Board 8 > Paper Mario Mafia Topic 8 - Plastic Codes Only Go To 7 Sorry

(+) Yeah! (+)

For what it's worth I wouldn't fight against a Kirby lynch too much because it doesn't track with his actions at all and the simplest answer for that is that he hadn't thought of the claim yesterday because he couldn't have. I'm just leaning towards not acting on that just yet because a scum death tonight would practically confirm him and if he's town it means it's one person scum has consider dealing with making us get actions off. Otherwise they just kill JC or me and RB the other. Yes, this still happens if Kirby is scum but yeah, I think my point is clear.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Let's say Kirby is town. That already makes it unlikely both him and I are alive tomorrow and one of us almost certainly ate a roleblock in that event unless we get lucky and lynch the roleblocker today. But if we do get to that part and no more scum are dead, then I will say claiming probably makes sense for Han and I as well.

But scum almost have to deal with Kirby if he's alive after today. Scans are dangerous but killing is something else.

I keep going back and forth on this. From purely play I think Han is the scummiest and you said you weren't 100% sure Han was town.

At the same time I am hesitant to out more information from you considering scum doesn't currently know where on the pecking order of priority you are.

Even if one of JC/Ben/Kirby is scum there are a lot of shot targets.

I guess then my real question is to give me some sort of analogy of how sure you are, because I'm going to be annoyed if you being sure Han isn't scum is you tracked him nowhere or something

Second'd.

I think almost everyone would say they were 100% on Han in my case. When I say almost it's "barring any unusual and/or very unpredictable weird gameplay events then Han is town".

I tried early in the day to compare to how I looked at Cody yesterday. Cody came in and said he was burned and would die after night 2. He said he was told a bit after day started. Then MZero immediately posts that some PMs went out a bit into the day and were supposed to go out in the night. It would have been almost impossible for Cody to fake the burn to such a degree.

There was that one game where Corrik was detective and scanned Ulti and is told he is town untargetable, mafia roleblocker or town princess. Then Ulti actually claims town princess, a role that never ever exists. As sure as Corrik was then.

It's hard to find concrete examples but it's definitely way more sure than just "Han didn't move" or "I cop scanned Han".

Ok. I'll buy you for now.

T1:
Kirby321 posted...

I... really don't understand what's so cryptic about my post.

I made a dumb joke about the lack of reactions to my opening post.

I offered my thoughts on Plum, then offered my thoughts on the whole Han vs. Sbell thing.

Is giving soft reads on other players not a good thing...? It's obviously too early to say "this person is definitely town/scum"

Sultan, you're at the epicenter of Han and Sbell's whole thing. What do you make of their alignments?

Tldr: cfwr, spin it over to now-confirmed town.

Kirby321 posted...

I don't like that you're avoiding Peaf's question to you. I thought you were getting on Peaf's case because he ignoring you, so this seems awfully hypocritical.

Peaf has a point. You just played a game where Sbell and Han were your scummates. Do you really have nothing to say on their little debate? Why are you tunneling on Peaf based on a very early Day 1 interaction and ignoring the rest of the game?

Latch onto a town argument against another player.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Speaks for herself!

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Time will tell if Lea was 1/3 for 2/3, but i still can't get over how fucking hilarious it was that she and sbell killed each other.

Kirby321 posted...

That's diminutive. If there was lots of other stuff going on in the game, then I agree that calling everyone town is the path of least resistance.

But nothing else has happened so far. I'm not going to lie and say "I thought Plum looked scummy for voting right out of the gate" because that's not what I honestly think.

I'm giving you a hard time, in any case. You said you don't have much else of an argument to make and are going on gut. Fair enough; you've debated with me enough to feel that your line of thought is at least cohesive even if it's ultimately wrong.

I don't think my initial impression of your alignment was wrong. This feels like a stark contrast to the last game, where it didn't feel like you were in your town element until Day 2 or 3 (because you were scum).

It feels like Kirby knew that his train would dwindle eventually... because the guy leading it is a teammate.

Kirby321 posted...

Gee, that's a lot of effort just to say you have no reads, amirite?

##Vote: Lea

This is in response to the Lea post i quoted earlier. She said she thought 3 people were town! That's not no reads!

Kirby321 posted separately, trying to get around the quote limit...

