Current Events > an easy mode has never ruined a game

(+) Yeah! (+)

Souls games don't need an easy mode at this point.

Cheat codes could be fun though.

Nor has the lack of one.

People have fought souls bosses on dance pads, guitar hero controllers and even one made of pizza.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ryV9_ICqupQ

Even a goldfish did somewhat good.

https://youtu.be/gM1AzDZiVOU?si=yBI1-iG4BQgYWMw1

I dont think the games are mechanically hard, just need a mentality shift compared to other games in that you cant get too greedy or expect the game to give you an easy out. Things like committing to an animation instead of being allowed to immediately cancel into a dodge is intentional.

Build choice can also matter, there are a bunch of one shot builds that arent too hard to get to early on and you can just press one button to win. Not to mention co-op letting you play with friends to get through spots.

Plus once a souls games clicks it ends up being quite manangeable until those dlc or post game areas where they make everyone a hp sponge like in elphael.

R_Jackal posted...

Now, I know there's people way worse than me, but Souls games are not these difficult atrocities that people think they are.

yeah it's weird that people bring up disabilities all the time and act like this series is super difficult. it punishes sloppy play and impatience but defensive play is very strong and it's not very demanding mechanically

i have cerebral palsy so i play with one hand and i think i play pretty well. i usually get to the top of leaderboards in fighting games and even got top scores in other games like sonic mania. accessibility options are great but i think people think that the disabled community wants the entire game to be designed entirely around them, when we aren't very unreasonable and usually just want things like color blind options, subtitles, and button remapping.

seeing all the disabled streamers out there really makes me wish i had the charisma or initiative to do that myself. i love seeing how other disabled people tackle the same challenges in gaming

LightningAce11 posted...

People have fought souls bosses on dance pads, guitar hero controllers and even one made of pizza.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ryV9_ICqupQ

Even a goldfish did somewhat good.

https://youtu.be/gM1AzDZiVOU?si=yBI1-iG4BQgYWMw1

I dont think the games are mechanically hard, just need a mentality shift compared to other games in that you cant get too greedy or expect the game to give you an easy out. Things like committing to an animation instead of being allowed to immediately cancel into a dodge is intentional.

Build choice can also matter, there are a bunch of one shot builds that arent too hard to get to early on and you can just press one button to win. Not to mention co-op letting you play with friends to get through spots.

Plus once a souls games clicks it ends up being quite manangeable until those dlc or post game areas where they make everyone a hp sponge like in elphael.

This is a good point as well. From games are often more puzzles than dexterity testers.

I never tried a Souls game cause it's too hard.

MorganTJ posted...

Summoning and magic builds let you play through the game easier - even a spear and shield lets you attack and defend at the same time, which is how I played my first Souls game. There doesn't need to be a difficulty slider.

Also if you don't think the game is "cool" or "artistic", why would you even want to play it? If you think the fanbase is actually full of awful people, why do you want to play a game with a significant multiplayer aspect with them.

Because I like them? Bloodborne is one of my favorite games of all time. Why am I not allowed to criticize things while participating in them? I probably wouldn't even use an easy mode. A fanbase being insufferable hasn't stopped me with anything before. I'm literally a diehard NASCAR fan despite being me. I've never really liked "gamers". There's a lot of cringy, embarrassing nonsense.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Souls games don't need an easy mode at this point.

Cheat codes could be fun though.

Oh, I miss cheat codes so much.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Because niche experiences are valuable, and niche experiences are inherently incongruent with an "appeal to everyone" mentality. Its not because people are too dumb or whatever, its simply the nature of preferences.

Not appeal to everyone, but everyone interested in a game's genre, world, story, game mechanics who may not be able to complete a certain difficulty.

Deutschenlied posted...

Not appeal to everyone, but everyone interested in a game's genre, world, story, game mechanics who may not be able to complete a certain difficulty.

But you can grind and summon. Who isnt able to do that? If inflating the numbers/making it so the enemy isnt paying attention to you half the time doesnt work for someone, whats a difficulty option going to do?

I do think the discussion around 'easy mode' has made the fact that the Souls games have tools within the game to make it easier. It's just not a binary selection from a menu.

The hardest aspect of a Souls game is simply figuring it out. Using a guide is easy mode.

No More Heroes 3's easy mode is terrible because you cannot take damage. There should have been an option to turn off invincibility .

