Current Events > Petition demands expulsion of hs students accused of grading female class bodies

(+) Yeah! (+)

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They don't. They care about the real victims here, the ones that did it. Not a single person is like "Hmmm, this stuff could follow the girls for years and subject them to bullying and could even potentially lead to some resorting to suicide because of it."

Nope, better to give them a slap on the wrist because boys will be boys after all.

I fear the day some of these people have kids of their own.

There's no making the victims feel safe. If you are worried about shit like
Strider102 posted...

"Hmmm, this stuff could follow the girls for years and subject them to bullying and could even potentially lead to some resorting to suicide because of it."

That can easily happen regardless of if the boys are expelled or not.

ModernPost posted... What does this have to do with whether or not they learned anything?

It means that the school wouldn't be teaching them anything and you sure as hell can't expect anyone else to.

uwnim posted...

That can easily happen regardless of if the boys are expelled or not.

You're not wrong. It's just people are more worried about the culprits than the victims.

That can easily happen regardless of if the boys are expelled or not.

It is more likely to happen if it is shown that sexual abusers do not receive punishment.

Strider102 posted...

You're not wrong. It's just people are more worried about the culprits than the victims.

The situation as laid out is students outside of school were sharing pictures of girls taken out of school and rating them on snapchat. Expelling the students changes nothing about the means these students got the pictures or prevents the sharing of the pictures.

No one is saying they shouldn't be punished. Just many don't see the need to go as extreme as expelling them. It would be much different if this was going on during school hours where expelling them would put an immediate stop to the actions.

The students are young enough that it's an important time to teach them to respect their peers instead of just removing them from the system and forgetting about them. We see how awful the US prison system is and many people are basically saying we should treat children the same way as the US prison system.

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Yep. He's like the 2nd person to block me here in over a decade. Only other one was Trickfinger, so that's real nice company to have lol.

The pictures without consent and distributions another level. Otherwise its kind of normal high school conversations....

I think they should be expelled. You can't take pictures of people's body parts without consent and then pass them around. You can still punish them harshly and rehabilitate them at the same time.

The ranking thing alone isn't worthy of too much action, but the nonconsensual photos is where it becomes a really fucking big issue.

Don't people on this very board post pics similar to the very thing these high-school kids did, and talk the very same way as they did.

Lock em up!

How I'd they get the pics? Did they take them personally or just find them online? If it's the former suspend the ringleader for a week. If it's the latter a day of in school suspension should suffice.

While I don't think these boys are innocent of any wrong doing it shouldn't put their futures in jeopardy.

mario2000 posted...

It is more likely to happen if it is shown that sexual abusers do not receive punishment.

I'm not saying they shouldn't receive punishment. Something like Saturday school absolutely would be felt as a punishment.

Punishment for the sake of looking tough on crime or whatever doesn't make the world a better place. It just inflicts more harms onto the world. You need to, whenever possible try to rehabilitate people.
Going straight to expulsion without making an attempt to reform the children doesn't do any good.

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I asked you a yes or no question and your answer amounts to well I cant think of anything else. The poverty of your imagination doesnt justify the harshest possible punishment.

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That's the same sort of thing people use to justify overly long prison sentences. You can try to dress it up nicely, but it doesn't change what it is.

uwnim posted...

I'm not saying they shouldn't receive punishment. Something like Saturday school absolutely would be felt as a punishment.

Punishment for the sake of looking tough on crime or whatever doesn't make the world a better place. It just inflicts more harms onto the world. You need to, whenever possible try to rehabilitate people.
Going straight to expulsion without making an attempt to reform the children doesn't do any good.

The response should depend on the severity of the infraction. And as serious as expulsion is, its not jail, its not ruining their lives. Its a chance at rehabilitation by starting fresh at a new school. Severe yes but the infraction wasnt minor and those affected shouldnt be forced to pretend like it didnt happen.

