Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ 2B vs. Sol Badguy

(+) Yeah! (+)

2B has challenged Sol Badguy to a fight! Location of the fight: Lars Canyon - An arid badland littered with the corpses of giant Gears, as seen in Guilty Gear Strive. All areas are accessible, and may be freely traversed without the need to break walls. Attackers will start in area 3, whereas defenders will begin in Area 1. Which side will win?

Guidelines
-The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
-The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of executing a prearranged battle plan.
-Unless stated otherwise, characters have access to their full arsenal of abilities and equipment. They may not always work at full power, however (e.g. a petrifying spell may have only a partial hindering effect not seen in gameplay or even fail outright against sufficiently powerful mercenaries). Use your own discretion.
-No mercenary can ever start in a location where they would die instantly, destroy the arena merely by existing in it, or end up ringed out of the terrain before abilities. If there's no room within a terrain to fit them, the terrain will stretch out until there's at least one yard of available, moving, safe space. Attacks may not damage the terrain enough to cause automatic deaths or ring-outs, save with a concerted effort.
-There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting
-Bold your votes.
-You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
-Leaders cannot vote for their own teams, but they are free to argue their case.
-If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
-This match will end in 24 hours.

2B is as she appears in NieR: Automata, equipped with the Virtuous Contract, Treaty, Dignity and Grief weapons. She is equipped with all of the System chips, Shock Wave, Continuous Combo, Overclock, Bullet Detonation, Evasive System and Offensive Heal, all of which are maxed out, with the exception of Offensive Heal which is at +5. She is accompanied by Pod 042, which has been fully upgraded as Pods A, B, and C and has access to all Pod programs. Self-Destruction is enabled. Feats from additional canonical media are considered valid.

~VS~

Sol Badguy is as he appears across the Guilty Gear series, at the peak of his powers. His healing factor has been suppressed, and may only be activated while he's in Dragon Install mode, which will function as seen in gameplay, drawbacks and costs included. He may use the Outrage Mk. II's cannon mode, but only if he finds a suitable source of power for it. His instant kills will not be automatically fatal.

2B's argument:

This will be a very simple argument. I feel 2B's combat speaks for itself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Eh0jbddmk

The only notable thing this video is missing (because it's just not relevant) is that 2B heals for 30% of all the damage she inflicts. That is all.

(Also ignore the segments where a scrawny nerd is fighting obv -- some of them is relevant but it's not even necessary to discriminate between 9S' unique shit and 2B's for this sell job)

If you want a little more, this one is also hella sick and fully relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbBc4O2SdP8

Sol is grossly outskilled. Gonna get combo looped to death babay

Sol's argument:

There's not a lot to say here. 2B is hilariously outmatched. I'm just going to post a list of all the ridiculous shit Sol can do and you tell me if this isn't a godstomp. Checking all of these details should take ten minutes maximum, including watching videos for relevant stuff.

-Oneshots a building sized mecha: https://imgur.com/d5BPVTJ
-Can punch so hard that the sheer energy would destroy the world if concentrated in one spot and not throw into a pocket dimension (bonus: check the first youtube comment for some extra hilarity): https://youtu.be/Pi_RtJvcr2I?list=PLjguMKXuip3WivNvcUFrj0BPUoGE2RuDT&t=859
-Can move so fast he caught up to the start-up of an ICBM that could accelerate to up to 5200 meters...per *second*: https://youtu.be/Pi_RtJvcr2I?list=PLjguMKXuip3WivNvcUFrj0BPUoGE2RuDT&t=55
-Immune to timestop hax (Axl Low, resident time traveler and time master is the one talking to him): https://imgur.com/TA8qbAj
-Took a direct hit from the Thunderseal (which denies regeneration, which was the usual way Sol facetanked shit in the era this canonical manga is from), got electrocuted, and still beat the hell out of Ky: https://imgur.com/a/v6K3Zpd
-Blows a gigantic Megadeth-class Gear up by going Dragon Install with a single Tyrant Rave (note: he got stronger since then): https://imgur.com/a/FtattUk

2B has literally zero chance here. The statcheck is too real. She's good, but not as good as Sol 'Solo' Badguy.

Leaning 2B. Sol has some nutty lore wiki moments, but to be blunt they aren't at all expressed in his 3D cutscenes or gameplay so I take them with a grain of salt.

leaning Sol, it looks like 2B is kinda just out of her weight class, especially because she doesn't have the Flight Unit

KamikazePotato posted...

