 and talk at eachother about stuff happening that we dont see.

I actually thought the combat was ok. It is kind of unrewarding though. Why combos? Because combos lead to more damage, and bosses are damage sponges. Encounters should have been rated and given loot based on that. I hate this stagger meter stuff.

_____Cait posted...

The big issue with 16 is that the setting is generic boring grimdark medieval stuff. There is literally nothing to do besides fetch quests and hunts outside of the main story. There is so much dialogue where character just stand at 3/4 and talk at eachother about stuff happening that we dont see.

I actually thought the combat was ok. It is kind of unrewarding though. Why combos? Because combos lead to more damage, and bosses are damage sponges. Encounters should have been rated and given loot based on that. I hate this stagger meter stuff.

It seriously blows my mind they made an action RPG with DMC style combat that goes for like 30-50 hours and you only get to use one weapon.

epik_fail1 posted...

Baldur's gate 3's success as a turn based doesn't count because *inserts mental gymnastics here*"

Okay, but is that the only reason why it's successful? Or at least the main one?

ellis123 posted...

Feeling special is a vibe, not something that can replicated. It's just like saying "but they didn't add my nostalgia!": it's not a thing that can just happen.

And the "developmental control" is just another term for what I've been talking about. In something like the battle system/combat it is like how the enemies in XIII are easily the hardest overall as they have the highest control over the power level of the player and make the most use of it. It is about the time and effort put into making everything work.

When I say special, I mean that each section is different from the other. It isn't just a flat open map.

Also look at my original post you responded to. I stated the entire thing as an opinion, and why the world design made it special to me. You then turned it to some random argument about combat and "development control."

What made BG3 great for me is it reminded me of older final fantasies.

pretzelcoatl posted...

Baldur's Gate did well because it's digital D&D, not because it's turn based. It also allows you to use the the environment in creative ways, unlike FF.

Face it, grandpas. It's over for turn based FF and AAA turn based games in general.

Punished_Blinx posted...

The problem Square-Enix has is they sold off their Western studios and IP to try and get some quick money to invest in blockchain garbo and now they're stuck with Final Fantasy being their biggest IP.

Which is perhaps is currently the least relevant headliner IP for any major video game publisher.

Selling Eidos Montreal after their massive success was really something

Kamen_Rider_Blade posted...

Square Enix has ALOT of "Unrealistic Sales Expectations" around most of their titles.

This is true. They still think its 2002 and FF brand is big enough to force people to buy a console for it.

Punished_Blinx posted...

The problem Square-Enix has is they sold off their Western studios and IP to try and get some quick money to invest in blockchain garbo and now they're stuck with Final Fantasy being their biggest IP.

Which is perhaps is currently the least relevant headliner IP for any major video game publisher.

Lmao what? Final Fantasy is still one of the biggest franchises in the industry. And it's easily the best selling RPG franchise of all time.

FF13, for all of the hate it got, still sold 7.7 million copies (as of 2017).
FF15 sold 10 million copies (as of 2022).
FF7R sold 7 million copies (as of 2 months ago).
FF16 sold 3 million copies in it's first week (they haven't released more recent numbers yet).

Other recent releases have sold huge numbers, but let's not act like Final Fantasy is suddenly irrelevant now.

Punished_Blinx posted...

It seriously blows my mind they made an action RPG with DMC style combat that goes for like 30-50 hours and you only get to use one weapon.

I agree with this part though. Real missed opportunities with the Eikons and changing up the combat

NoxObscuras posted...

Lmao what? Final Fantasy is still one of the biggest franchises in the industry. And it's easily the best selling RPG franchise of all time.

FF13, for all of the hate it got, still sold 7.7 million copies (as of 2017).
FF15 sold 10 million copies (as of 2022).
FF7R sold 7 million copies (as of 2 months ago).
FF16 sold 3 million copies in it's first week (they haven't released more recent numbers yet).

Other recent releases have sold huge numbers, but let's not act like Final Fantasy is suddenly irrelevant now.

That's what they already sold on the PS1 though. There's no growth.

Square-Enix is looking at Elden Ring, Breath of the Wild and Monster Hunter World selling around 20 million and they're envious. That's what they want. Won't surprise me if those games hit those figures with less discounts too.

The thing is it used to be one of the biggest. It really isn't anymore.

It's big enough to still be big but most publishers in their spaces have franchises that are a lot more popular.

Ivany2008 posted...

The sad part is... they had a great turn-based system in FF13. The major issue was that you could only use a single party member in combat, and every other character was controlled by AI. That same system they eventually threw in Octopath and its incredible.

FF13 was a garbage system that relied on the game playing itself.

It can be arpg and keep its identity. FF7R proves it, though it isn't that hard a concept in the first place

16 just decided to leave the identity out completely

Punished_Blinx posted...

Square-Enix is looking at Elden Ring, Breath of the Wild and Monster Hunter World selling around 20 million and they're envious. That's what they want. Won't surprise me if those games hit those figures with less discounts too.

Elden Ring (effectively Souls games) and Monster Hunter are two franchises that have stuck to their guns though. Everyone knew what they were getting into with them. Sure, they have innovations, but Monster Hunter is still Monster Hunter at the end of the day. They found a formula and refined it to a dedicated fanbase and critical acclaim. FF has been chasing trends and doing completely different shit in each entry for over a decade now.

Smackems posted...

It can be arpg and keep its identity. FF7R proves it, though it isn't that hard a concept in the first place

I do not understand why they haven't just replicated FF7R's formula. It's the perfect dash of turn-based gameplay in an action game and it handles the traditional RPG party incredibly well.

pegusus123456 posted...

