Current Events > It's a good thing gamefaqs abolished the politics board

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tenlaar posted...

Wanting people imprisoned for their beliefs, not their actions, absolutely is thought crimes shit.

If those beliefs involve wanting people treated as lesser for immutable characterstics no its not. Simply spreading such filth is an act of aggresion. Its essentially
Tenlaar posted...

Are you of the opinion that racist beliefs are always a threat deserving of imprisonment?

I am not sending someone to prison for simply buying into a stereotype or something.

But there are racist acts or beliefs "lesser" then a straight up lynching or direct violence that absolutely should result in imprisonment that if taught to children children, shared in a conspiritorial manner or with intent(or gross negligence) to encourage harm or cause others to discriminate or harm should indeed result in legal consequences. And in some cases simply for sharing it at all.

Tenlaar posted...

My only argument here has been that people should not be put in prison just for having racist beliefs. Ive literally been talking about the constitutional right to free speech, not that racists should be defended in any way beyond that. Youre talking to me like this about something you agree with me on.

You still haven't said one bad thing about racists or racism. Not even, "I may disagree with their beliefs, but..." You're just strictly running defense. How stupid do you think we are?
Fuck off.

Tenlaar posted...

Surely you have heard, for example, "go back where they came from" kind of rhetoric.

And if they don't "go back where they came from" - what is the next step that logically follows?

"Go back where you came from or I shall not hand out candy on Halloween to your children!"

Not to mention most of the time the people being told this are either legal immigrants, or American citizens who have family here going back generations, ancestors that didn't come here voluntarily I might add.

So Tenlaar blocked me ages ago, but it bears pointing out that he was more of a 261 fixture than CE.

Like perhaps people would have preferred engaging him on 261, but if the messages I can read are any indication, I can't imagine he's changed all that much.

The fact that 261 is now here I don't think diminishes the discussion all that much in my mind, especially if you're in specific topics about politics. Eventually, the shitposters will get bored and excuse themselves.

Tenlaar posted...

Thought crimes is not fictional,

Literally a made up term from a fictional book. Shorn, mind you, of its context.

you are proving it to be a very real thing right now by arguing that people should be imprisoned for beliefs rather than actions. You are an authoritarian extremist.

Perhaps you should choose another path of argument, here. You're clearly not convincing me, or anyone else, not even so much that you're standing on principle, since your whole argument just consists of pointing at stuff and shouting "a-a-authoritarian!" and literally nobody else is backing you up; the other body snatchers ain't coming. I actually believe in the things I say.

CyricZ posted...

So Tenlaar blocked me ages ago, but it bears pointing out that he was more of a 261 fixture than CE.

Like perhaps people would have preferred engaging him on 261, but if the messages I can read are any indication, I can't imagine he's changed all that much.

The fact that 261 is now here I don't think diminishes the discussion all that much in my mind, especially if you're in specific topics about politics. Eventually, the shitposters will get bored and excuse themselves.

I think, if anything, their better posters like Asherlee have actually made CE better.

At this point I view Tenlaar as a low rent JoeNumbers.

I miss it.

ChocoboMogALT posted...

You still haven't said one bad thing about racists or racism. Not even, "I may disagree with their beliefs, but..." You're just strictly running defense. How stupid do you think we are?
Fuck off.

Expecting everybody to preface discussion of constitutional protection of shitty beliefs with now I dont agree with these shitty beliefs, but or you get to accuse them of having those shitty beliefs is ridiculous.

Torgo posted...

And if they don't "go back where they came from" - what is the next step that logically follows?

The spectrum ranges from nothing to actively working towards a genocide. To act as if there are not people who just think races are better off separate but arent going to take any discriminatory or violent action about it is not a position based in reality.

Unsuprised_Pika posted...

If those beliefs involve wanting people treated as lesser(or worse) for immutable characterstics and are shared or encouraged its not. Simply spreading such filth is an act of aggresion. Words are an action. If you say "(slur for racial group) are lazy subhumans. The world would be better off without them" thats tantamount to a call for genocide even without directly saying it.. Merely spreading it is harmful to that group and society overall.

I dont agree that beliefs that can be extrapolated to an extreme conclusion should always be regarded as being that extreme conclusion.

I am not sending someone to prison for simply buying into a stereotype or something.

But there are racist acts or beliefs "lesser" then a straight up lynching or direct violence that if taught to children, shared in a conspiritorial manner or with intent(or gross negligence) to encourage harm or cause others to discriminate or harm should indeed result in legal consequences. And in some cases simply for sharing it at all.

