Current Events > an easy mode has never ruined a game

(+) Yeah! (+)

hockeybub89 posted...

There are basic features we expect all video games to have though. This isn't asking for an RTS to be a Call of Duty clone, or for a plot to be a different plot. It's more like expecting to be able to turn off motion blur and rotate the camera when in a 3D space.

And all games do have them, except for the genre of games where the difficulty is the only reason to even play them, and the defining aspect of said genre.

Adding an easy mode splits the community, and basically makes talking about it pointless.

hockeybub89 posted...

There are basic features we expect all video games to have though. This isn't asking for an RTS to be a Call of Duty clone, or for a plot to be a different plot. It's more like expecting to be able to turn off motion blur and rotate the camera when in a 3D space.

An easy mode does not equate to basic functionality. The games are fully functional, and can generally--barring horrific bugs--be beaten by anyone who wishes to these days.

Contrary to popular belief as well, you do not need to finish a game to feel like you got your monies worth out of it either.

Most narrative driven games these days include a story difficulty that greatly tones down any combat difficulty. Most gameplay oriented games generally rely on a specific balance to give a good experience. They usually start at the easiest possible and increase throughout the game as you grow stronger.

What you are asking for is a universal design choice that simply won't work for some games, or even genres. How would you propose an easy mode for VNs? How would you balance online play in certain games between people playing at different difficulties? What about MMORPGs? Do we segregate communities based on difficulty? Do we use dynamic scaling? How would you balance out progression of you choose to go that route?

A universal easy mode isn't just a choice, it's actually a very large series of choices that impacts MANY aspects of design. It's not a switch you flip.

So do people think an easy mode is just a button devs can just press and bam presto it is made or what? If a dev doesnt want to spend the time and money on it, why force them? Rather have them work on more useful stuff than an easy mode. If they want to spend the time and money to make an easy mode, great. If they dont, whatever.

LightHawKnight posted...

So do people think an easy mode is just a button devs can just press and bam presto it is made or what? If a dev doesnt want to spend the time and money on it, why force them? Rather have them work on more useful stuff than an easy mode. If they want to spend the time and money to make an easy mode, great. If they dont, whatever.

Apparently many people do.

PraetorXyn posted...

And all games do have them, except for the genre of games where the difficulty is the only reason to even play them, and the defining aspect of said genre.

No, the point of playing a game is to enjoy the interactive "story"... all of it. Just like a book or a movie.

If you are playing for the difficulty only, there's nothing that would specifically tie you to video games. For you could do extreme sports (because it's more difficult than regular sports). Or get a difficult job, like a fireman.

Focusing on video games means that, intrinsically, you are there for the story as well. So to argue against being able to enjoy it means you are automatically arguing against yourself as well.

Tom_Joad posted...

No, the point of playing a game is to enjoy the interactive "story"... all of it. Just like a book or a movie.

If you are playing for the difficulty only, there's nothing that would specifically tie you to video games. For you could do extreme sports (because it's more difficult than regular sports). Or get a difficult job, like a fireman.

Focusing on video games means that, intrinsically, you are there for the story as well. So to argue against being able to enjoy it means you are automatically arguing against yourself as well.

lol get over yourself.
He can enjoy games the way he wants and you can enjoy games the way you want. You don't decide what he should look for in games or why he should play them anymore that he should you.

GeraldDarko posted...

lol get over yourself.
He can enjoy games the way he wants and you can enjoy games the way you want. You don't decide what he should look for in games or why he should play them anymore that he should you.

If'n he's gunna tell me how to enjoy mah games... Imma gunna tell him how he's gunna enjoy hiz, ya hear!?!

Tom_Joad posted...

No, the point of playing a game is to enjoy the interactive "story"... all of it. Just like a book or a movie.

If you are playing for the difficulty only, there's nothing that would specifically tie you to video games. For you could do extreme sports (because it's more difficult than regular sports). Or get a difficult job, like a fireman.

Focusing on video games means that, intrinsically, you are there for the story as well. So to argue against being able to enjoy it means you are automatically arguing against yourself as well.

FromSoft games dont have stories. To get the story from them, you have to piece it together from all the environmental storytelling, item descriptions, etc. The story they actually present is vague as all hell for most of them.

If you suddenly make the bosses hit like marshmallows, theres no real satisfaction to be had from the slower and clunkier action combat compared to other action titles.

The difficulty and the communitys shared experience with that difficulty, which an easy mode would destroy is basically the only reason to play them.

Removing the timer and pressure from Dead Rising 3 and making it a more casual sandbox ruined the franchise.

Tom_Joad posted...

If'n he's gunna tell me how to enjoy mah games... Imma gunna tell him how he's gunna enjoy hiz, ya hear!?!

No.
Just play the game and don't worry about how others enjoy it.

GeraldDarko posted...