Gee, that's a lot of effort just to say you have no reads, amirite?

##Vote: Lea

.

I literally said that I leaned town on Sbell, Plum, and Han in the very post you accused me of stating no reads in.

And here you are stating that they're also town without further elaboration. Yet you claimed I had no reads, even though I shared and stated my reads with reasons to back them up.

This logic doesn't hold up at all. You've contradicted yourself.

He's trying so, so hard to appear town. Got reasons and everything, see!

Still going, but have to do some work. Just fun revisiting old things.

ctesjbuvf posted...

There was that one game where Corrik was detective and scanned Ulti and is told he is town untargetable, mafia roleblocker or town princess. Then Ulti actually claims town princess, a role that never ever exists. As sure as Corrik was then.

Fair enough

ctesjbuvf posted...

Though I can find that he criticizes Ben for not doing exactly that.

I criticized Ben for it because he said he laid down hints. I don't claim to have done such a thing, not earlier than Day 3 at the very least.

Truth be told, I was completely prepared to fake claim Vanilla in a mass claim to conceal my role (which wouldn't have been a complete lie since I was effectively Vanilla until Sultan died), so I made sure not to breadcrumb (though I was fully willing to claim my actual role at the end of Day 2 there when my life was on the line). I know that sounds weird, but I was under the impression that Hero was some sort of powerful role. I wanted my back-up status to be completely hidden from scum until it was necessary for me to claim in full.

Anyway, I'm still in support of a mass claim, so I'm leaving my vote on Red in case he shows up again. Otherwise, I'm still raising my eyebrow at Hb and Ben's roles conflicting in flavor. I'm leaning toward Hb. We've had four Star Spirits claimed, all of whom are vanilla. The only players that claim to be vanilla but not Star Spirits are Hb and Peaf.

I think we get more info out of Hb's lynch. If he flips scum, that lends more credence to Ben's role being legit, and also puts into question whether Peaf is being truthful or not. If Hb flips town, Ben's role is still dubious and Peaf's flavor could still be real.

Kirby321 posted...

Gee, that's a lot of effort just to say you have no reads, amirite?

##Vote: Lea

Kirby321 posted...

I literally said that I leaned town on Sbell, Plum, and Han in the very post you accused me of stating no reads in.

And here you are stating that they're also town without further elaboration. Yet you claimed I had no reads, even though I shared and stated my reads with reasons to back them up.

This logic doesn't hold up at all. You've contradicted yourself.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Again, speaks for herself.

All of hb's interactions on page 6 here are attacking Sultan for his Kirby vote, or replying to sbell.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Come at me bro! You want to mislynch me you gotta try harder than that!

Sultan thought his claim would protect him and he was cocky as hell about it. I love this.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Peaf, are you and Dumey having a spat like me and SBell or should I read into it more?

In retrospect this is very funny because it would imply that if Han is town then dumey is scum, and if Han is scum then we'd all be on the same team together.

On mobile so lost my other comments from the other topic. Frustrating. I should just do the old school italics in notepad.
Anyway, i think Kirby and Plum both looked worse on t1 page 7.

Kirby321 posted...

Anyway, I'm still in support of a mass claim, so I'm leaving my vote on Red in case he shows up again. Otherwise, I'm still raising my eyebrow at Hb and Ben's roles conflicting in flavor. I'm leaning toward Hb. We've had four Star Spirits claimed, all of whom are vanilla. The only players that claim to be vanilla but not Star Spirits are Hb and Peaf.

I think we get more info out of Hb's lynch. If he flips scum, that lends more credence to Ben's role being legit, and also puts into question whether Peaf is being truthful or not. If Hb flips town, Ben's role is still dubious and Peaf's flavor could still be real.

Why are you deflecting like this? You previously argued that ben's role can't exist with yours. Why do you swap yourself with hb now, from that position?

If you call my truthfulness into question, then you're also arguing that i knew that my buddy Plum would save me and that my buddy hb wouldn't actually vote for me, and that my buddy han would tie things up. I'd need quite a lot of things to go right for me on day 1.

It really reads like you want to throw hb under the bus to make yourself look better, and to make me look worse. For me to be scum then I'd need hb and Plum to at least both be scum, but if either or both of them are scum it doesn't not imply that i myself am scum. Though I'll admit it certainly increases the likelihood to an uninformed observer.