No, this is way to extreme for dumb teen antics none of them will even remember a year from now.

ForsakenHermit posted...

How did they get the pics? Did they take them personally or just find them online?

Yeah, the article isn't completely clear on this point. It states that the boys "took" the pictures without the girls' consent. That suggests the boys did personally snap the pictures, but it could also mean the boys "took" them from the girls' social media accounts and shared them with each other. I definitely feel a stricter punishment is warranted for the former scenario versus the latter.

YoBlazer posted...

Yeah, the article isn't completely clear on this point. It states that the boys "took" the pictures without the girls' consent. That suggests the boys did personally snap the pictures, but it could also mean the boys "took" them from the girls' social media accounts and shared them with each other. I definitely feel a stricter punishment is warranted for the former scenario versus the latter.

Honestly it's a shame how many people are jumping to expulsion when the full details of the incident aren't even known. Too many people just want to punish those they view as wrong without even trying to come up with a solution that helps all parties involved.

People don't want to improve society, they just want to push all the undesirables away and pretend they've solved the issue without putting any effort. It's like people forgot they were idiot kids at one point.

Why is the school involved in this at all?

• The images were not taken on school grounds
• The images were not nude

Is this shitty behavior? Yeah, but it sounds like the school wasn't involved at all and people are just using the schools authority over the students for vengeance. I'm unsure if the picture involved were actually taken by the offending students or were just social media posts the victims posted themselves.

ModernPost posted...

The word "just" can mean different things. I thought you meant "not only punishment."

That is what I meant. As in, not "only" punishment, as in...punishment + correction, not "just punishment."

Link_of_time posted...

Why is the school involved in this at all?
* The images were not taken on school grounds
* The images were not nude
Is this shitty behavior? Yeah, but it sounds like the school wasn't involved at all and people are just using the schools authority over the students for vengeance. I'm unsure if the picture involved were actually taken by the offending students or were just social media posts the victims posted themselves.

Would it be a problem if a teacher paired one of these boys with one of the victims for a school project/science lab/etc? If yes then the school has reason to be involved. School needs to be a safe place for all students.

YoBlazer posted...

Yeah, the article isn't completely clear on this point. It states that the boys "took" the pictures without the girls' consent. That suggests the boys did personally snap the pictures, but it could also mean the boys "took" them from the girls' social media accounts and shared them with each other. I definitely feel a stricter punishment is warranted for the former scenario versus the latter.

This is the crux of it. Because if it was the latter, what exactly is expulsion supposed to keep anyone safe from? Being ogled? Because thats going to happen literally anywhere males past puberty exist.

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uhhh pardon?

Savoots posted...

Don't people on this very board post pics similar to the very thing these high-school kids did, and talk the very same way as they did.

Lock em up!

Do you actually think this is a good comparison?

Link_of_time posted...

Why is the school involved in this at all?
* The images were not taken on school grounds
* The images were not nude
Is this shitty behavior? Yeah, but it sounds like the school wasn't involved at all and people are just using the schools authority over the students for vengeance. I'm unsure if the picture involved were actually taken by the offending students or were just social media posts the victims posted themselves.

There's no guarantee the students parents are going to properly punish or teach their children how to respect their peers considering this was an issue in the first place.

It's a good opportunity for the school district to take charge to teach the students what they aren't being taught at home and providing some meaningful punishments for the behavior. Temporarily suspensions can remove them from classes while not neglecting their education and forcing Saturday classes will cut into the student's personal time and be an opportunity for the school to teach what has been neglected to their students by their parents.

Likely this will also suspend them from afterschool activities as well and those are often very important to the student and serve to be proper consequences without forgoing educational needs.

Expulsion should certainly be reserved for situations where a person is disruptive to the school that cannot be resolved by other means. There's no guarantee these kids will be a proper education if they are expelled and should only be handled if there is no other option.