PraetorXyn posted...

This more concisely states what I was trying to say.

Hes incorrectly conflating two different things. Hes using disability accessibility to garner sympathy then pivoting to everyone should be able to curbstomp every game just because if they want to.

Oh my god. Just because some people might "abuse" an easy mode to curbstomp everything doesn't mean it shouldn't exist for others. Stop putting Souls games on a pedestal. They're video games like any other.

By this argument, no games should have options because someone is going to go out there and use them to avoid challenge.

Deutschenlied posted...

Oh my god. Just because some people might "abuse" an easy mode to curbstomp everything doesn't mean it shouldn't exist for others. Stop putting Souls games on a pedestal. They're video games like any other.

By this argument, no games should have options because someone is going to go out there and use them to avoid challenge.

People defend the souls games because they like what they are. Also, those options exist in all of them--they're just not literally in the options menu.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


D) No one is obliged to buy a company's game if it's not to their tastes (story, gameplay, *or* difficulty).
E) Market a game under false pretenses and expect the buyer to request their money back.

Deutschenlied posted...

Oh my god. Just because some people might "abuse" an easy mode to curbstomp everything doesn't mean it shouldn't exist for others. Stop putting Souls games on a pedestal. They're video games like any other.

By this argument, no games should have options because someone is going to go out there and use them to avoid challenge.

Youre ignoring the multitude of ways you can break these games to the point a child's could steamroll them to contort yourself into a pretzel and screech about an easy mode, while simultaneously insisting you dont mean disabled people but that anyone should be able to beat any game they want. So, what else are we supposed to think?

PraetorXyn posted...

Youre ignoring the multitude of ways you can break these games to the point a child's could steamroll them to contort yourself into a pretzel and screech about an easy mode, while simultaneously insisting you dont mean disabled people but that anyone should be able to beat any game they want. So, what else are we supposed to think?

And? Why do you care what another person does with their copy of a game for enjoyment? If I download it to an microSD card and swallow it in a capsule... in order to enjoy shitting the game out my ass... so what?

And for an easy mode, so what?

You seem to be very upset at seeing other's obtain enjoyment from their game.

Forget Souls games for a minute. It's simply not true that the only things separating players and their ability to play any game at a certain level are commitment and practice.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what assistance they need to complete a video game, just that options can be a big help for anyone who could need them. That transcends any game.

And it seems silly to imply that basically every other game is dumb and meaningless and unrewarding.

Tom_Joad posted...

And? Why do you care what another person does with their copy of a game for enjoyment? If I download it to an microSD card and swallow it in a capsule... in order to enjoy shitting the game out my ass... so what?

And for an easy mode, so what?

You seem to be very upset at seeing other's obtain enjoyment from their game.

I like the games design as it is, as does Miyazaki. Simple as that.

Literally every other game has what he wants, so

So I guess every other game is some easy nonsense than any baby can beat and not even worth the file space they take up. Why do they even bother releasing when they're just commercial, lowest-common-denominator vapidness?

But also actually Souls games are some of the easiest around!

Deutschenlied posted...

Forget Souls games for a minute. It's simply not true that the only things separating players and their ability to play any game at a certain level are commitment and practice.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what assistance they need to complete a video game, just that options can be a big help for anyone who could need them. That transcends any game.

You mean options like power leveling, summoning help, meta builds, exploits, etc.? Yeah, weve been pointing them out this entire topic and youve ignored them all.

And it seems silly to imply that basically every other game is dumb and meaningless and unrewarding.

No, the higher difficulties in almost every other game are meaningless and unrewarding, because thats what balancing a game around arbitrary difficulty settings does. It has been explained at length how number tweaking doesnt make for a rewarding challenge, but youve consistently ignored that as well. That doesnt mean most other games arent rewarding experiences theyre just rewarding for reasons besides difficulty, which largely is not the case for SoulsBorneRing games.

Friendly reminder Souls games can be beaten by someone that literally does not touch most of the enemies or bosses because of summoning. I can't think of any other "hard" games that people bitch about the "lack of difficulty options" where completely random strangers can hard carry you for literally 95% or more of the game without any further input from you other than bringing them in. Well I can, but they're all within the genre, so...