So where do you, personally, draw that line for when discriminatory beliefs (again, Im talking about beliefs, not actions) reach a point of deserving legal punishment?

Tenlaar posted...

The spectrum ranges from nothing to actively working towards a genocide. To act as if there are not people who just think races are better off separate but arent going to take any discriminatory or violent action about it is not a position based in reality.

There are people who think the races are better off separate but dont consciously want genocide but there are no people that want the races to be separate and are perfectly fair in hiring decisions or other similar actions. Of corse theyre taking discriminatory actions.

Does anyone have hard data on how many active users per day the site lost when 261 was closed?

Starks posted...

Does anyone have hard data on how many active users per day the site lost when 261 was closed?

Id be interested in seeing those numbers.

Outside of a few exceptions? Political discussion here is definitely a lot more basic than it was on 261. The only real improvement I've seen is there's more interest in Canadian politics here than in 261 which admittedly I do like since I currently live there.

Words are actions and these people vote. They are active in their community. To act as if people can't hurt innocents with their hateful beliefs if they aren't actively participating in murders is not a position based in reality.

No one has firmly held beliefs, extreme ones especially, and just does nothing with them. @Tenlaar is not going to sit here and convince us that the average white supremacist doesn't let their chosen beliefs influence how they interact with the world. Forget the extreme thoughts and words for a moment, human beings don't act like that. Outside of automatic biological functions, every action is influenced by what we say and think. You can't separate the brain from the person.

bfslick50 posted...

There are people who think the races are better off separate but dont consciously want genocide but there are no people that want the races to be separate and are perfectly fair in hiring decisions or other similar actions. Of corse theyre taking discriminatory actions.

Most people are not in positions of authority that make hiring decisions and the like. People that do should be punished for those discriminatory actions but people are allowed to be discriminatory in their own every day lives. Like, do you think somebody should be legally punished for going out of their way to only shop at stores owned by a particular race whenever possible?

Tenlaar posted...

Most people are not in positions of authority that make hiring decisions and the like. People that do should be punished for those discriminatory actions but people are allowed to be discriminatory in their own every day lives. Like, do you think somebody should be legally punished for going out of their way to only shop at stores owned by a particular race whenever possible?

You took the position that there are people who think the races are better off separate but wont take any discriminatory actions and now the goalpost is moved to they have zero influence to cause discrimination. Anyone not on bottom rung who aides in hiring people below them, any tradesman that sets their own rates, any teacher that sets how they give partial credit, police officers with who they arrest versus give a warning, really anyone that deals with customers/public can be very discriminatory with who they give a break. Yea you can be racist and avoid a store owner you dont like but no one is going to be that biased and perfectly good at keeping it from spilling into their professional life.

ChocoboMogALT posted...

You still haven't said one bad thing about racists or racism. Not even, "I may disagree with their beliefs, but..." You're just strictly running defense. How stupid do you think we are?
Fuck off.

This is an awful metric to go by. It's literally caring for tone over logical content.

Tenlaar posted...

Most people are not in positions of authority that make hiring decisions and the like. People that do should be punished for those discriminatory actions but people are allowed to be discriminatory in their own every day lives. Like, do you think somebody should be legally punished for going out of their way to only shop at stores owned by a particular race whenever possible?

The fascists that keep winning only do so because people keep voting for them. The powerful people couldn't have the power to affect things if they got 1% of the vote every election

Deutschenlied posted...

Words are actions and these people vote.

Words are protected actions. You can't go to prison for them unless you make explicit and immediate threats.

We keep that one around because once you start cracking down on things people can or csnt say in casual conversation, you reaaaally start slipping into authoritarianism.

But let's play this out. Whats a racist comment? Usage of a slur? Thats not necessary for a comment to be racist. A person can simply say normal insulting sentences to one particular race without ever actually using racially charged language, in order to express it. Heck a person doesn't even have to say something insulting. Asking a question in an infsntilizing manner or asking a dumb question"is your dad still around? I.e." can be an expression of internal racism.

So how do you imprison someone for being a racist when a ton of racists would just get by by making statements that out of context aren't racial? This is why the term thought crime gets used because you would have to ascertain thoughts to be able to indicate this.

Further,... I don't want racists to be incentivized to hide their racism. I want them to be as open about it as possible so they can be properly avoided and ostracized. All you're doing by arresting racist people who don't actually attack anyone, is sending the sentiments under the skin where they cannot be openly analyzed.