Leaning 2B. Sol has some nutty lore wiki moments, but to be blunt they aren't at all expressed in his 3D cutscenes or gameplay so I take them with a grain of salt.

Really saying this when I posted cutscenes of him doing the shit he should do, smh

2B

Your message text may not be in all uppercase

Honestly a less obnoxious / dubious argument for his strength would've been the Lincoln Memorial scene (God why is this joke soundtrack version the best vid of it on YouTube):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h2WyI0DwbQ

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Really saying this when I posted cutscenes of him doing the shit he should do, smh

Most of them are lore wiki moments. Like saying 'Sol can destroy the Earth if he punches really hard' is ludicrous when that doesn't vibe at all with his strength portrayal in 99% of his cutscenes. Saying he's running 5200 meters per second is nonsensical because doesn't even match the actual speed shown in that very cutscene! One-punching the big monster is by far the moment I take the most seriously because it actually feels consistent.

KP definitely look at the vid I put up there, that's the most consistent raw strength feat with no asterisks attached

Anyway Sol but it's not a godstomp

Yeah that video is good too. It provides consistency for Sol being extremely strong. If you think he gets in on 2B then she will be turned to scrap pretty quickly.

2B because frankly I need to take a whole salt shaker with these Sol Badguy feats.

I think strength and feats for Guilty Gear plot are pretty inconsistent, like example one here is as late as Xrd Sign's story mode and is a guy with a revolver almost kills Ky (has him bleeding out on the floor in 2-3 shots).

https://imgur.com/Ber5BFM

If not for the whole gear eye thing, Ky would've died here. And this is one of the "all about planning, mysterious masked councilman" kind of guy who knows every major player thoroughly, and thinks coming by himself with a revolver and shooting from the front 5 yards away is a done deal (and is allmost right). Sol doesn't even have full access to the one thing that saves Ky from this, the gear healing factor. And Ky likewise had tons of the same "fought x number of megadeth class gears etc etc" feats under his belt even before gear powers.

Sol has the extra can of worms of 95% of the plot he'll say he's holding back, and another 4% are treated as impossible hail maries instead of casual lifting of his limiters showing what he's consistently capable of.

Sol also gets shot on the shoulder by Happy Chaos by a bullet that impedes regeneration and doesn't even flinch. Like, not even a gasp of pain, IIRC. He's made of sterner stuff than Ky in general.

Oh trust me I made the "lol Ky almost jobs to a basic-ass pistol" argument back in M4, that shit was hilarious.

Strive-era Ky got a massive jump

So, in the interest of getting actual points to talk about:

Sol is really quite strong. There are caveats to his best power and speed feats - "caught up to a missile" is relative to the missile being shot out right as he reaches the end of the silo and "blew a hole in a thing so powerfully he could create a pocket dimension" is true... as the conduit for a dude who basically had free manipulation the metaverse behind reality. The fact that Sol was trusted to do both of these is a good good showing for him - like where ICBM's failed, Sol Badguy punching something really hard succeeded. For a general idea of his relative movement speed, check out 2:05 here for a real-time FMV of him moving rather than numbers. For strength, the previously-posted "throwing around a big statue of President Lincoln" will do. Keep in mind he's taking out, like, the entire Secret Service there.

https://youtu.be/Pi_RtJvcr2I

If he touches 2B with a relatively strong hit, she's getting dumpstered. The issue would be actually touching her.

2B is not going to make being touched easy, if at all. This is the first boss of Automata.

https://nintendoeverything.com/wp-content/uploads/NieR-Automata-Engels.jpg

2B individually cuts off some of its limbs before getting into her flight unit and taking the thing on. Namely, she takes direct hits from lasers the size of Engles' head (see: bigger than her, by quite a lot) and is able to go head-to-head with its arm, which is basically a giant sawblade. She can't take MANY of these hits... but let's go over some of the stuff she's got:

-Offensive Healing: Any time she lands a blow, she's healing 30% of whatever she dishes out.
-Evasive System: Passive bullet time whenever a projectile gets near her. If it's less than an actual bullet, she's probably dodging it.
-Bullet Detonation: If she shoots a projectile, it explodes. To damage the one who tossed it out or anything in range.
-Continuous Combo: She can focus on swiping with her blade and dodging at the same time. Literally devoting some processing power in her CPU to do both simultaneously.
-Overclock: Witch time. It's just Witch Time. It's specifically described as slowing down time for a few seconds on a close dodge.

