Current Events > On Trans People in Sports

(+) Yeah! (+)

So this is going to be a weird topic, I'm less interested in discussing the debate itself right now. I've been working on a rather large project, large for me at least, tracking down information on trans people in sports and trying to demonstrate how the entire subject is absolutely mired in and resulting from bigotry.

And I have a lot of information. A lot of news articles, a few research papers but while I think it's convincing, I want the amount to be overwhelming and incontrovertible by reasonable people. I want to show even the most basic assertions have been twisted from their base points in order to serve an agenda that contributes to the ongoing genocide of trans people.

But this is really just an intro and very basic. I'm mostly testing the waters and need to find what sort of things I need to address further in the larger work. Make sure my blindspots are covered.

I was "gifted" a pretty good source recently that ties a lot of my main arguments up but it is just one example and I've had plenty of examples in the past that was seemingly incontrovertible but either dismissed or overlooked.

So this is my thesis

We have entered the second phase of the war on trans people in sports that has started to move away from just trying to ban trans women in physical sports but to other categories as well. This is not novel and merely an extension of the previous phase which was always deeply rooted in transphobia and not firmly rooted in evidential analysis. We have enough reasonable evidence to show that trans people, trans women in particular, have not had any sort of statistical significant results that makes them outperform cis people. What we can demonstrate is that the second phase's war on trans people in sports has directly mimicked the first and since we can easily and justifiably tell that the second is rooted not in scientific fact and observational analysis, we can easily say that the first phase was also rooted in transphobia.

I want to end this post with an understanding on how bigots and conservatives attack trans people in general. I've been listening to a podcast on Josef Mengel and Nazi Race Science and it's hard to ignore the similarities between that and the way some talk about trans people (not saying they are the same). Usually this involves taking a basic truth and twisting it into a falsehood and trying to make a scientific claim in order to justify their bigotry.

In both cases the aim is to make their victims an "other". When transphobe win, we aren't our assigned gender at birth. I'm no safer, no more welcome in my AGAB's bathroom then I am in the proper bathroom. When we decided to transition we lost all rights to that claim. That much even bigots will agree with even if they don't agree with it openly. The goal is to make it easier to eradicate us.

I made allusion to the genocide of trans people earlier in this post and that is not an overreaction. Bathroom laws and Sports bans are by design to try to eliminate us from the public sphere because when we are less visible we are easier to get rid of... permanently. We have started to move beyond the veil of simple "we are not trying to eliminate you". We have well known conservatives talking about how we can't be considered a genocide, not because we aren't trying to be gotten rid of, but because being trans has no relation to genes. Keeping trans children from being able to safely transition leads to higher suicide rates and more closeted trans people in the future meaning less trans people overall. All of this is by design to eliminate us and now we have things like Project 25 backed by The Heritage Foundation, other right wing think tanks and a number of actual politicians which is just saying the quiet part out loud. We want gender deviation to be considered a form child abuse. We want child abusers to be executed. It is a scary time to be alive and I am so very tired.

We are very much in danger and if you know a trans person, if you are close to a trans person, you are also very much in danger because you know they won't stop with us.

They've been predicting that trans people would ruin women's sports for almost a decade now and we've seen like one trans person actually be kind of decent at their sport.

Where are all the dominant trans athletes?

"Equality, except when I don't like it!" never was equality.

excellent post tc and i commend u. the types who would need to be confronted with ur findings, however, are not the types to acknowledge theyre wrong. best case scenario is they'll just find another reason to hate trans people

but that doesnt mean u shouldnt be doing this. because it's great that u are

Shadow_Don posted...

They've been predicting that trans people would ruin women's sports for almost a decade now and we've seen like one trans person actually be kind of decent at their sport.

Where are all the dominant trans athletes?

Fun fact, trans people have been allowed to compete in a couple different sports in the gender that best fits them for decades now. Decades.

Dungeater posted...

excellent post tc and i commend u. the types who would need to be confronted with ur findings, however, are not the types to acknowledge theyre wrong. best case scenario is they'll just find another reason to hate trans people

but that doesnt mean u shouldnt be doing this. because it's great that u are

Thanks, I deeply deeply appreciate it. This topic and the next one more or less exists because of my disgust over banning trans women competing in women's only league in chess and the surprising amount of difference I noticed from the first time it was discussed (the idea of banning trans women in chess was ridiculous) to the post ban (where people were actively defending it).

