Current Events > Hot take: religious texts should be in school libraries and should be taught in

(+) Yeah! (+)

As long as it's contained to "These people believed in this thing that caused them to do this event or behave this way."

And includes all religions including American Indian, African, East Asian, and Pacific Islander religions and belief structures.

And among "these events" include the wars, colonialism, enslavement, murder, and politics which have held back centuries of progress worldwide.

majin_nemesis posted...

yes it is because what's in them are the actual beliefs, you can't separate both of them since they are the same thing

Yeah you keep going on this objectively wrong thing even after being corrected, I think it's time you leave the discussion

I am a Christian, and really torn by this. I absolutely think that there is no room for indoctrination in public school settings. The line between church and state has to be firm, and kids from all backgrounds need to feel welcome and comfortable in a place they are required by law to be.

At the same time, the Bible and other religious texts are a huge part of the culture of the world. My oldest son has decided that organized religion is not for him. But he spent a lot of high school reading religious texts like the Bible and Quran to learn about the world. I think he got a lot out of that. And I took some courses on comparative religion and religion as the basis for law in college that were utterly fascinating.

So: I am fine with this if we can do it without indoctrination. Again: I am Christian, but my faith and choices belong firmly in church, not imposed on a captive audience. Maybe a class about a number of religions with a focus on cultural impact would be ok, or maybe waiting until kids have a choice about what to study in college is best. I dont know. I think there is a lot of value in learning about different religions for every person-but that kind of class could be so easily misused to impose on others.

majin_nemesis posted...

yes it is because what's in them are the actual beliefs, you can't separate both of them since they are the same thing

He means to say that teaching about the Bible isn't the same as trying to convince people what's in the Bible is true. Which has been made obvious since the start of the topic, but I'm just going to put good faith that you aren't deliberately interpreting in bad faith.

But yes, I would be concerned with how this would be abused in conservative areas.

-Unit 1: The British Monarchy-
"Some guy said he was king of Britain because God said so. Things didn't go well after that."

-End of Unit 1-

Non-religious contexts makes sense. It would be hard to have a strong grasp of history or sociology without an understanding of relevant religions.

RuneterranSnap posted...

It's ok that you're wrong.

Only proving my point more

It's been some time since I was in school but I seem to remember history touching on the religions some. I can't remember how much detail though, ngl.

I think it'd be negligent for school not to teach the historical significance of religion, but as for what they're about or doctrine..

I have no problem with them in libraries. Freedom of religion was like one of the main points.

Aysander posted...

I am confused, maybe someone can help me out here.

In middle school and high school, you would at some point have had a World History, Ancient History, and US (Or insert your country here) History course, correct?

All of those...would have covered exactly this to some extent. In World History alone, we learned about Charlemagne and how religion was intertwined with the crown, how the Crusades started and what they aimed to accomplish, how Religion helped shaped the monarchies of England and France, and what that meant for the New World and the US as well in the future.

And that's without considering that Ancient History tended to cover China, Rome, Greece, and even some older situations and how Religion impacted their cultures...

I never learned anything about religion or its influences in any of my history classes.

NatsuSama posted...

Only proving my point more

You can go too.

RuneterranSnap posted...

Because nobody is talking about teaching the actual beliefs they're talking about teaching how the stories had a significant impact on history and culture.

You're incredibly naive if you think this wouldn't immediately be abused.

Westernwolf4 posted...

I am a Christian, and really torn by this. I absolutely think that there is no room for indoctrination in public school settings. The line between church and state has to be firm, and kids from all backgrounds need to feel welcome and comfortable in a place they are required by law to be.

At the same time, the Bible and other religious texts are a huge part of the culture of the world. My oldest son has decided that organized religion is not for him. But he spent a lot of high school reading religious texts like the Bible and Quran to learn about the world. I think he got a lot out of that. And I took some courses on comparative religion and religion as the basis for law in college that were utterly fascinating.

