Current Events > Did teachers make up the "real meaning" of novels for English class

(+) Yeah! (+)

They pointed out all these literary themes in novels but really they were all BS talking out their ass

Damn_Underscore posted...

but really they were all BS talking out their ass

what are you basing this off

Yes and no.

There are certainly cases where interpretations of literature go beyond what was intended by the author, and also occasions where we cant know their intent.

However, I dont think that matters. One of the great things about literature is that things resonate with people on different levels.

Sounds like someone just saw the Scrotie McBoogerballs episode of South Park.

Lol, no, we Googled it!

I read Sparknotes more than my students do.

Not the book, but I remember in like tenth grade we spent an inordinate amount of time watching Dead Poets Society. In and of itself that was fine because it was easy, but I remember our teacher would pause the movie any time there was a clock on screen and be like, look its a clock. Its a time reference! No shit? Every clock is a fucking time reference.

Partially yes.
Am example I bring up is a short story from my diploma exam.
It's about a guy staying in a winter cabin. A fox comes out of the woods and starts at him.
It's about a man feeling connected with nature. Feeling like "wow. The world is alive, this is peaceful and nice."

The answer key was full of a ton of nonsense symbolism about life being short, the fox represents mans destructive and fragile relationship with nature, etc.

I bulshit my way through it, but after that I found an blog online from the author where he literally said "Yah. It's a story about a guy and a fox. Nothing more."

Sometimes there is symbolism, sometimes teachers make it up.

don't you just love when students think they know more about a work of literature than the person teaching it?

averagejoel posted...

don't you just love when students think they know more about a work of literature than the person teaching it?

found the English teacher

Damn_Underscore posted...

found the English teacher

by "english teacher" do you mean "person who recognizes the importance of media literacy"?

epik_fail1 posted...

Symbolism is a thing, but in my case (the French teachers instead of English ones) took it way too far. There was a randomly mentioned blue curtain in a book and the teacher analyzed it during like 2 hours according to the theme of the novel. It everything was blue, then yeah it would probably have been some kind of symbolism, but come on.

Are you sure it was in your case?
Are you sure it wasn't the most popular meme about English literary analysis?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/2/AAZuMeAAESLs.jpg

ApherosyLove posted...

Are you sure it was in your case?
Are you sure it wasn't the most popular English meme about literary analysis?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/2/AAZuMeAAESLs.jpg

that meme has done more to harm media literacy than any english teacher in history

averagejoel posted...

that meme has done more to harm media literacy than any english teacher in history

Yeah I like this (admittedly pretentious) interpretation:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/7/AAZuMeAAESLx.jpg

Meta meme literacy analysis.

sometimes they did

sometimes they didn't

it all depends on the novel and the writer

ApherosyLove posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/2/AAZuMeAAESLs.jpg

Color choices are one of the basics in storytelling. It can set the tone, suggest character personality, etc. Even something as basic as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles has this. The wise leader wears blue, the hothead wears red, etc.

If the curtains are blue, and the character is feeling melancholy, there's a 90% chance that the curtains are there to signify depression.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

well I mean the details can have subtext whether or not the author intended for that subtext to be there

Side note. I do find it funny that an English teacher I know threw shade at science teachers as giving too much homework. I rarely give out homework and miss maam you have students read novels for your class outside class lol. And do essays

If the meaning changes between teachers...

Like I've watched a talk about how important water was to The Great Gatsby. Never came up in high school.

My teachers had a curriculum. I actually got accused of cheating in an exam because my understanding of "lord of the flies" perfectly matched the grading rubric of my teacher's guidebook. (After talking with the teacher she realized I didn't)

The book nor the test cared about perfection though. As long as you could understand the broad strokes symbolism it was a pass. The whole point of teaching symbolism is to help kids learn and appreciate the concept of subtext and improve their media literacy. Any teacher dictating absolutes in a discussion about symbolism is probably missing the point.

Like, the way lord of the flies describes the gaping wound caused by the aircraft, and all the small children emerging from that scar. It's obvious the intent here is to liken the children to an infection, and immediately signal to readers that the kid's arrival is immediately harmful to the island and that they are an disease that will kill the body of the island.

So long as a reader can tell that the author is attempting to foreshadow the destruction if the island, and that the author is drawing specific attention to how they've already harmed the island, that's good enough.

averagejoel posted...

well I mean the details can have subtext whether or not the author intended for that subtext to be there

Right. Knowing an author's intent is mind-reading. Book reading is a matter of interpreting the text using the clause available.

Uta posted...

My teachers had a curriculum. I actually got accused of cheating in an exam because my understanding of "lord of the flies" perfectly matched the grading rubric of my teacher's guidebook. (After talking with the teacher she realized I didn't)

The book nor the test cared about perfection though. As long as you could understand the broad strokes symbolism it was a pass. The whole point of teaching symbolism is to help kids learn and appreciate the concept of subtext and improve their media literacy. Any teacher dictating absolutes in a discussion about symbolism is probably missing the point.

Like, the way lord of the flies describes the gaping wound caused by the aircraft, and all the small children emerging from that scar. It's obvious the intent here is to liken the children to an infection, and immediately signal to readers that the kid's arrival is immediately harmful to the island and that they are an disease that will kill the body of the island.

So long as a reader can tell that the author is attempting to foreshadow the destruction if the island, and that the author is drawing specific attention to how they've already harmed the island, that's good enough.

dude i did not get the symbolic part of lord of the flies. just thought it was a goofy book about kids killing each other. still enjoyed it but i'm definitely missing something lol

i really suck at interpreting literature fiction. like even my 15-year-old sister has better media literacy skills than me and will make me feel like an idiot. i sort of regret using english/lit class as my daydream class but i was soo stressed out back then.

