Poll of the Day > Can somebody explain the Biden documents drama to me?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Count_Drachma posted...

In BS0's mind, it's not a problem when an elected Democrat does anything. For the non-zealots, it proves what every reasonable person has known all along -- this IS a common thing and the claims about Trump's files were ginned up beyond hyperbole and were made in bad faith.

Taking classified documents is a common thing. Hiding classified documents and actively interfering with efforts to retrieve them is not.

Count_Drachma posted...

In BS0's mind, it's not a problem when an elected Democrat does anything. For the non-zealots, it proves what every reasonable person has known all along -- this IS a common thing and the claims about Trump's files were ginned up beyond hyperbole and were made in bad faith.

So you're just going to lie about what Trump did.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/3/7/AAUdByAAEFaR.jpg

I don't even know what these guys are mad about tbh. One side has no integrity, the other does.

Attorney General Merrick Garland on Thursday appointed a special counsel to investigate the presence of classified documents found at President Joe Bidens home in Wilmington, Delaware, and at an unsecured office in Washington dating from his time as vice president.

Robert Hur, a onetime U.S. attorney appointed by former President Donald Trump, will lead the investigation and plans to begin his work soon. His appointment marks the second time in a few months that Garland has appointed a special counsel, an extraordinary fact that reflects the Justice Departments efforts to independently conduct high-profile probes in an exceedingly heated political environment.

It's telling how Ozmose and Zeus ignore what has been posted about the *differences* between the two cases, and choose to focus on the similarities and keep beating that drum, echoing Trump's own propaganda techniques...

Grendel_Prime posted...

It's telling how Ozmose and Zeus ignore what has been posted about the *differences* between the two cases, and choose to focus on the similarities and keep beating that drum, echoing Trump's own propaganda techniques...

I wasn't really focusing on anything. It sounds to me like you don't understand that people don't need to follow the narrative you want them to. BTW the similarities are the important part here, since that's where the actual legal issues lie. When someone commits a crime. It doesn't matter if they fight it or turn themselves in. The crime still happened regardless. It may play into sentencing, but it should have no bearing on whether it's prosecuted or not.

It doesn't matter if they fight it or turn themselves in.

It does matter when not turning oneself in is part of the crime, which is what you continue to ignore.

As others and myself have pointed out, if Biden is to face charges for his role in his situation, so be it. He should face charges.

Trump, his staff, and his acquaintances, through their behaviors and actions surrounding this case, have opened themselves up to a litany of other, more severe charges.

So, no. The differences are what's important here. Because negligence and mismanagement, while dire and consequential in themselves, pale in comparison to the accusations of espionage levied toward Trump and his people.

Claim I'm running a narrative all you want. One of us clearly is acknowledging all of the facts in both cases, while the other picks and chooses what facts matter to them.

Biden took classified documents from the WH when he was VP and I don't think you are allowed to take them for personal possession because well they are classified.

It's akin to CEO leaving KFC and taking a copy of the secret recipe because there's no need to have it after you are gone from that job.

BUMPED2002 posted...

Biden took classified documents from the WH when he was VP and I don't think you are allowed to take them for personal possession because well they are classified.

It's akin to CEO leaving KFC and taking a copy of the secret recipe because there's no need to have it after you are gone from that job.

If he took them for personal possession then why where they returned when found? Pull your head out of your rear.

Grendel_Prime posted...

Claim I'm running a narrative all you want. One of us clearly is acknowledging all of the facts in both cases, while the other picks and chooses what facts matter to them.

I could personally give a shit less either way. I'd prefer neither of them be able to run again. The facts I'm looking at are the ones that will actually stick in court. You're bringing up stuff like espionage, but there's not a damn bit of evidence of that that would hold up in court. If that's what they want to chase to charge him with, they'll fail yet again. They could have probably had him on obstruction the last time around, but the dems would rather paint him as the devil incarnate and shoot for the biggest crime possible. If they would have just pushed on what they had actionable evidence on, this could have been settled years ago. They're dooming themselves with their own political theater.

i say we have biden and trump fight in a cage match. loser goes to jail!!

Count_Drachma posted...