So: I am fine with this if we can do it without indoctrination. Again: I am Christian, but my faith and choices belong firmly in church, not imposed on a captive audience. Maybe a class about a number of religions with a focus on cultural impact would be ok, or maybe waiting until kids have a choice about what to study in college is best. I dont know. I think there is a lot of value in learning about different religions for every person-but that kind of class could be so easily misused to impose on others.

I love this.

Nah schools shouldnt waste time teaching bullshit. They should teach more life skills instead. Stuff you actually need to know when you are an adult and have to live.

Murphiroth posted...

You're incredibly naive if you think this wouldn't immediately be abused.

You're incredibly naive if you think it's not important to learn.

I went to a secular private school and we had an elective Bible class that was as TC described. The old and new testaments were read and analyzed as you would in English or History classes. It was really interesting, if not especially popular.

RuneterranSnap posted...

I never learned anything about religion or its influences in any of my history classes.

Never in-depth, but like, the Crusades? Rome's adjustment to Christianity?

No. Not in this country.

Ill agree that the Bible is important for understanding English literature in a classical education, for example, but if you try to do that in this country, theres no way in hell it would be taught in a non-religious manner, as this country is way too full of Christians.

I don't see the need.

History already covers it enough. When a religion is relevant, its mentioned as far it affected the relevant topic.

There's really no purpose to analyse the books themselves because they aren't intended to be actual litersture, they're scripture and rhetoric.

RuneterranSnap posted...

You're incredibly naive if you think it's not important to learn.

Please indicate to me where I said that.

RuneterranSnap posted...

You're incredibly naive if you think it's not important to learn.

Amazing you dodged what he said that it would be abused.

This topic isn't seriously looking for a discussion and more likely just seeking acknowledgment.

LightHawKnight posted...

Nah schools shouldnt waste time teaching bullshit. They should teach more life skills instead. Stuff you actually need to know when you are an adult and have to live.

History and culture are just as important to learn as life skills.

LightHawKnight posted...

Nah schools shouldnt waste time teaching bullshit. They should teach more life skills instead. Stuff you actually need to know when you are an adult and have to live.

In an increasingly globalized economy, this could prove a vital foundation for kids who end up working for multinational or international companies. Soft skills can be just as important to learn as hard skills in the workplace.

A persons first exposure to other religions and cultures should NOT be in the workplace. That has proven disastrous for a few firms.

Guide posted...

Never in-depth, but like, the Crusades? Rome's adjustment to Christianity?

I learned about them in broad strokes, what I'm talking about on a history standpoint is specifics in how the two interacted with each other, how the texts fed into government and how govenment influenced the texts.

RyukSan posted...

Amazing you dodged what he said that it would be abused.

This topic isn't seriously looking for a discussion and more likely just seeking acknowledgment.

I didn't dodge anything relevant and it is serious.

pnut027 posted...

In an increasingly globalized economy, this could prove a vital foundation for kids who end up working for multinational or international companies. Soft skills can be just as important to learn as hard skills in the workplace.

A persons first exposure to other religions and cultures should NOT be in the workplace. That has proven disastrous for a few firms.

Pffft.

RuneterranSnap posted...

I never learned anything about religion or its influences in any of my history classes.

Same.

Well, not in middle school or high school, anyway.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

There's really no purpose to analyse the books themselves because they aren't intended to be actual litersture, they're scripture and rhetoric.

But they've influenced literature all the same. That's what should be taught.

PraetorXyn posted...

No. Not in this country.

Ill agree that the Bible is important for understanding English literature in a classical education, for example, but if you try to do that in this country, theres no way in hell it would be taught in a non-religious manner, as this country is way too full of Christians.

I and others have given multiple examples proving you wrong.

RuneterranSnap posted...

I didn't dodge anything relevant and it is serious.

He said it would be abused and you have yet to address that, and instead pivoted to something he/she didn't say.

You are still dodging.

RuneterranSnap posted...