Hot take, but philosophy should replace English as the primary writing pedagogy vehicle

Uta posted...

The book nor the test cared about perfection though. As long as you could understand the broad strokes symbolism it was a pass. The whole point of teaching symbolism is to help kids learn and appreciate the concept of subtext and improve their media literacy. Any teacher dictating absolutes in a discussion about symbolism is probably missing the point.

similarly, any student thinking that their teacher is dictating absolutes in a discussion about symbolism is probably misunderstanding

No. Try trumping them anytime with your evidence.

Anyway I don't remember teachers really telling us the meaning of the books. That was usually the test question...

Ratchetrockon posted...

dude i did not get the symbolic part of lord of the flies. just thought it was a goofy book about kids killing each other. still enjoyed it but i'm definitely missing something lol

It's been a long time since I read the book, but it's meant to reflect humanity as a whole, specifically the concepts of government and war. The kids arrive at an unspoiled island. Decide how to divvy up resources. Fight about the best way to handle problems. and eventually create two separate governments, one of which kills a kid sparking a straight up war on the Island which ends up destroying the Island.

If we take the island to equate to the world itself, then humans are an infection that destroys the world. This is reinforced by the kids being rescued by a WWI or II naval officer who chastises the kids for their violence. A Naval Officer, participating in one of the most violent wars of all time, telling off the kids for getting too violent.

Personally I found the themes to be worn on the book's proverbial sleeves, but that might be why I had that run-in with the teacher in the first place. ~shrug~

Mystery stories are good examples of authors using subtext. When an author introduces certain details you can look back and see their relevance when the mystery is solved. Making up what an author meant with some esoteric symbolism is not it

Uta posted...

It's been a long time since I read the book, but it's meant to reflect humanity as a whole, specifically the concepts of government and war. The kids arrive at an unspoiled island. Decide how to divvy up resources. Fight about the best way to handle problems. and eventually create two separate governments, one of which kills a kid sparking a straight up war on the Island which ends up destroying the Island.

If we take the island to equate to the world itself, then humans are an infection that destroys the world. This is reinforced by the kids being rescued by a WWI or II naval officer who chastises the kids for their violence. A Naval Officer, participating in one of the most violent wars of all time, telling off the kids for getting too violent.

Personally I found the themes to be worn on the book's proverbial sleeves, but that might be why I had that run-in with the teacher in the first place. ~shrug~

I don't take issue with any of that reading except it being about humanity as a whole, rather than british boarding school boys

averagejoel posted...

I don't take issue with any of that reading except it being about humanity as a whole, rather than british boarding school boys

Well it would be rather on brand for the British to assume that a bunch of British boys = literally the entirety of humanity.

Uta posted...

Well it would be rather on brand for the British to assume that a bunch of British boys = literally the entirety of humanity.

well yes, but my point is about what the novel is actually suggesting rather than what the author (may have) thought it was suggesting

Find your own symbolism, and do your own research.

English teachers are open to hearing your thoughts on literature.

Probably yes and no. I think it's a human thing with any piece of media. Sometimes the author/songwriter/whatever didn't intend any deeper meaning but people make it something deeper than it is, but some authors/songwriters/whatever do create with the intention of having some meaning to their craft.

There seems to be some Internet movement to analyze any depth as pretentious. Like with the curtains are blue thing, a lot of great writers incorporate techniques like metaphors and symbolism. All throughout human history, emotional states have been linked to colors and weather and personalities compared to animals, etc. One of the basics of good storytelling is Show, Don't Tell: blue curtains are a good way of expressing depression instead of just writing "John is depressed and sad" and if they're going out of their way to describe the interior decoration, it probably means something.

I love books and classic literature, and I always enjoyed book discussions in class. Maybe they were making shit up and talking out of their ass, but they did sometimes give me new ways to think about certain stories and gave them some more depth.

PesticideDream posted...

Probably yes and no. I think it's a human thing with any piece of media. Sometimes the author/songwriter/whatever didn't intend any deeper meaning but people make it something deeper than it is, but some authors/songwriters/whatever do create with the intention of having some meaning to their craft.

the author intending (or not intending) to include something in their work has no bearing on whether or not that thing is actually present in their work. pointing out elements of the text, even if the author didn't intend for them to be there, is not "mak[ing] it something deeper than it is."

averagejoel posted...

the author intending (or not intending) to include something in their work has no bearing on whether or not that thing is actually present in their work. pointing out elements of the text, even if the author didn't intend for them to be there, is not "mak[ing] it something deeper than it is."

Joel... They're American. They were actually learning about the books. I don't think they do simulations.

ApherosyLove posted...

Yeah I like this (admittedly pretentious) interpretation:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/5/7/AAZuMeAAESLx.jpg

Meta meme literacy analysis.

The fuck does that have to do with blue curtains?

What's the right literary move here?

Suppose you want to show how everyone was trying to pull of an "Inception" after the movie came out. You're doing this in a book. How do you do it? Do you mention the movie directly or not, and if not what do you do?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I almost took this at face value but decided to do some cursory googling, and it would appear my gut instincts as a 15 year old align more with literary consensus on the subject, including the author's own words, than what you've posited here.

Questionmarktarius posted...

The fuck does that have to do with blue curtains?

this guy never read The Blue Curtains by Ernesto Hemingwilde