Kirby321 posted...

Otherwise, I'm still raising my eyebrow at Hb and Ben's roles conflicting in flavor.

Do you think one of them claimed off of the safelist?

Kirby321 posted...

Anyway, I'm still in support of a mass claim, so I'm leaving my vote on Red in

I dont know why anyone would call for this after a doctor flip. It really isn't a great play.

Well it's either today or, if we lynch town, then tomorrow.

And you are a huge question mark, my friend.

Peace___Frog posted...

Why are you deflecting like this? You previously argued that ben's role can't exist with yours. Why do you swap yourself with hb now, from that position?

If you call my truthfulness into question, then you're also arguing that i knew that my buddy Plum would save me and that my buddy hb wouldn't actually vote for me, and that my buddy han would tie things up. I'd need quite a lot of things to go right for me on day 1

When did I say Ben's role couldn't exist with mine? I said the whole "helping Mario unlock sealed powers of the Star Spirits" thing was bullshit because of my role and that Ben's role was otherwise damn near useless. If all the Star Spirit claims are true, though, then Ben's role might hold more merit than we had thought.

And I'm not ready to conclude what everyone's alignments are just yet, but we can't discount any possibility at this point. The fact that you and Hb are the only Vanillas who did not claim Star Spirits is a little uncanny, you have to admit.

Nonetheless, I very much consider Han as a non-factor in your almost lynch. His vote was clearly in response to Red's vote on you, as Han didn't want you lynched. I don't think that's necessarily alignment indicative of Han.

Plum could still be town. Your alignment has no bearing on his actions during overtime.

Nonetheless, I don't feel confident enough to call the scum team without more info. There's a chance that my flavor theory for my role could be wrong, and I agree with Ctes that there seems to be a little too many Vanillas, especially with how relatively weak this town seems to be with scanning powers.

I'll be honest, Plum claiming vanilla Star Spirit has made me think twice about Ben's role.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Do you think one of them claimed off of the safelist?

That's the thing I can't seem to figure out. But it just doesn't make sense that Hb's flavor explicitly mentions Twink as Peach's proxy even though Ben has claimed Twink.

I think Plum was the one who brought this up, but it's possible Hb claimed off the safelist and dropped the whole "Peach votes by having Twink do it for her" without thinking about Ben's claim.

Going to look through kirby's end of day posts to see if he is consistent

Kirby321 posted...

That's the thing I can't seem to figure out. But it just doesn't make sense that Hb's flavor explicitly mentions Twink as Peach's proxy even though Ben has claimed Twink.

Literally every single flip we've had mentions at least one other character, most of them Mario, who is confirmed to be in the game. This is such a weird case because flavor is just a description of their place in the actual game and Peach's role is using twink to communicate with Mario.

Kirby321 posted...

Plum could still be town. Your alignment has no bearing on his actions during overtime.

I think that he is probably town. I am saying that if you think i am scum, it would very logically follow that he is too.

Kirby321 posted...

When did I say Ben's role couldn't exist with mine? I said the whole "helping Mario unlock sealed powers of the Star Spirits" thing was bullshit because of my role and that Ben's role was otherwise damn near useless. If all the Star Spirit claims are true, though, then Ben's role might hold more merit than we had thought.

Ben's role explicitly makes yours stronger, and assists town with poe in the form of weak cop scans, assuming he is being truthful. His actions up to now make me think that he is.
I guess you never explicitly said that you can't coexist, but you came out harder than almost anyone else against him. Plum also voiced a lot of suspicions. But you led that charge. That's why i thought you said you two can't coexist, i was mistaken there.
My argument wrt Ben against you is that, after you got your powers, you still refused to see how Ben's power was a boon to you. That doesn't scream "town figuring things out" to me. So it is very bizarre that you place ben against hb here.

Also I can't stress enough how much I dislike any case made against Hb and Peaf because of them claiming non-star spirit vanillas because this would mean that scum's most usual mafia claim (vanilla) would eventually trap them. It's ridiculous. It would be terrible setup and I don't believe it for a second.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Literally every single flip we've had mentions at least one other character, most of them Mario, who is confirmed to be in the game. This is such a weird case because flavor is just a description of their place in the actual game and Peach's role is using twink to communicate with Mario.