In BS0's mind, it's not a problem when an elected Democrat does anything. For the non-zealots, it proves what every reasonable person has known all along -- this IS a common thing and the claims about Trump's files were ginned up beyond hyperbole and were made in bad faith.

And for dumbest shit said in this topic, which is an amazing feet considering...

Its like Zeus has writers to find the most asinine incorrect statements to shit out.

Ozmose posted...

The facts I'm looking at are the ones that will actually stick in court. You're bringing up stuff like espionage, but there's not a damn bit of evidence of that that would hold up in court. If that's what they want to chase to charge him with, they'll fail yet again.

That you're willing to write off the more severe charges Trump could be facing indicates you do give a shit one way over the other. You're dismissive of the greater charges, yet open to the lesser.

You say the charges won't hold up, but may I remind you that this situation is far different than the failed impeachments under a Republican-run Senate. Those impeachments were not criminal indictments. They were constitutional processes.

The warrant which the FBI utilized when searching Mar-A-Lago could only be obtained with probable cause that Trump had violated the law. The evidence gathered goes toward proving their case. I bring up espionage because at least one of the laws cited on the warrant was drafted under the 1917 Espionage Act.

There's a long way to go for this to work it's way through the courts. Claiming the charges won't hold up is jumping the gun by a lot. Much of this is unprecedented. We just had two insurrectionists convicted of seditious conspiracy. Anything is possible, and much is left to be seen.

ZangsBeard posted...

And for dumbest shit said in this topic, which is an amazing feet considering...

Its like Zeus has writers to find the most asinine incorrect statements to shit out.

I know some on this board have an unspoken betting pool between Russia's propaganda machine and the US's Fox News--as in the writers behind either same-flavored entity--as Zeus's source of misinformation. I just choose not to ask who's part of this pool, nor how to buy into it. <_<

I don't think you really get what I'm saying . . .
Let me put it this way. They didn't hook Al Capone on murder, racketeering, or robbery. Why? Because they weren't idiots, so they went with the slam dunk. Tax evasion. After that, they had all the time in the world to pursue whatever else they wanted.

Ozmose posted...

I don't think you really get what I'm saying . . .
Let me put it this way. They didn't hook Al Capone on murder, racketeering, or robbery. Why? Because they weren't idiots, so they went with the slam dunk. Tax evasion. After that, they had all the time in the world to pursue whatever else they wanted.

I'm at least 91% certain the "slam dunk" case is a myth perpetuated by the entertainment industry, and 27% certain Al Capone was handed a trumped charge and sentence he couldn't fight due to political reasons. But I have no way of proving either.

Ozmose posted...

When someone commits a crime. It doesn't matter if they fight it or turn

Ozmose posted...

When someone commits a crime. It doesn't matter if they fight it or turn themselves in.

Those two differences matter a lot. It can even be life or death.

Talking out his ass as usual

lulz:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/politics/pence-classified-documents-fbi/index.html

Lokarin posted...

lulz:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/politics/pence-classified-documents-fbi/index.html

That sounds a lot more analogous to Biden's situation, and to that end, I'm not too concerned about it. Based on what is currently known, it sounds like another honest mistake that his team acted to rectify as soon as it was realized. Sure, it's possible that it wasn't actually a mistake and he knew he had them and just went this route because he didn't think he'd be able to keep it hidden, but until further evidence emerges, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/4/9/AAQwHjAAEHrx.jpg

3rd time and now it's just comedy

Ozmose posted...

They found a bunch of classified documents in an old office he used shortly after his term as vice president. Essentially the same thing everyone lost their shit over with Trump. If you can't tell, the media is treating this story just a bit differently.

Yuck it only took until post 3 for the maga nutjobs to start coming out

Ferron posted...

Yuck it only took until post 3 for the maga nutjobs to start coming out

I don't even like Trump dipshit. Just because you're a devoted Biden fart sniffer, doesn't make everyone that isn't a "maga nutjob".

One good thing to come out of all this is that people are probably conducting more searches to make sure more classified documents are found and returned.

Judgmenl posted...

Non-issue just like with the Trump documents.