I do not understand why they haven't just replicated FF7R's formula. It's the perfect dash of turn-based gameplay in an action game and it handles the traditional RPG party incredibly well.

100% agree. There's how you do it if you want to make it action but keep some elements of FF old-school combat mechanics

Maybe they just wanted 16 to not be the same, but that's a winning ass formula if I've ever seen one

OracleGunner posted...

Okay, but is that the only reason why it's successful? Or at least the main one?

Maybe not, but its still an inalienable part of its identity. Whether or not BG3 sold purely because of its turn based combat is irrelevant. The point is that its an unashamed full on turn based RPG and sold great, so the claim that "turn based doesnt sell" is bogus.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Elden Ring (effectively Souls games) and Monster Hunter are two franchises that have stuck to their guns though. Everyone knew what they were getting into with them. Sure, they have innovations, but Monster Hunter is still Monster Hunter at the end of the day. They found a formula and refined it to a dedicated fanbase and critical acclaim. FF has been chasing trends and doing completely different shit in each entry for over a decade now.

I think it helps the pitches of those games are simple.

Oh it's like Dark Souls in an open world
Oh I hunt giant monsters with my friends

I don't know what the elevator pitch for Final Fantasy XVI was supposed to be. Devil May Cry isn't even an overly popular game to begin with.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Maybe not, but its still an inalienable part of its identity. Whether or not BG3 sold purely because of its turn based combat is irrelevant. The point is that its an unashamed full on turn based RPG and sold great, so the claim that "turn based doesnt sell" is bogus.

I mean Pokmon exists. Like that shit will outlast the heat death of the universe. Turn based games not selling is bullshit, but the point of my post was, if it wasn't turn based, say it followed real time with pause rules, would it have sold less?

Punished_Blinx posted...

I don't know what the elevator pitch for Final Fantasy XVI was supposed to be. Devil May Cry isn't even an overly popular game to begin with.

Game of Thrones with more magic and a JRPG villain

NoxObscuras posted...

Lmao what? Final Fantasy is still one of the biggest franchises in the industry. And it's easily the best selling RPG franchise of all time.

FF13, for all of the hate it got, still sold 7.7 million copies (as of 2017).
FF15 sold 10 million copies (as of 2022).
FF7R sold 7 million copies (as of 2 months ago).
FF16 sold 3 million copies in it's first week (they haven't released more recent numbers yet).

Other recent releases have sold huge numbers, but let's not act like Final Fantasy is suddenly irrelevant now.

I agree with this part though. Real missed opportunities with the Eikons and changing up the combat

True about the sales. People don't ever seem to "count" it but FFXIV's most recent expansion Endwalker sold so well they literally had to stop sales and advertising over the Christmas holiday to prevent the servers from blowing up. Literally every world was closed for new characters for an extended period of time.

During that the base game sold so well they temporarily ran out of digital keys. It's weird how XIV never seems to be a part of sales conversations.

eaglei3 posted...

FFXVI problems to me were:

Too easy.
Too many drawn out scenarios. (I hate the one Mid section).
RPG elements were lackluster.
Trash littered the ground, aka who cares about picking up 2 Gil or the items you never need to you cause the game is easy.
Combat did not have the needed depth to carry the game length.

This is whats interesting to me. A few easy tweaks and the game goes up a few points. Smarter AI instead of LITERALLY having monsters just standing there. Let them buff each other, approach certain enemies on certain ways. You wouldve thought that having the easy mode rings for casuals meant they couldve done a bit more hardcore battles.

Punished_Blinx posted...

That's what they already sold on the PS1 though. There's no growth.

Square-Enix is looking at Elden Ring, Breath of the Wild and Monster Hunter World selling around 20 million and they're envious. That's what they want. Won't surprise me if those games hit those figures with less discounts too.

The thing is it used to be one of the biggest. It really isn't anymore.

It's big enough to still be big but most publishers in their spaces have franchises that are a lot more popular.

It's not the biggest, but I'm just saying that they're far from irrelevant.

pegusus123456 posted...

I do not understand why they haven't just replicated FF7R's formula. It's the perfect dash of turn-based gameplay in an action game and it handles the traditional RPG party incredibly well.

Their problem right now is that they keep making massive changes in between each release. They get some things right and some things wrong. But the next game has entirely new problems. I think they should pick a combat system and then iterate upon it and improve it.

Like, there's so much they could do if FF17 improves upon what we got. Deeper progression systems, different weapon types that change how combat feels, more variety to basic attacks beyond one 5-hit combo (I was hoping that we'd get different combos based on how many basic attacks we did before pressing triangle). There's a lot they could iterate on. But 17 could end up being vastly different again.

Vyrulisse posted...

True about the sales. People don't ever seem to "count" it but FFXIV's most recent expansion Endwalker sold so well they literally had to stop sales and advertising over the Christmas holiday to prevent the servers from blowing up. Literally every world was closed for new characters for an extended period of time.

During that the base game sold so well they temporarily ran out of digital keys. It's weird how XIV never seems to be a part of sales conversations.

Yeah, FF14's sales figures are through the roof (over 24 million players), but I've seen people brush it off with "that's an mmo, it doesn't count" so I didn't include it.

Squall28 posted...

The thing is, I actually prefer linear games. FF13 just took it to a ridiculous level. The classic FFs were linear, but they let you explore with that catered space. The FF13 map was a literal line. All the cool stuff you see is just the background. They may have developed other stuff, but they did not develop the world at all.

To be fair, old FF felt more "open" back then before the open era

I did see one idea on reddit where Clive could have different weapons and that would give you different playstyles. Like if you equip a staff, he becomes more magic focused. And then your Eikon abilities could work different depending on which "job" you're playing as or certain Eikons could just work for certain jobs.