It's like complaining that the test is too hard and there should be an easier version of it for you to do instead when you can make it a group project and then do absolutely nothing except show up and still get the full grade, while also ignoring all the other tools and prep work you can bring in to the test to get a passing grade.

At what point does personal accountability enter into the equation?

-

Vaguely related, when Furi first came out there were a few reviewers that got mad because the normal difficulty was too hard for them, but the easy difficulty was an absolute joke even for them so they were mad they had no satisfaction and they felt the devs were patronizing them (and Furi's easy mode isn't just basic numbers tweaks, the patterns change and entire phases are cut out, so a substantial amount of dev time was spent making and tuning it). IIRC they literally said that the easy mode made them enjoy playing even less.

There's no winning with some people.

developers need to take more time to find the right balance. easy mode shouldn't be cut content :)

KajeI posted...

Friendly reminder Souls games can be beaten by someone that literally does not touch most of the enemies or bosses because of summoning. I can't think of any other "hard" games that people bitch about the "lack of difficulty options" where completely random strangers can hard carry you for literally 95% or more of the game without any further input from you other than bringing them in. Well I can, but they're all within the genre, so...

It's like complaining that the test is too hard and there should be an easier version of it for you to do instead when you can make it a group project and then do absolutely nothing except show up and still get the full grade, while also ignoring all the other tools and prep work you can bring in to the test to get a passing grade.

At what point does personal accountability enter into the equation?

-

Vaguely related, when Furi first came out there were a few reviewers that got mad because the normal difficulty was too hard for them, but the easy difficulty was an absolute joke even for them so they were mad they had no satisfaction and they felt the devs were patronizing them (and Furi's easy mode isn't just basic numbers tweaks, the patterns change and entire phases are cut out, so a substantial amount of dev time was spent making and tuning it). IIRC they literally said that the easy mode made them enjoy playing even less.

There's no winning with some people.

"Actually you can just stand in the corner and have other people fight for you" is different than playing a game, but at a level that meets your skill level.

Stop treating FromSoft games as special. They're just plain old video games like any other. Everything else doesn't suck because you guys like them the most. Why would you not be critical of things you like?

I like Himiko!

PraetorXyn posted...

You mean options like power leveling, summoning help, meta builds, exploits, etc.? Yeah, weve been pointing them out this entire topic and youve ignored them all.

No, the higher difficulties in almost every other game are meaningless and unrewarding, because thats what balancing a game around arbitrary difficulty settings does. It has been explained at length how number tweaking doesnt make for a rewarding challenge, but youve consistently ignored that as well. That doesnt mean most other games arent rewarding experiences theyre just rewarding for reasons besides difficulty, which largely is not the case for SoulsBorneRing games.

Why do grown adults care if everyone is getting a rewarding experience from a game? That has no bearing on your experience and the way you play it. Stop treating video games like they're serious business. I thought we didn't like how games treat our limited adult time anyway.

I have ignored those things because I'm not talking about those things.

Deutschenlied posted...

"Actually you can just stand in the corner and have other people fight for you" is different than playing a game, but at a level that meets your skill level.

If your maximum contribution in that scenario is standing in a corner while they do the work, then that IS them choosing to engage with the game at their skill level. If the actual best they can do is nothing, that's literally a skill issue.

Deutschenlied posted...

Stop treating FromSoft games as special. They're just plain old video games like any other. Everything else doesn't suck because you guys like them the most. Why would you not be critical of things you like?

A: Lose the strawmen.
B: I (mostly) only spend time complaining about things I like, specifically because I like them and want them to be better.
C: As a part of B, I've spent more time analyzing and critiquing these games than your average Souls player has spent playing them, because I really enjoy the genre.
D: Through overexposure I've come to know the difference between bitching because mad and/or bad and constructive criticism.

So many times for these games I've seen people bitch about something kicking their ass or being "unfair" or god knows what, then come back a bit later and go "you know, I was wrong and tilted, it's actually fine and I like it now that I'm on the same page".

I think people underestimate how much the selling factors of a game's design can be diluted by "easy mode", which is fine except for the people who play a game on easy mode and then review it and criticize those elements.

Like if you have an intricate battle system with a lot of depth to it that requires strategizing going into every fight...but in easy mode you can kind of just do whatever. Or a game that prides itself in how divergent the story gets based on narrative decisions you make, but the ability to easily reverse your choice through idk save scumming or w/e can take away from that divergent story.