But these just allow her to be functional. She's what you expect from a spectacle fighter, big combo machine and all that. What sets her apart is her support pod. Pod 042 provides constant, uninterrupted machine gun fire through the entire match, no reloading or anything, just constant bullets. But it also has ALL of its programs, which allows for:

-Big laser beam that shreds bosses, ends up going clean through a robot over twice the height of 2B, which was made of the corpses of similar combat models.
-Barrier that blocks melee attacks
-A scan pulse that detects all enemies and allows 2B to slash all of them faster than the eye can keep up with.
-Wire that grapples you directly to your target (it's just Snatch from DMC, you know it)
-Decoy hologram 2B
-Time distortion field to slow opponents
-Gravity well that does not damage, but causes all enemies in the vicinity to hover helplessly before her.
-Missiles, Chain Lightning, Bombs
-Healing circle
-Constant pulse scan of the area

Now, not all of this will necessarily be effective against Sol - he's fought against time manipulators before and has managed to land his share of punches in spite of that. What matters is that 2B is 100% controlling the pace of most of her encounters. If Sol makes even one mistake (and he HAS made mistakes - Guilty Gear continuing to happen proves that he can make mistakes), 2B can likely regenerate to full as long as she doesn't take a direct killshot, and will be dealing CONSTANT pressure on a guy who's been most used to recovering with a healing factor rather than dodging. And he's plenty tanky, sure... but it's gonna add up if he doesn't land the killing blow, and 2B has so MANY different ways to trip him up.

... with that said, yeah, if he gets that blow? 2B isn't the most durable in the world. Durable, sure, able to dish out damage, definitely, but she's much better at avoiding pain or taking explosions than she is concussive force. At the very worst, she can self-destruct and almost ensure a draw (her self-destruct is real good), but if Sol knocks the girl's head off her shoulders... that's a big problem.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Happy Chaos by a bullet that impedes regeneration

ok but what does this actually mean

Sol is very fast, but 2B is way faster (she's probably the closest Mercs has to DBZ Ultra Instinct since her system just automatically dodges for her)

2B is very strong, but Sol is way stronger (2B can combo to all hell but Sol doesn't need to combo)

Unsure where that leaves me though

This is taking me back the Most Powerful Character contests where people would grab Fate/Stay Night character factoids to make everyone from there seem like incomprehensible godlike figures. This was back when almost no one was familiar with the series.

Argument: "This character moves so fast they're impossible to track with the naked eye. Luck itself favors them. Their weapon is unbreakable and forged by the base components of reality. Their shield is unbreakable, except when it isn't, and that time didn't count."

When you actually play the game: "So they also lost to a 16-year old high schooler."

(I'm exaggerating for comedic effect...somewhat.)

Johnbobb posted...

ok but what does this actually mean

There's a character who discovered magic, once upon a time, and was trapped in the realm of magic and went insane and forgot his name. When he escaped to the outside world, he took up the name Happy Chaos, since it described the mood he preferred. He allied with a witch who could travel through time and change it at will who's been Sol's opponent for yonks, and because they both agreed their plan to cause mayhem was fucked if Sol got involved, created special weaponry meant specifically to kill him (like anti regeneration bullets). Sol gets hit by those and still makes it through a variety of dangers anyway -- the example of manhandling the Lincoln statue occurs after he's been shot, and the enemies trying to kill him are using those bullets too which is why he doesn't just facetank them. He still pulls through just fine and protects the president of the United States of America in so doing.

KamikazePotato posted...

This is taking me back the Most Powerful Character contests where people would grab Fate/Stay Night character factoids to make everyone from there seem like incomprehensible godlike figures. This was back when almost no one was familiar with the series.

Argument: "This character moves so fast they're impossible to track with the naked eye. Luck itself favors them. Their weapon is unbreakable and forged by the base components of reality. Their shield is unbreakable, except when it isn't, and that time didn't count."

When you actually play the game: "So they also lost to a 16-year old high schooler."

(I'm exaggerating for comedic effect...somewhat.)