I'm hoping to move everyone back a step. Also just fuck Ron DeSantis and Florida generally for kidnapping trans kids and making being a trans parent child abuse. Can't forget that.

Yeah but did you ever think about how that one trans woman made a swimmer go from 4th place to 5th place? Or how unfair it is in fishing because they can... Uh... Reel a fish in faster I guess?

Yeah, shit's dumb and nobody bothered by trans women competing in women's sports actually cares about women's sports.

Yeah but did you ever think about how that one trans woman made a swimmer go from 4th place to 5th place? Or how unfair it is in fishing because they can... Uh... Reel a fish in faster I guess?

Saw that one too huh? Yeah, fucking wild that not even competitive fishing is safe.

This can be a frustrating topic sometimes, due to the amount of sheer ignorance and deeply ingrained misconceptions surrounding trans people. Empathy is frequently in short supply.

The root cause is that sex and gender segregation exists at all.
Even more when it's grossly lopsided into "everyone" and "safe spaces".

What is this thesis for? Because it doesn't seem academically written.

specialkid8 posted...

What is this thesis for?

CE, obviously.

specialkid8 posted...

What is this thesis for? Because it doesn't seem academically written.

Distribution across a few social media platforms and creating an easily editable and repeatable foundation for further inquiries and discussions. There are a few good sources for academics, but precious few good ones that make things easily digestible to understand. The simple fact is that a lot of this data hasn't been correlated as of yet, and so this is acting as a slice of something I hope gets more spotlight.

But I'm just one person with a budget of $0 so you just get what you get. I put time and energy into it, I have written a research paper before in the past I have my B.A in psychology and philosophy. I doubt you care about my credentials but just incase I might as well state them.

CE, obviously

Also this

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

We have enough reasonable evidence to show that trans people, trans women in particular, have not had any sort of statistical significant results that makes them outperform cis people.

There is no statistic significance because of lack of data. No conclusion can be made either way.

KitKats posted...

This can be a frustrating topic sometimes, due to the amount of sheer ignorance and deeply ingrained misconceptions surrounding trans people. Empathy is frequently in short supply.

The part that frustrates me that someone will read an article about a trans person dominating a HS sport in bumfuck Pennsylvania and say "SEE! This is happening everywhere and taking opportunities from 'real' girls!" and completely ignore the dozens and dozens of mediocre trans athletes.

There was that one MMA fighter, but that's about it.

Trans athletes were supposed to dominate all sports, but it just doesn't happen. HRT and testosterone blockers largely help.

There is an argument about bone density, but it's flimsy at best.

bigblu89 posted...

The part that frustrates me that someone will read an article about a trans person dominating a HS sport in bumfuck Pennsylvania and say "SEE! This is happening everywhere and taking opportunities from 'real' girls!" and completely ignore the dozens and dozens of mediocre trans athletes.

They also didn't give a shit about women's sports before that very moment.

mystic_belmont posted...

They also didn't give a shit about women's sports before that very moment.

Or after. Only in the exact moment that they have hard "proof" of "widespread invalidation."

mystic_belmont posted...

There was that one MMA fighter, but that's about it.

Trans athletes were supposed to dominate all sports, but it just doesn't happen. HRT and testosterone blockers largely help.

There is an argument about bone density, but it's flimsy at best.

So fun fact, trans women actually have lower bone density on average to cis women before HRT and HRT tends to bring us up to cis women levels.

This isn't in my future discussion though. Mostly because bigots just move the bar to like lung capacity or something.

There's like 100 trans athletes in sports. 300 million Americans. 100 trans athletes.

So glad I'm not the only one experiencing brain leakage from the fishing mess. x_x

Tanthalas posted...

There is no statistic significance because of lack of data. No conclusion can be made either way.

There aren't enough trans people, much less trans women who are also top athletes. It's a half baked notion entirely predicated on bigotry and prejudicial discriminatory double standards.

CyricZ posted...

So glad I'm not the only one experiencing brain leakage from the fishing mess. x_x

Did you or anyone else see the latest Boxing one? Cause that's the one that finally made me go "and I think I have my final link"

KitKats posted...