This is without getting into like ... "the game wants you to feel like it's hard".

Anteaterking posted...

I think people underestimate how much the selling factors of a game's design can be diluted by "easy mode", which is fine except for the people who play a game on easy mode and then review it and criticize those elements.

Like if you have an intricate battle system with a lot of depth to it that requires strategizing going into every fight...but in easy mode you can kind of just do whatever. Or a game that prides itself in how divergent the story gets based on narrative decisions you make, but the ability to easily reverse your choice through idk save scumming or w/e can take away from that divergent story.

This is without getting into like ... "the game wants you to feel like it's hard".

But what would those easy modes be hurting? How does it affect any of us and our enjoyment? Is the availability of an easy mode just too tempting for the average gamer?

It's like everyone has forgotten that they're playing video games. None of it matters. It's just a personal stimulation of the senses. Everyone gets something different out of it.

KajeI posted...

Through overexposure I've come to know the difference between bitching because mad and/or bad and constructive criticism.

It was constructive criticism, but a lot of Souls fans always have to get protective. It's a weird human thing sometimes where people believe that giving to more people requires taking it all from less.

If you're not a true diehard with the right credentials, then you're a sabotaging troll and things inevitably get to the point where it's implied FromSoft is the only studio that makes artistic works that respect and challenge the player, and every other game is kind of a joke in comparison.

Deutschenlied posted...

It's like everyone has forgotten that they're playing video games. None of it matters. It's just a personal stimulation of the senses. Everyone gets something different out of it.

If it doesn't matter, why do you care so much whether everyone can enjoy it? Why do you have to make this about ableism and gatekeeping?

Everyone is free to play the game if they feel like it, no one's stopping anyone from playing along with a guide or overleveling, or even modding the game if they felt like it. I've played games in the past where I didn't get through the entire game because I was frustrated and wasn't in the proper mood for a challenge. I don't think my experience with that game was lessened because I didn't finish it. If someone gets stuck and can't get through Anor Londo or whatever, that's fine, they'll live. It's fine to not be into a game, it isn't a big deal, despite what you think.

Deutschenlied posted...

Forget Souls games for a minute. It's simply not true that the only things separating players and their ability to play any game at a certain level are commitment and practice.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what assistance they need to complete a video game, just that options can be a big help for anyone who could need them. That transcends any game.

I think that's true to an extent, but I've seen someone be a top 1000 level player at fighting games with 2 fingers and his tongue.

Every other game does it. Souls games are the only actual artistic series that provide an authentic, intended experience?

oh, so you're not actually approaching this in good faith and just want replies. i understand.

Deutschenlied posted...

But what would those easy modes be hurting? How does it affect any of us and our enjoyment? Is the availability of an easy mode just too tempting for the average gamer?

It's like everyone has forgotten that they're playing video games. None of it matters. It's just a personal stimulation of the senses. Everyone gets something different out of it.

It doesn't really impact me at all and I don't really care that much about people wanting an easy mode (I'm more "against" it in the abstract than in practice, I don't actually have a problem with people saying souls games should have a pause button). But I do think that you're being a little reductionist towards game design/development. You can reduce it to "we're just getting stimulation to our senses" but if you're creating the game, it's more than just a skinner box with flashy lights.

It also doesn't hurt me when people watch movies at 1.5x speed while scrolling through Twitter, but I don't want to hear that person's opinion about how good the movie is.

Gamers are a very sensitive hyper reactive bunch these days.
Like touching a snails eye.

Cheater87 posted...

Oh, I miss cheat codes so much.

They are still around. On pc you have tons of trainers and cheat engine. For ps4 there's save wizard. Ps3 has game genie.

PraetorXyn posted...

I like the games design as it is, as does Miyazaki. Simple as that.

Literally every other game has what he wants, so

So you like to play a game because of someone else.

Well, then... start downloading your games onto microSD cards, eating them, and shitting them out your ass. Because someone else likes to do so.

FFS...

Souls games do have an easy mode though. Just look up the right builds, that's the easy mode. It's just obscured, like everything else in souls games.

Deutschenlied posted...

"Actually you can just stand in the corner and have other people fight for you" is different than playing a game, but at a level that meets your skill level.