Does no else find it odd that Hb would be using Ben in-flavor as a proxy?

Someone else described it best in that Hb isn't just Peach. He's like "Peach + Twink". And that's what bothers me.

It's like having two players in a Smash Bros. Mafia and one is "Ice Climbers" while the other is "Popo"

Kirby321 posted...

That's the thing I can't seem to figure out. But it just doesn't make sense that Hb's flavor explicitly mentions Twink as Peach's proxy even though Ben has claimed Twink.

I think Plum was the one who brought this up, but it's possible Hb claimed off the safelist and dropped the whole "Peach votes by having Twink do it for her" without thinking about Ben's claim.

So let's flip this. If a town pm mentions another character by name, and that character is also on the safe list, then that is a MAJOR dick move by mzero and lopen.
Ergo, hb is more likely to be the liar.

Kirby321 posted...

Does no else find it odd that Hb would be using Ben in-flavor as a proxy?

Someone else described it best in that Hb isn't just Peach. He's like "Peach + Twink". And that's what bothers me.

It's like having two players in a Smash Bros. Mafia and one is "Ice Climbers" while the other is "Popo"

If he claimed to be Peach and Twink then I must have missed it. I'm pretty sure he just claimed Peach and said his flavor mentioning Twink.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Also I can't stress enough how much I dislike any case made against Hb and Peaf because of them claiming non-star spirit vanillas because this would mean that scum's most usual mafia claim (vanilla) would eventually trap them. It's ridiculous. It would be terrible setup and I don't believe it for a second.

I agree. It's why my argument against hb has nothing to do with the stars.

Isquen [4] (Sultan), EDumey, (Han), (Lea), Kirby, Lea, Han
Peaf [3] - (Han), Ben, (Han), (Plum), Death, red
Lea [2] (Kirby), Sbell, JC
Plum [2] Peaf, (Han), Sultan
Han [1] - Isquen, (JC), (Sultan)
Sultan [1] - (Plum), Hb, (Isquen)

Sultan [4] (Plum), (Ulti), (Ulti), Plum, Hb, Peaf, red,
Kirby [2] - (Dumey), Ben, Sultan
Dumey [2] - (Ulti), Han, Kirby
Han [2] - JC, (Ulti), Ulti
JC [1] (Han), (Peaf), ctes
Hb [1] - Death, (Sultan)
ctes [1] - Dumey

Initial thought: Man these are both such trash votals.

I think the big question here is if Kirby is scum, was he actually in danger of getting lynched D2? If only one person flipped to him he could possibly have been lynched... Well Kirby actually wasn't even on Sultan. Hmm.

Kirby321 posted...

Suffice to say, I'm going to be salty if Ben walks free and then we end up specialing a better power role. I don't think there's any risk in lynching Ben.

Hour and a half before lynch. Kirby wanting to lynch ben.

Kirby321 posted...

When did Sultan start thinking I was scum lol

55 minutes to lynch, Sultan votes Kirby.

Kirby321 posted...

Seems these are the votals now?

Votals:

Kirby [3] - Dumey, Ben, Sultan
Han [2] - JC, Ulti
Sultan [2] (Plum), (Ulti), (Ulti), Plum, Hb
JC [1] (Han), (Peaf), ctes
Hb [1] - Death, (Sultan)
Ben [0] - (Sultan), (Kirby), (Plum), (Ulti), (Dumey)
Ulti [0] - (Sultan)
Dumey [1] - (Ulti), Han
Death [0] - (Peaf), (Dumey)

Kirby321 posted...

Well, I'm not gonna vote for you without a claim, Sultan. I'm interested in not lynching town powers.

50 minutes before, Kirby gives this weird statement. Usually the vote comes before the claim not after

If we're trying to talk about information lynches, then I still think Kirby is a very good place to test because it pretty much can soft confirm Ben's alignment as the opposite. And we then get a lot of info based on that. I didn't post much since last night, but I think my preferred action still seems pretty obvious. Lynch Kirby who I think looks the scummiest and just fake claimed, which is also a good information lynch on top of that.