No.
Just play the game and don't worry about how others enjoy it.

Honestly seems like a hard concept to get for people these days. Myself included at times admittedly.

PraetorXyn posted...

FromSoft games dont have stories. To get the story from them, you have to piece it together from all the environmental storytelling, item descriptions, etc. The story they actually present is vague as all hell for most of them.

If you suddenly make the bosses hit like marshmallows, theres no real satisfaction to be had from the slower and clunkier action combat compared to other action titles.

The difficulty and the communitys shared experience with that difficulty, which an easy mode would destroy is basically the only reason to play them.

Again with telling others how to enjoy their own game.

So I'm telling you that you are wrong, and that you should not be allowed to play your game as you would like to.

It's, after all, what you want to hear. For it's what you say.

And we all know the golden rule.

Tom_Joad posted...

Again with telling others how to enjoy their own game.

So I'm telling you that you are wrong, and that you should not be allowed to play your game as you would like to.

It's, after all, what you want to hear. For it's what you say.

And we all know the golden rule.

So youre just trolling. Got it.

hockeybub89 posted...

But I have played, beaten, and enjoyed Souls games...

I don't give the games negative points for not having these things.

I felt like I made it pretty simple. Souls games shouldn't be above industry-standard, basic genre-agnostic features.

Souls games should be whatever the developers want them to be. If that's bit to your liking the industry has an inherent difficulty select, i.e playing something else..

Everyone interested in a certain game may have ceilings on their skillset.

And people with those limits can play a different game. Why should Dark Souls be obliged to cater to these players when its very upfront about the game it is?

You don't even need to balance an easy mode tbh

Maybe devs don't want their game to have an unbalanced effortless part of it. Do you think Scorsese should be compelled to release a version of the Irishman with an option to turn the movie into an explosion fest? And that'd it'd actually be very easy because he could just put in a montage of stock explosion footage?

Is there an overlap between Souls fans and conservative bootstrap types? "It's just not fair that I am out there working hard and learning, but someone can just buy the game and set it easier?" Do we not have the self-control to avoid easy ways out if they are available?

What an awful analogy lol

Tom_Joad posted...

No, the point of playing a game is to enjoy the interactive "story"... all of it. Just like a book or a movie.

If you are playing for the difficulty only, there's nothing that would specifically tie you to video games. For you could do extreme sports (because it's more difficult than regular sports). Or get a difficult job, like a fireman.

Focusing on video games means that, intrinsically, you are there for the story as well. So to argue against being able to enjoy it means you are automatically arguing against yourself as well.

I skip cutscenes all the time and yet have no desire to partake in extreme sports, so no?

An easy mode isn't need in games,period.

Super Mario : The Lost Levels doesn't have an easy mode yet isn't super difficult to beat.

If you refuse to take the time to get good at game, that's on you not the devs.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

This is one I agree on. The only game to ever do these in a way that made them not feel like a completely awful chore is Project Zomboid imo.

Mr_Karate_II posted...

An easy mode isn't need in games,period.

If you want your games to be frustrating, and you want to limit the overall appeal, I guess you're right.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

If you want your games to be frustrating, and you want to limit the overall appeal, I guess you're right.

I don't see why games should be forced to worry about these things, so yeah, he's right

Gobstoppers12 posted...

If you want your games to be frustrating, and you want to limit the overall appeal, I guess you're right.

Not having an easy mode doesn't limit the overall appeal.

The Lost Levels doesn't have an easy mode, that didn't limit the overall appeal, SMB3 doesn't have an easy mode but I'm pretty it was a highest selling video game in the 80s.

You just want your hand held throughout the game.

Mr_Karate_II posted...

Not having an easy mode doesn't limit the overall appeal.

Yeah it does.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Yeah it does.

Prove it and stop cherry picking my posts

Mr_Karate_II posted...

The Lost Levels doesn't have an easy mode, that didn't limit the overall appeal, SMB3 doesn't have an easy mode but I'm pretty it was a highest selling video game in the 80s.

The lost levels sucked, though. And SMB3 wasn't unfairly hard. These are bad examples for you.

Lost Levels performed poorly, and SMB3 has a good difficulty curve which makes an easy mode unnecessary. Easy mode is for games that are designed to be exceptionally difficult, but the makers still want people who are more casual to be able to enjoy it.

Lost Levels sucked? Now I know you're trolling.

PraetorXyn posted...

So youre just trolling. Got it.

Golden Rule = trolling to you.

Wow.

Mr_Karate_II posted...

Lost Levels sucked? Now I know you're trolling.

Yeah, it was bad.

PraetorXyn posted...

And all games do have them, except for the genre of games where the difficulty is the only reason to even play them, and the defining aspect of said genre.

Adding an easy mode splits the community, and basically makes talking about it pointless.