I get what you're saying, which is why I posted sources for everything I showed. Nobody has to take me at my word. The materials are right there to verify with. If any of them seem unclear or deliberately shortened or anything, people can just ask for more detail and I'm happy to provide.

Also, something worth noting: Sol does have his Dragon Install, which pumps him up WAY past his normal limits, and will heal him to full upon activation. It's a last ditch move likely, since it leaves him exposed when it runs out for a few seconds, but if he's close to winning and needs a bit more juice, it's there as an option.

Getting shot in the shoulder and not flinching is a Yakuza staple too. You don't even need to be Kiryu to do it, that's like 2 upkeep or lower territory!

And this one's mainly taking the piss, but on the Lincoln memorial video, my first thought is that it's marginally a better showing than what OoT Link can do with the golden gauntlets.

2Butts

There's not really an arguments to make on my end here, and it's a straight duel with no abilties on a basic terrain so I just think she wins after a tough battle that further destroys most of the area. This kind of match is a Dragonball episode. Heaven or Hell, fight!

KJH posted...

Getting shot in the shoulder and not flinching is a Yakuza staple too. You don't even need to be Kiryu to do it, that's like 2 upkeep or lower territory!

And this one's mainly taking the piss, but on the Lincoln memorial video, my first thought is that it's marginally a better showing than what OoT Link can do with the golden gauntlets.

Yeah this is what I was getting with the salt shaker comment. If you set aside the pokedex level ridiculous numbers assigned hes like...not anywhere near 2B when it comes to what the eyes see?

The scene with him running towards the missile is very fast, although it's more of a building up to top sprinting speed thing. I don't think Sol is nearly that agile in close quarters combat, although he's still pretty quick.

One point against Sol in this sort of fight is that he's canonically not good at fighting. He just muscles through things in the GG universe by being stronger and regenerating. His fight scene with Ky in Xrd is a perfect example of this, as Ky is significantly less superhuman than him and beats up Sol when Sol asks him to stop fighting fair. There's even a post-match bit of dialogue where Sol lectures someone on always striving to improve their skills and be better, then ends it with "Me? Yeah, I don't that shit myself."

Against an opponent with machine precision, that's a huge detriment. He's not going to outmaneuver or outsmart 2B. It's really just a matter if he can outstat her and land a good hit before she wears him down.

Eddv posted...

Yeah this is what I was getting with the salt shaker comment. If you set aside the pokedex level ridiculous numbers assigned hes like...not anywhere near 2B when it comes to what the eyes see?

Out of curiosity, what do you see when you look at 2B

Because I see 'couldn't beat Engels without a flight unit and a dedicated hackerman'

Like...she has no plot hype. Literally zero. We have instances of her failing at taking out dudes you would absolutely take, say, Raiden to manhandle.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Out of curiosity, what do you see when you look at 2B

Because I see 'couldn't beat Engels without a flight unit and a dedicated hackerman'

Like...she has no plot hype. Literally zero. We have instances of her failing at taking out dudes you would absolutely take, say, Raiden to manhandle.

2B's cutscene showings are actually kind of bad. The gameplay feels extremely powerful, but Nier Automata characters move at 1/3 of that speed when the game takes away control from you. I chalk some of that up to budget and tone reasons, though.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Out of curiosity, what do you see when you look at 2B

Because I see 'couldn't beat Engels without a flight unit and a dedicated hackerman'

Like...she has no plot hype. Literally zero. We have instances of her failing at taking out dudes you would absolutely take, say, Raiden to manhandle.

I see an incredibly fast and dodgy gunner with bullets that dont even need to hit you to hit you.

Shes a rare instance where her gameplay is more hype than her cutscenes

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Out of curiosity, what do you see when you look at 2B

Because I see 'couldn't beat Engels without a flight unit and a dedicated hackerman'

Like...she has no plot hype. Literally zero. We have instances of her failing at taking out dudes you would absolutely take, say, Raiden to manhandle.

To be fair, that's a fresh 2B that's not equipped at all, and the flight unit's not that huge an upgrade on firepower vs a pod laser program. And on a direct comparison with Raiden, we know even if Raiden could fight Ray/Excelsius, he likewise got thoroughly no-showed by Armstrong's nanomachines, so it's not any kind of guarantee he'd be manhandling an Engels.