But they've influenced literature all the same. That's what should be taught.

I and others have given multiple examples proving you wrong.

I dont give a fuck about your anecdotes. Ive got plenty to the contrary of parents and teachers who think prayer should be taught in school etc.

This is one of the most religious countries in the modern world. Its actually pretty disgraceful.

asdf8562 posted...

isn't possible to be secular for "historical context."

There's no reason whatsoever for believing this.

For example, the focus on the Bible. Whether it's by conscious or sub conscious efforts, a focus on the importance of the Bible over the many other religions was made.

At least in the west, the Bible has had far greater influence over history and culture than any other religion. Others shouldn't necessarily be neglected, but it makes perfect sense to focus on Christianity.

Or the fact you may say it should be taught secularly and let's go ahead and pretend your genuine, the problem is what would actually happen is specific religions will get taught to be mostly good while glossing over the bad.

There's no need for this to be true. Why do you assume it can't be taught with honesty?

All while teaching specific religions like Islam to be mostly bad while glossing over any good.

Nonsense.

RuneterranSnap posted...

I and others have given multiple examples proving you wrong.

Eh, I get that a lot of people are kneejerk misinterpreting you, but there's not been any proof yet that this would not be abused.

Like, The Bible Belt, man.

RuneterranSnap posted...

But they've influenced literature all the same. That's what should be taught.

At least to me literature classes were never about seeing what influenced what and more about developing analytical skills.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

At least to me literature classes were never about seeing what influenced what and more about developing analytical skills.

It's both

pnut027 posted...

In an increasingly globalized economy, this could prove a vital foundation for kids who end up working for multinational or international companies. Soft skills can be just as important to learn as hard skills in the workplace.

A persons first exposure to other religions and cultures should NOT be in the workplace. That has proven disastrous for a few firms.

This. While I do think it would be helpful for kids to learn more practical skills in school, they are mainly there to learn how to think critically and how to interact with other people. Soft skills are the key to that. Thinking about philosophy and art, and culture and literature are keys to becoming a curious person who likes critical thinking. And that is the foundation for all the practical skills.

Guide posted...

Eh, I get that a lot of people are kneejerk misinterpreting you, but there's not been any proof yet that this would not be abused.

Like, The Bible Belt, man.

Then enable it and go after the abusers. It's a non issue, you don't block a good thing because some might misuse it.

RuneterranSnap posted...

It's a non issue, you don't block a good thing because some might misuse it.

You do if the potential results are worse than the potential good. C'mon now, don't let the people riling you up also make you stubborn to genuine criticisms.

Guide posted...

Eh, I get that a lot of people are kneejerk misinterpreting you, but there's not been any proof yet that this would not be abused.

Nobody can prove it would never be abused, but I can prove it is not necessarily abused, because I took such a class in 9th grade (in a Central Jersey secular private school).

Westernwolf4 posted...

This. While I do think it would be helpful for kids to learn more practical skills in school, they are mainly there to learn how to think critically and how to interact with other people. Soft skills are the key to that. Thinking about philosophy and art, and culture and literature are keys to becoming a curious person who likes critical thinking. And that is the foundation for all the practical skills.

"Soft skills" should be taught by encouraging socialization in a natural ungraded setting. E.g. longer recess and after school club activities. You can even give credit, but it shouldn't be part of the curriculum.

Guide posted...

You do if the potential results are worse than the potential good. C'mon now, don't let the people riling you up also make you stubborn to genuine criticisms.

But it won't be.

AloneIBreak posted...

There's no need for this to be true. Why do you assume it can't be taught with honesty?

There's no reason to assume it would be taught with honesty in America. Most of the country is Christian, with people who both lean right and left.

America heavily favors Christianity. The thought of the PotUS alone being openly Muslim, Atheist, or non Christian is still a non starter. Most of the country is still uncomfortable with talking about the bad things Christianity has brought to America. It isn't widely discussed (amd accepted which is the most important factor) just how much Christianity was used to justify misogyny, racism, bigotry, slavery, murder and more. As a great focus is more times than not placed on the good things. Talking about the bad is always met with hard pushback.