So games with difficulty setting have no unified community? It's impossible to talk about them? No other games are challenging?

But also everyone is telling me Souls games aren't hard at all, so does that mean the difficulty does not define it? It's seems pretty silly to say those games are irrelevant if they don't have a single difficulty experience. If the games are slow-paced boring RPGs with no identity outside of difficulty, then "anyone can break the game and one shot everything if they read a guide" seems to insult those games and undercut their identity. I don't buy that.

Stop making FromSoft out to be a special developer making special games. You're saying that Souls fans don't like the series, just difficulty.

From does make really special games tho

hockeybub89 posted...

So games with difficulty setting have no unified community? It's impossible to talk about them? No other games are challenging?

About difficulty? No they dont. Those games are not defined by their difficulty the way From games are. This is not a difficult concept. If DS1 had an Easy mode, people wouldnt have talked about Ornstein and Smough for years; youd have had one group talking about them then another group not even noticing them.

But also everyone is telling me Souls games aren't hard at all, so does that mean the difficulty does not define it? It's seems pretty silly to say those games are irrelevant if they don't have a single difficulty experience. If the games are slow-paced boring RPGs with no identity outside of difficulty, then "anyone can break the game and one shot everything if they read a guide" seems to insult those games and undercut their identity. I don't buy that.

The difficulty absolutely defines it. That you can easily make 90% of the game a joke with a little effort if you want to just means people wanting an easy mode are whiny and entitled. With the current difficulty, even if you do those things, some late game and DLC bosses will still pose some semblance of challenge, whereas with an easy mode they wont.

In Sekiro, you cant do any of that stuff either and just have to git gud.

Stop making FromSoft out to be a special developer making special games. You're saying that Souls fans don't like the series, just difficulty.

For Souls specifically, the difficulty is legit the only thing there. DS is clunky as hell compared to Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Elden Ring. Bloodborne has a cool gothic horror aesthetic, but I wouldnt say thats reason enough to play it if it was easy. Sekiro is likewise pretty much just the challenging fights. Elden Ring has the exploration aspect, but it gives you such an insane amount of tools to work with its not difficult at all until endgame.

The euphoria you feel when overcoming a challenge as well as discussing with others who have done the same is the reason to play these games, and an Easy mode ruins that. Miyazaki has said as much, so it will never happen.

R_Jackal posted...

What you are asking for is a universal design choice that simply won't work for some games, or even genres. How would you propose an easy mode for VNs? How would you balance online play in certain games between people playing at different difficulties? What about MMORPGs? Do we segregate communities based on difficulty? Do we use dynamic scaling? How would you balance out progression of you choose to go that route?

I know Danganronpa has an easy mode for its Class Trial segments. Most competitive online games have skill-based matchmaking. Most co-op games have difficulty settings.And don't some games have a thing now where it somehow balances for multiple players that are at different levels but playing together?

R_Jackal posted...

Contrary to popular belief as well, you do not need to finish a game to feel like you got your monies worth out of it either.

Imagine if you told someone who went to a movie or bought a book that they don't need to finish it to get their money's worth. Very few people say "I couldn't even get through this media" and mean it as a positive.

"This series is defined by its difficulty" and "the difficulty can be circumvented with specific builds" aren't mutually exclusive statements.

Imagine if you told someone who went to a movie or bought a book that they don't need to finish it to get their money's worth. Very few people say "I couldn't even get through this media" and mean it as a positive.

This entire discussion doesnt exist with books and movies. If you tried to make this point about movies, you'd be told to watch something else or to make your own. And frankly, that's the advice you should be hearing in gaming as well.

PraetorXyn posted...

In Sekiro, you cant do any of that stuff either and just have to git gud.

I'll be the first to say it, Sekiro would be absolutely ruined by an easy mode.

Hell, default is the "easy mode". Bell Demon and Kuro's Charm are literally just harder and hardest modes.

Tom_Joad posted...

No, the point of playing a game is to enjoy the interactive "story"... all of it. Just like a book or a movie.

The point of a video game is to have fun regardless of difficulty.

Tom_Joad posted...

No, the point of playing a game is to enjoy the interactive "story"... all of it. Just like a book or a movie.

brb Demanding all of Shakespeare be written in prose using only modern idiomatic American English

PraetorXyn posted...

About difficulty? No they dont. Those games are not defined by their difficulty the way From games are. This is not a difficult concept. If DS1 had an Easy mode, people wouldnt have talked about Ornstein and Smough for years; youd have had one group talking about them then another group not even noticing them.

The difficulty absolutely defines it. That you can easily make 90% of the game a joke with a little effort if you want to just means people wanting an easy mode are whiny and entitled. With the current difficulty, even if you do those things, some late game and DLC bosses will still pose some semblance of challenge, whereas with an easy mode they wont.

In Sekiro, you cant do any of that stuff either and just have to git gud.