We can also look at Grn, which 2B just can't hurt at all, period. And like...I think I'd take EXCELSUS to fight Grn evenly. So it's like, Raiden has winning ways and 2B doesn't so I just am not so hyped up on her. Their gameplay might be similar, but Raiden has all the intangibles in his favor, in exchange for no healing and much less versatility. Which isn't to say 2B isn't strong, but she's strong with an upper ceiling of 'nothing you can really point at that is impressive besides styling on trash', kinda.

I don't get what Excelsus does to make it anywhere close to Grun, it's less than 1/10th the size (Grun is over 1000 meters tall) and has worse defenses (just the standard carbon nanotube plating) vs Grun's insanely thick armor even for it's size + emp barrier. Like that whole thing has better defenses than Armstrong.

Sol Badguy

As mentioned GG can be pretty inconsistent on feats/showings, but on average Sol is packing more power and weird magic science stuff compared to 2B at just his base. Him using install would ruin her day. She also doesn't really have anything to deal with his regen as far as I recall.

2B. So much of her stuff is raining bullet hell while she's nowhere near you, it plays against Sol's strengths

The Lincoln statue weighs 350,000 pounds, for reference.

Just for fun and reference to Raiden again, but he likewise lifts and swings a MG Ray and Excelsus that way outweigh that, from a worse leverage point, then proceeds to be weak in hand to hand immediately after. Anime deadlifts dont well translate to punching/slashing power.

To give Sol actual striking credit, this is Nagoriyuki, a giant cyborg vampire. Sol blade clashes with him to a stalemate here, with Nago then admitting that Sol would win the fight and letting himself get overpowered by Sol's punch, which clears out everything else in the room when he lets the power go.

https://youtu.be/TmrnitQev4o

So the question here is "to one-shot Nago and match power with him... how strong is that?"

https://gfycat.com/embarrassedmemorablegrayfox

Nago is able to blade clash/stall out the full power I-No. About how strong is that? Well if you look at about 32 seconds here...

https://gfycat.com/bonyyawningazurevase

"Very big explosion" strong. As to why Sol isn't punching her, he's busy charging the Special Beam Cannon with a big laser gun while the other guys fight. She also effortlessly tosses around some real big robots.

Just to try and quantify Sol's pure strength visually rather than comparing him to numbers. I do think that covering fire from pod and especially stuff like gravity (Sol get TK'd a LOT durning the I-No fight) will really screw with Sol, but I wanna try and give a more quantifiable measure to Sol's upper end that isn't just "he LIFTS". Even though hitting someone with President Lincoln is very, very funny.

Thats still jumping from one person thats even newer and not defined, to a borderline joke character in how undefined she is (with most power being in wonky magic reaching into time travel). Human Ky can clash supers with Sol in dramatic intros and come out unscathed.

My guy, I just see the cutscene where she barriers away Potemkin's giant robot and am like "wow that's a giant robot she swatted away". Then wanted to find something that actually measures that force in an environment that isn't a flashy game intro but like, actually happened in-universe.

I don't care about power levels or the past. I care that I saw this guy match power with her, and know that in the same series of cutscenes, her power was "wow bat away giant robot" and "wow big explosion". Which is, y'know. What I'd do with Raiden or whoever else when I wanna see how strong they are compared to other strong guys, and I think works in showing off power without diving into endless lore which requires a study guide to know which routes in which arcade modes were canon and which were I-No just screwing with the timeline.

Sol Badguy

2B's cutscene feats kinda suck to be honest

How good is Sol's regeneration?

EDIT: Oh, his healing factor has been suppressed apparently

Yeah I think that swings it to 2B for me. Sol is hardy but without his regeneration it's a tough sell. The constant rain of Pod bullets + 2B's other skills, plus her maneuverability makes it really hard for him to get in and land that one punch he needs.

Essentially:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_zM4KGYQ9A

(except 2B dodges at the end)

KamikazePotato posted...

Yeah I think that swings it to 2B for me. Sol is hardy but without his regeneration it's a tough sell. The constant rain of Pod bullets + 2B's other skills, plus her maneuverability makes it really hard for him to get in and land that one punch he needs.

Essentially:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_zM4KGYQ9A

(except 2B dodges at the end)

yeah i think this is pretty much where i settle, 2B

Also man, Strive cutscenes look so low budget compared to Xrd's