Kids used to do this kinda thing when I was in school. Didn't really think much of it back then but certainly weird in hindsight. Of course, them not thinking about it is why expulsion is silly. Make them think about it and see if their behavior can be corrected. Don't resort to the most drastic option first.

This could backfire and make these students seem "cool"......

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The year is 10,000 BCE. A nearby volcano is in the throes of a cataclysmic explosion, suffocating a nearby village in layer upon layer of ash.

Person A: Wow, look at the fire coming out of that hill over there.

shockthemonkey: Yeah, the gods must be very angry at our recent sinning.

Person A: You think thats whats going on?

shockthemonkey: You got a better idea wise guy?

Person A: Im just saying maybe we should consider other alternatives before jumping straight to divine intervention as a cause.

shockthemonkey: Dont you care about the villagers!?!

Maybe Im just not cynical enough to assume that kids this age cant be taught a proper understanding of consent, why what they did was a very big deal, and why they cant do it. I also worry for the girls at the new school the perpetrators end up at because they may not feel safe either. Its not like this story isnt going to follow the perpetrators around.

AloneIBreak posted...

Its not like this story isnt going to follow the perpetrators around.

Do you think it's not going to follow the girls around and potentially open them up to bullying because they got a "bad grade"?

Strider102 posted...

Do you think it's not going to follow the girls around and potentially open them up to bullying because they got a "bad grade"?

It very well may, regardless of what punishment the perpetrators get. The school will need to be very vigilant in keeping any eye out for any such bullying.

AloneIBreak posted...

I also worry for the girls at the new school the perpetrators end up at because they may not feel safe either. Its not like this story isnt going to follow the perpetrators around.

Imo this is valid point. If they are expelled, whatever new school the boys go to will create an unsafe space for the girls. So I guess home schooling is the only solution.

i don't think its ultimately expulsion worthy due to them being juveniles. Theres no "right" punishment though either. Luckily i am not the one that decides it

The constant comparison of expulsion from school to prison sentences is so fucking disingenuous, I'm not sure how people aren't embarrassed to keep making it. People realize that getting expelled means you just have to go to another school, not that you can't go to school at all right?

Expulsion is a pretty huge deal though, or at least it was back when I was in school. I can't recall a single student getting expelled during my four years.

bfslick50 posted...

Would it be a problem if a teacher paired one of these boys with one of the victims for a school project/science lab/etc? If yes then the school has reason to be involved. School needs to be a safe place for all students.

Sure, but at no point in that scenario should the school enact disciplinary actions as no violations happened on school grounds. At best, that would necessitate the boys and victims be separated from any shared classes. Your actions outside of school and school functions, are beyond the purview of the school.

Tmaster148 posted...

There's no guarantee the students parents are going to properly punish or teach their children how to respect their peers considering this was an issue in the first place.

It's a good opportunity for the school district to take charge to teach the students what they aren't being taught at home and providing some meaningful punishments for the behavior. Temporarily suspensions can remove them from classes while not neglecting their education and forcing Saturday classes will cut into the student's personal time and be an opportunity for the school to teach what has been neglected to their students by their parents.

Likely this will also suspend them from afterschool activities as well and those are often very important to the student and serve to be proper consequences without forgoing educational needs.

Expulsion should certainly be reserved for situations where a person is disruptive to the school that cannot be resolved by other means. There's no guarantee these kids will be a proper education if they are expelled and should only be handled if there is no other option.

I agree that this is a good teaching moment for all involved. I'm just baffled by the idea that a school should have any authority to enact punishment over activities outside of their domain. Discipline should be at the parents discretion. The possibility of no punishment is not a reason for the school to intervene in a parents authority.

No.

Is the behavior creepy and reprehensible? Absolutely.

But it's not against the law. You don't need consent to take someone's picture if they're in a public place. And if the pictures weren't taken at school or on school property and shared outside of school, there should be no argument about school punishment.

Link_of_time posted...