For Souls specifically, the difficulty is legit the only thing there. DS is clunky as hell compared to Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Elden Ring. Bloodborne has a cool gothic horror aesthetic, but I wouldnt say thats reason enough to play it if it was easy. Sekiro is likewise pretty much just the challenging fights. Elden Ring has the exploration aspect, but it gives you such an insane amount of tools to work with its not difficult at all until endgame.

The euphoria you feel when overcoming a challenge as well as discussing with others who have done the same is the reason to play these games, and an Easy mode ruins that. Miyazaki has said as much, so it will never happen.

I've enjoyed the games I've played and I never interact with any gaming community, let alone the Soulsborne community. I definitely think they stand up beyond their difficulty. Clearly I like video games, but don't, since I never feel this sense of accomplishment that other people do, in any of them.

PraetorXyn posted...

For Souls specifically, the difficulty is legit the only thing there.

I agree with the post, but the difficulty is wrapped with an extremely shiny atmosphere and environmental story telling package. Like I couldn't care less about the story of any souls game (and I played every game in the series that came out on PC, and regularly replay them all even DS2), but I'm still curious about all the fascinatingly horrible things in these games. Sometimes it gets a bit much for me, but in general, that stuff is also reason enough to play the games. Definitely though the fact that they are difficult is the real draw. In fact, their difficulty has changed the culture of gaming such that there is an entire genre now called "difficult" that people actively seek out and ask for. Game developers notice this at conventions, people straight up say "give me something hard to play".

Tyranthraxus posted...

brb Demanding all of Shakespeare be written in prose using only modern idiomatic American English

Shakespeare was modern idiomatic English at the time it was written.

Tom_Joad posted...

Shakespeare was modern idiomatic English at the time it was written.

No it wasnt. Shakespeare was deliberately flowery / archaic for the time. He frequently incorporated words and phrases from Ancient Greek and Latin as well.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/5/0/AAZsuhAAE32m.jpg

Guys help me. I don't know what the top tile supposed to look like

I'm playing this on junior detective mode (easy mode)

Edit: nevermind I figured it out

A_A_Battery posted...

Definitely though the fact that they are difficult is the real draw. In fact, their difficulty has changed the culture of gaming such that there is an entire genre now called "difficult" that people actively seek out and ask for. Game developers notice this at conventions, people straight up say "give me something hard to play".

Its weird, because games used to just be inherently challenging, with many of the same "git gud" approaches. And nowadays those games are labelled as uniquely "hardcore" or something else to that effect.

I'm playing the game Ashen right now, it needs an easy mode. The final boss is bullshit and can kill me in 2-3 hits. Then it's back to the start of the dungeon, clear the enemies, walk back to town to refill healing supplies, walk back through the dungeon to give the boss another shot. Repeat.

I refuse to believe players got all the trophies legit, since one of them is beating the final boss with only half health/stamina.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Its weird, because games used to just be inherently challenging, with many of the same "git gud" approaches. And nowadays those games are labelled as uniquely "hardcore" or something else to that effect.

The games also used to be much shorter. Castlevania takes less than an hour to beat. Except all the restarting you'll have to do it ends up taking like 2 months.

loafy013 posted...

I'm playing the game Ashen right now, it needs an easy mode. The final boss is bullshit and can kill me in 2-3 hits. Then it's back to the start of the dungeon, clear the enemies, walk back to town to refill healing supplies, walk back through the dungeon to give the boss another shot. Repeat.

I refuse to believe players got all the trophies legit, since one of them is beating the final boss with only half health/stamina.

People have done no hit runs of multiple games, it is definitely possible.

Seeing a lot of people implying that if Dark Souls had an easy mode they wouldn't even play the game.
That's pure insanity.

loafy013 posted...

I'm playing the game Ashen right now, it needs an easy mode. The final boss is bullshit and can kill me in 2-3 hits. Then it's back to the start of the dungeon, clear the enemies, walk back to town to refill healing supplies, walk back through the dungeon to give the boss another shot. Repeat.

yeah, final boss was an absurd difficulty spike compared to the otherwise mostly chill game

The difficulty slider is what changes Oblivion to 'an adequate experience' from 'damage sponge hell'.
Not that I've ever used it, I like to suffer.

Seeing a lot of people implying that if Dark Souls had an easy mode they wouldn't even play the game.

that's funny, i'm seeing a user with two active posts now and like 6000 karma who says they see that, it's almost like they pulled out an old alt from cold storage just to shitpost. so weird right??

Fluttershy posted...

that's funny, i'm seeing a user with two active posts now and like 6000 karma who says they see that, it's almost like they pulled out an old alt from cold storage just to shitpost. so weird right??

That's a bit uncalled for. I'm neither an alt nor shitposting.

well no cold-storage-shitpost alt ever admits it. you could've been the first. shame.