I just can't get over how they very adamantly pushed me to claim (which again, conveniently made it so it wasn't a same-time claim like they initially asked for), then confidently condemned me as scum in their claim post, but then limped away when no one else bought in. I don't know if they were just that confident that their logic on hammer missing was going to make everyone want to lynch me or what.

I am comfortable sitting on this vote and think it's the correct option for lynching scum, AND giving worthwhile info.

Ok hold on

Kirby321 posted...

Also, I have reason to believe that MZero is not intentionally hiding secret powers from other players in their role PMs.

So none of this "activates a secret power" nonsense.

Did anything in what Kirby claimed match up with this at all?

Peace___Frog posted...

My argument wrt Ben against you is that, after you got your powers, you still refused to see how Ben's power was a boon to you. That doesn't scream "town figuring things out" to me. So it is very bizarre that you place ben against hb here.

What's the difference between Ben telling me "yo this dude is NOT a Star Spirit" and that person just... claiming their flavor?

Whatever use Ben's role could have given me or Sultan is incredibly niche. Ben's role is either a Vanilla Cop for scum or, if town, someone who can confirm another person town if that person has claimed and requiring Ben to out himself to give Sultan that information.

I'm not gonna argue about this any further. Everything Han said to you earlier in this Day pretty much sums up my own thoughts on why this whole "Ben's role helps out Mario" thing is not nearly as solid of an argument as you might think it is. And I am tired of repeating myself.

masterplum posted...

Ok hold on

Did anything in what Kirby claimed match up with this at all?

Yes.

Peace___Frog posted...

Yes.

How so?

masterplum posted...

Ok hold on

Did anything in what Kirby claimed match up with this at all?

Honestly that quote is the best argument for him being town I think.

EDumey posted...

If we're trying to talk about information lynches, then I still think Kirby is a very good place to test because it pretty much can soft confirm Ben's alignment as the opposite. And we then get a lot of info based on that. I didn't post much since last night, but I think my preferred action still seems pretty obvious. Lynch Kirby who I think looks the scummiest and just fake claimed, which is also a good information lynch on top of that.

I just can't get over how they very adamantly pushed me to claim (which again, conveniently made it so it wasn't a same-time claim like they initially asked for), then confidently condemned me as scum in their claim post, but then limped away when no one else bought in. I don't know if they were just that confident that their logic on hammer missing was going to make everyone want to lynch me or what.

I am comfortable sitting on this vote and think it's the correct option for lynching scum, AND giving worthwhile info.

I agree with your conclusion but I'm not willing to say that Kirby and Ben are opposites. My argument for why Ben's role would be beneficial to Hero all also applicable to backup Hero.

My stance is that i don't think Kirby is a backup Hero.

Kirby321 posted...

Whatever use Ben's role could have given me or Sultan is incredibly niche. Ben's role is either a Vanilla Cop for scum or, if town, someone who can confirm another person town if that person has claimed and requiring Ben to out himself to give Sultan that information.

The thing that is making me waiver on Ben is maybe a town vanilla confirmer works.

The more I think about it the more I think its actually a stronger role than I anticipated because it confirms town vanillas that scum don't want to kill.

Power is not the reason to be skeptical. The reason to be skeptical is town vanilla scanner would also be an excellent scum role

masterplum posted...

How so?

His backup Hero claim says that it's very explicitly defined as to when he gets his powers. It's after there's no Hero. Very direct.

Kirby321 posted...

Ben's role is either a Vanilla Cop for scum or, if town, someone who can confirm another person town if that person has claimed and requiring Ben to out himself to give Sultan that information.

But this is explicitly wrong because i am not a star and i am a vanilla.

We don't have to argue on this any further. We've deviated from my point - i don't like how you put hb and Ben against one another in your review.

masterplum posted...

How so?

His supposed role pretty clearly states that he has powers that will be activated and is told exactly what it makes. He's using that to argue star spirits would not have hidden powers to activate because he has powers that are hidden.

Well, hidden in the sense that he didn't know them but he knows they exist. The star spirit flips we've had have no clear indications that they're more than vanilla.

Peace___Frog posted...

His backup Hero claim says that it's very explicitly defined as to when he gets his powers. It's after there's no Hero. Very direct.

HMMM

Good point

EDumey posted...