Sure, but at no point in that scenario should the school enact disciplinary actions as no violations happened on school grounds. At best, that would necessitate the boys and victims be separated from any shared classes. Your actions outside of school and school functions, are beyond the purview of the school.

SuperSaiyanTien posted...

No.

Is the behavior creepy and reprehensible? Absolutely.

But it's not against the law. You don't need consent to take someone's picture if they're in a public place. And if the pictures weren't taken at school or on school property and shared outside of school, there should be no argument about school punishment.

Title IX exists in part to MAKE it the school's problem.

Sometimes glad I was through with school before the internet and phones with cameras were a thing.

In my day, we graded women in our minds and through conversation.

Gwynevere posted...

The constant comparison of expulsion from school to prison sentences is so fucking disingenuous, I'm not sure how people aren't embarrassed to keep making it. People realize that getting expelled means you just have to go to another school, not that you can't go to school at all right?

Getting expelled is huge. Being forced to go to another school (new social circle, new location, new teachers, new everything) can be pretty jarring for anybody. It's definitely not going to have a positive effect on the kid's development.

Expelling a student should always be a last resort when previous interventions have been tried and have failed.

Yeah, my take is that the school does have the authority and should get involved. These are students, and any actions that may harm their classmates does become a school issue, regardless of where it takes place.

I think the boys should be punished, but I'm unsure about the severity of the punishment. Again, expulsion is a serious matter - the strictest disciplinary action a school district can impose. Also, expulsion often prohibits students from attending any school in that entire district, so it could be a life-altering punishment for the boys' families in that sense. I am sympathetic to the argument that the victimized girls may have also had their lives altered and may no longer feel safe at school, but I again question the rush to demand expulsion as a punishment. Victims of bullying may also feel unsafe (or at least uncomfortable) at school. Should we expell all bullies?

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You actually don't like to conversate you just argue and think you're always self righteous

SuperSaiyanTien posted...

No.

Is the behavior creepy and reprehensible? Absolutely.

But it's not against the law. You don't need consent to take someone's picture if they're in a public place. And if the pictures weren't taken at school or on school property and shared outside of school, there should be no argument about school punishment.

This is a flawed argument as many school rules and policies are not founded in what is/isn't against the law.

I disagree with expulsion, as it seems no nudity was involved. To me, this is more akin to cyberbullying and violations of privacy. If the pictures were deliberately cropped or edited, then I could also see (sexual) harassment. All of which can (and should) involve police.

YoBlazer posted...

Yeah, my take is that the school does have the authority and should get involved. These are students, and any actions that may harm their classmates does become a school issue, regardless of where it takes place.

I think the boys should be punished, but I'm unsure about the severity of the punishment. Again, expulsion is a serious matter - the strictest disciplinary action a school district can impose. Also, expulsion often prohibits students from attending any school in that entire district, so it could be a life-altering punishment for the boys' families in that sense. I am sympathetic to the argument that the victimized girls may have also had their lives altered and may no longer feel safe at school, but I again question the rush to demand expulsion as a punishment. Victims of bullying may also feel unsafe (or at least uncomfortable) at school. Should we expell all bullies?

You assume, incorrectly, that there are other high schools in this community.

Gwynevere posted...

The constant comparison of expulsion from school to prison sentences is so fucking disingenuous, I'm not sure how people aren't embarrassed to keep making it. People realize that getting expelled means you just have to go to another school, not that you can't go to school at all right?

Nah. Expulsion is a lot more severe than that. In many states, getting expelled is by district, not just by school. And it often limits the student to alternative schools (for at-risk students with disciplinary issues), charter schools, or home schools. So continuing their education after that can be challenging and isn't as simple as just going to any other school.

And as ridiculous as the prison comparisons are, there is what's called the "school-to-prison-pipeline" where school's often have police officers get involved with rule enforcement. Which puts some students in contact with the criminal justice system early and just spirals them downward from there. I don't think that would necessarily happen here. But it is something that happens.