There aren't enough trans people, much less trans women who are also top athletes. It's a half baked notion entirely predicated on bigotry and prejudicial discriminatory double standards.

The problem with your argument: we have plenty of data showing that biological men have an advantage over biological women in many sports.

To you, anyone that disagrees with you on this is a bigot.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I dunno. It's been 25 posts now, and none of them have mysteriously vanished yet.
Sure, we're about 100 posts short for a typical hour-old thread about this topic, but still.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

And how we somehow lack the domination that would prove this widespread advantage.
Betting we just get fed "They don't have to win for them to have an unfair advantage" despite such "unfair advantage" not producing results.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

This post ignores that not all of those advantages disappear with hormone therapy and treatment.

And thats just the tip of the iceberg on why your logic is deeply flawed.

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

So fun fact, trans women actually have lower bone density on average to cis women before HRT and HRT tends to bring us up to cis women levels.

Curious what the basis is for this? Are you talking about trans women who had puberty blockers?

GranAures posted...

And how we somehow lack the domination that would prove this widespread advantage.

Another very flawed argument.

Professional biologically female athletes would probably trounce 99% of the male population.

Tanthalas posted...

This post ignores that not all of those advantages disappear with hormone therapy and treatment.

And thats just the tip of the iceberg on why your logic is deeply flawed.

You cant compare two incredibly different groups like that. Its entirely disingenuous, not that you give a shit.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Curious what the basis is for this? Are you talking about trans women who had puberty blockers?

No, across the board.

https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20220120/bmd-higher-for-transgender-men-lower-for-transgender-women-vs-cisgender-controls

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

LOL.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/

Im guessing you already saw this report LSGW_Zephyra

KitKats posted...

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/

Im guessing you already saw this report LSGW_Zephyra

I'm not sure this exact one but it looks like the meta analysis this article is based on I have and is part of my evidentiary argument.

KitKats posted...

You cant compare two incredibly different groups like that. Its entirely disingenuous, not that you give a shit.

Well thats certainly a hilarious argument from someone who insists on doing exactly that.

So, I see a significant lack of proof of these advantages from somebody using them as "proof" to support bans.

I thought people I block was supposed to not be able to see my topics and try to ruin them by being trolls :(

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

Distribution across a few social media platforms and creating an easily editable and repeatable foundation for further inquiries and discussions. There are a few good sources for academics, but precious few good ones that make things easily digestible to understand. The simple fact is that a lot of this data hasn't been correlated as of yet, and so this is acting as a slice of something I hope gets more spotlight.

But I'm just one person with a budget of $0 so you just get what you get. I put time and energy into it, I have written a research paper before in the past I have my B.A in psychology and philosophy. I doubt you care about my credentials but just incase I might as well state them.

Cool. I would still cut down on the emotional appeals some. Unleashing this on the internet, you want to have as many holes in your argument plugged as you can, and relying on emotional response and fearmongering just gives people more openings to argue and can completely throw the discussion off of any empirical evidence presented.

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

Did you or anyone else see the latest Boxing one? Cause that's the one that finally made me go "and I think I have my final link"

I just searched and found Patricio Manuel. Is that who you were referring to?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Yeah, Im sure your debates on GameFAQs or at the pub make you an expert on the topic. /rollseyes

And Im not claiming that transitioning doesnt affect the physical abilities of trans women. Is making stuff up how youve been winning these debates?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Yet that is what youre doing here.

There is not enough data to prove it either way.

The problem is we do have plenty of data that biological males perform better than biological females in a variety of competitions.

specialkid8 posted...

Cool. I would still cut down on the emotional appeals some. Unleashing this on the internet, you want to have as many holes in your argument plugged as you can, and relying on emotional response and fearmongering just gives people more openings to argue and can completely throw the discussion off of any empirical evidence presented.

That's fair. I mean I wouldn't lead with the genocide part. That was just... on my mind when I made this topic because of course it is, trans children are dying

CyricZ posted...

I just searched and found Patricio Manuel. Is that who you were referring to?

Yes. Specifically about the federations intentions to force everyone to only fight their AGAB opponents. Although, I need to read more about it. I think it was struck down? I hope...