If we're trying to talk about information lynches, then I still think Kirby is a very good place to test because it pretty much can soft confirm Ben's alignment as the opposite. And we then get a lot of info based on that. I didn't post much since last night, but I think my preferred action still seems pretty obvious. Lynch Kirby who I think looks the scummiest and just fake claimed, which is also a good information lynch on top of that.

I just can't get over how they very adamantly pushed me to claim (which again, conveniently made it so it wasn't a same-time claim like they initially asked for), then confidently condemned me as scum in their claim post, but then limped away when no one else bought in. I don't know if they were just that confident that their logic on hammer missing was going to make everyone want to lynch me or what.

I am comfortable sitting on this vote and think it's the correct option for lynching scum, AND giving worthwhile info.

Dumey, you didn't want to claim today. I wanted to claim today as I have been very clear about. JC and I wanted a mass claim.

Also, Peaf, what do you think of this statement? You're arguing that Ben's role and Sultan's role are mutually beneficial to each other. Dumey is saying Ben and I are of opposite alignments.

I didn't want to spell this out for everyone just in case scum had a way to sabotage me... but let me be clear, Dumey. I'm not worried about you getting lynched.

You will die by my hands tonight if you aren't lynched today.

Kirby said because the back-up role specifically states they have powers waiting to be unlocked, they thought it was unlikely the Vanillas had "secret" unlocks that they weren't aware of.

I still think this doesn't exactly make sense. Because Kirby knowing their role unlocks on another player's death incentivizes them to stay quiet about it. The Vanillas knowing they might have powers if some secret condition is met would only incentivize every Star Vanilla to claim in hopes that they get to have more fun in the game. IMO that would be a very bad setup to have all your Vanilla outing themselves, so the idea of activatable powers being hidden from them was still a possibility.

Note that I don't think that means a Town Kirby with that role would come to the same conclusion as me, I just think it wouldn't hold up.

Peace___Frog posted...

But this is explicitly wrong because i am not a star and i am a vanilla.

We don't have to argue on this any further. We've deviated from my point - i don't like how you put hb and Ben against one another in your review.

Oh yeah that's true

##Unvote

That actually makes it more likely to be a town role.

Something isn't adding up here

Peace___Frog posted...

I agree with your conclusion but I'm not willing to say that Kirby and Ben are opposites. My argument for why Ben's role would be beneficial to Hero all also applicable to backup Hero.

My stance is that i don't think Kirby is a backup Hero.

My analysis that Kirby and Ben are opposites are not based on role meta, but on how Kirby relentlessly pursued Ben after his claim, even before Sultan flipped.

The role meta just helps, because I don't think Back-up Hero with no idea of what their powers were would deny Ben's theory that hard.

masterplum posted...

Power is not the reason to be skeptical. The reason to be skeptical is town vanilla scanner would also be an excellent scum role

I concur. Ben's alignment based purely on his role right now is ambiguous. You can make arguments for his role being either alignment, and Star Spirit Seeker could also be faked as a Flavor Cop.

But given how weak Town's scanning power has been (we don't seem to have a traditional Cop or full Flavor Cop as I initially thought we would have), I'm a little hesitant to immediately conclude Ben's role is scum.

Kirby321 posted...

I didn't want to spell this out for everyone just in case scum had a way to sabotage me... but let me be clear, Dumey. I'm not worried about you getting lynched.

...jc claimed rb'd, you know

Kirby321 posted...

You will die by my hands tonight if you aren't lynched today.

Why would you even announce this like this as town?

Now if you are Town, scum lets the kill go through while role blocked a scanner instead.

Or if you are scum, you kill a scanner and claimed you were roleblocked because you announced you were going to kill me.

This is just an anti-town action in general.

Han even went through the effort of giving you an out earlier by having you test HB to see if your theory on the Hammer ability made sense or not, but now I can't even entertain that, because you've announced you'll kill me instead. Now I HAVE to advocate your lynch above all others.

Kirby321 posted...

I concur. Ben's alignment based purely on his role right now is ambiguous. You can make arguments for his role being either alignment, and Star Spirit Seeker could also be faked as a Flavor Cop.

I have proven this to be false. Ben COULD BE a mafia flavor scanner, but it is not a vanilla scanner. I am proof of that.