Let's not get started on Muslims in the states and the negative connotation that's slapped on to their religion for simply existing. Or the fact that there's a large coalition of Americans who believe church (Christianity) and state shouldn't be separate, and want Christianity to be the USs forced religion through totalitarian rule.

I disagree, the same parables from religious text can be taught without the religious context.

RyukSan posted...

There's no reason to assume it would be taught with honesty in America. Most of the country is Christian, with people who both lean right and left.

America heavily favors Christianity. The thought of the PotUS alone being openly Muslim, Atheist, or non Christian is still a non starter. Most of the country is still uncomfortable with talking about the bad things Christianity has brought to America. It isn't widely discussed (amd accepted which is the most important factor) just how much Christianity was used to justify misogyny, racism, bigotry, slavery, murder and more. As a great focus is more times than not placed on the good things. Talking about the bad is always met with hard pushback.

Let's not get started on Muslims in the states and the negative connotation that's slapped on to their religion for simply existing. Or the fact that there's a large coalition of Americans who believe church (Christianity) and state shouldn't be separate, and want Christianity to be the USs forced religion through totalitarian rule.

This. Its common sense that this would go badly in America, because the majority of the population are predisposed to abuse it.

Cephalopods posted...

I disagree, the same parables from religious text can be taught without the religious context.

It's not about teaching the parables or the stories so much as teaching how they've influenced things.

Specifically how they've influenced literature and culture over the ages, which can't really be done without teaching the actual content.

Tyranthraxus posted...

"Soft skills" should be taught by encouraging socialization in a natural ungraded setting. E.g. longer recess and after school club activities. You can even give credit, but it shouldn't be part of the curriculum.

Sure for the social part-which I never argued should be part of the curriculum. But you develop critical thinking skills by studying how the rest of the world works and has worked. By thinking about what has been written and created and accomplished and testing it against your own view of the world. You dont learn that on the slide at recess, and you dont learn that if all your classes are about how to open a bank account.

tankboy posted...

Nobody can prove it would never be abused, but I can prove it is not necessarily abused, because I took such a class in 9th grade (in a Central Jersey secular private school).

NJ has some of the best schooling in the country, and a secular private school would of course be quite up there.

Really, now that I think about it, the point is sort of moot. This class does exist, just not in so many schools, not in the main curriculum, and religious indoctrination has mostly been kept out of secular schools even in conservative areas (not like they won't get it elsewhere).

RyukSan posted...

There's no reason to assume it would be taught with honesty in America. Most of the country is Christian, with people who both lean right and left.

America heavily favors Christianity. The thought of the PotUS alone being openly Muslim, Atheist, or non Christian is still a non starter. Most of the country is still uncomfortable with talking about the bad things Christianity has brought to America. It isn't widely discussed (amd accepted which is the most important factor) just how much Christianity was used to justify misogyny, racism, bigotry, slavery, murder and more. As a great focus is more times than not placed on the good things. Talking about the bad is always met with hard pushback.

Let's not get started on Muslims in the states and the negative connotation that's slapped on to their religion for simply existing. Or the fact that there's a large coalition of Americans who believe church (Christianity) and state shouldn't be separate, and want Christianity to be the USs forced religion through totalitarian rule.

American history isn't taught with honesty, but I certainly hope you don't think we should skip the teaching of the subject entirely.

I took a religions course in college and it was one of most interesting courses I took

Maybe just read the OP before being bigots on a public forum.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I also had a world religion class in Catholic high School along with a world history class and it was very interesting and 30 years later I'm still unlearning the massive amounts of complete bullshit I was taught in those classes and I'd have been much better off had I just never had those classes in the first place.

Not until evolution and other scientific theories are taught across all schools in the country with standardized criteria. As well as accurate history particularly in regards to the Civil War.