Why not just look at any other game at this point? You don't want to be handed a win, but also don't want to be handed a challenge that forced the player to get better. The game doesn't want to provide the experience you're looking for, play one that does.

PraetorXyn posted...

I like the games design as it is, as does Miyazaki. Simple as that.

Literally every other game has what he wants, so

As I mentioned earlier ITT, it appears Miyazaki sees himself as kind of a "puzzlebox maker" (Himitsu Bako) for video games.

Puzzlebox making is a fairly respected craft in Japan. By no means is it something for everyone there. Those who are into a particular maker often can't wait to see what the next puzzle box will be like and the maker is looking to create the most interesting challenge possible for the 'player'. The parallels between Miyazaki and puzzleboxes seem obvious to me.

AbstraktProfSC2 posted...

For the record, FFXVI is incredibly easy even without those items. Probably could beat it just by mashing square. Dont hide hard mode behind NG+

Nobody is beating FF16 by only mashing square.

Tom_Joad posted...

So you like to play a game because of someone else.

Well, then... start downloading your games onto microSD cards, eating them, and shitting them out your ass. Because someone else likes to do so.

FFS...

No. I dont like the games because of Miyazaki, I was saying I like the games, and their designer likes them so all the whining in the world isnt going to get an easy mode. It was my tongue in cheek way of asking why this is still going.

Souls games can have an easier difficulty mode, but they should start by offering a hard mode. The games are easy enough already.

e.g. Games like DMC have an easy mode, but they also have Dante Must Die.

PraetorXyn posted...

No. I dont like the games because of Miyazaki, I was saying I like the games, and their designer likes them so all the whining in the world isnt going to get an easy mode. It was my tongue in cheek way of asking why this is still going.

And if a designer said he didn't like audio/video options, I'd say his artistic vision is a little goofy

gasgpmo posted...

Souls games can have an easier difficulty mode, but they should start by offering a hard mode. The games are easy enough already.

e.g. Games like DMC have an easy mode, but they also have Dante Must Die.

Every game needs a permadeath every hit kills you mode.

As long as its not one of those easy modes where you actually dont complete the game . And forcing the player to replay the entire game.

hockeybub89 posted...

And if a designer said he didn't like audio/video options, I'd say his artistic vision is a little goofy

You're basically criticizing a genre for being a genre at this point. It's fair to say you think it should change, kind of like how Fire Emblem became more casual, but there's a difference between advocating for change and acting like it's dumb for something to not change. Pokemon should offer more challenging gameplay, but I don't expect it because Nintendo wants a button mashing toddler to be able to get through all of them.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Why not just look at any other game at this point? You don't want to be handed a win, but also don't want to be handed a challenge that forced the player to get better. The game doesn't want to provide the experience you're looking for, play one that does.

But I have played, beaten, and enjoyed Souls games...

I felt like I made it pretty simple. Souls games shouldn't be above industry-standard, basic genre-agnostic features. Everyone interested in a certain game may have ceilings on their skillset. Difficulty modes or sliders give them the ability to play to whatever level they can. If that truly challenges them and builds personal character is completely irrelevant to anyone else's ability to enjoy the game. If they have to play on baby mode to finish games, they probably won't even know what they're missing out on. You don't even need to balance an easy mode tbh

Is there an overlap between Souls fans and conservative bootstrap types? "It's just not fair that I am out there working hard and learning, but someone can just buy the game and set it easier?" Do we not have the self-control to avoid easy ways out if they are available?

ViewtifulGrave posted...

Nobody is beating FF16 by only mashing square.

Yeah, I mean how would you even get through all the QTEs? Hell you couldn't even open a door! (Kidding, I don't actually have a problem with FFXVI, just taking the cheap shot)

That said, I think there's a big issue here of people accepting that not everything can be made for everyone. Not everyone will be happy no matter what a game dev does.

R_Jackal posted...

Yeah, I mean how would you even get through all the QTEs? Hell you couldn't even open a door! (Kidding, I don't actually have a problem with FFXVI, just taking the cheap shot)

That said, I think there's a big issue here of people accepting that not everything can be made for everyone. Not everyone will be happy no matter what a game dev does.

There are basic features we expect all video games to have though. This isn't asking for an RTS to be a Call of Duty clone, or for a plot to be a different plot. It's more like expecting to be able to turn off motion blur and rotate the camera when in a 3D space.