Trump committed willful retention (and openly admitted to doing so in interviews). Biden and Pence did not; they immediately returned the documents.

So many of you don't understand the situation at all. Having classified documents stored insecurely is inarguably *bad,* but WILLFULLY RETAINING AND REFUSING TO RETURN THEM is a CRIME. Example:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/government-contractor-facing-federal-indictment-willful-retention-national-defense

If you, through some incredibly bizarre twist of fate, find classified information stored in your house, that is a bad situation in general, but you haven't done anything wrong. However, if after finding this and recognizing that this information is classified, you *choose to keep it or refuse to return it or whatever,* you are breaking the law.

Ozmose posted...

They found a bunch of classified documents in an old office he used shortly after his term as vice president. Essentially the same thing everyone lost their shit over with Trump. If you can't tell, the media is treating this story just a bit differently.

The difference is that Trump sold those documents to the Saudis. It has not been proven that Biden did the same.

Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of political parties being treated like a sports team. If Biden commited a crime lock him up. If Trump commited a crime, lock him up.

It really is that simple

Psythik posted...

The difference is that Trump sold those documents to the Saudis. It has not been proven that Biden did the same.

Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of political parties being treated like a sports team. If Biden commited a crime lock him up. If Trump commited a crime, lock him up.

It really is that simple

Lol. The irony of the bolded. There's no evidence Trump did either.

I like how you completely failed to miss my point. So I'll quote it below so you can actually read it this time:

Psythik posted...

Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of political parties being treated like a sports team. If Biden commited a crime lock him up. If Trump commited a crime, lock him up.

It really is that simple

Ozmose posted...

I don't even like Trump dipshit. Just because you're a devoted Biden fart sniffer, doesn't make everyone that isn't a "maga nutjob".

Sorry, but if one downplays the more severe aspects of Trump's actions in his case and claims Biden did "essentially" the same thing - as you've done in this very topic - then they're echoing the talking points of those "maga nutjobs" and can no longer claim they lack bias.

I've seen you attempt to walk the "both sides" line several times on this board, but your comments betray that sentiment. You may not be a full-on "maga nutjob", but you clearly have more overlap with them in your ideological Venn diagram than some other posters here.

Psythik posted...

I like how you completely failed to miss my point. So I'll quote it below so you can actually read it this time:

No you said he flat out did it. There's no evidence either did.

Trump stole the documents.

pence and biden did not. Its that simple.

trumps refusal to return, outright lies by his counsel regarding possession of the documents and fight to hold onto the documents is evidence of his intentions. Even if he initially took them by accident, once he became aware he was in possession of them it was no longer an accident.

likewise pence and Bidens co operation in returning the document and self reporting possession of the documents is evidence that neither had any intent to take them in the first place.

its really that simple and a google of the matter would turn up any number of expert legal opinions by actual lawyers who specialize In the matter.

completely non partisan applying the law to two different fact patterns.

Conner4REAL posted...

Trump stole the documents.

pence and biden did not. Its that simple.

THANK YOU. I just don't understand why so many people don't seem to comprehend this simple fact, and I used to be one of them. I voted for Trump in 2016. But then I saw what happens when you elect an idiot for president, and switched parties after less than a year. I don't understand why people continue to defend this idiot.

And don't even get me started on DeSantis. Dude looks and sounds like a wet noodle when he speaks; this is the guy you want running for president in 2024? Have you even heard him talk? I just don't get it. Dude speaks with zero confidence, like he asked his mother for permission first before going on the podium.

Revelation34 posted...

No you said he flat out did it. There's no evidence either did.

What does that have to do with me being tired of politics being treated like sports? I don't follow your logic. Pls explain

Conner4REAL posted...

Trump stole the documents.

pence and biden did not. Its that simple.

trumps refusal to return, outright lies by his counsel regarding possession of the documents and fight to hold onto the documents is evidence of his intentions. Even if he initially took them by accident, once he became aware he was in possession of them it was no longer an accident.

likewise pence and Bidens co operation in returning the document and self reporting possession of the documents is evidence that neither had any intent to take them in the first place.

its really that simple and a google of the matter would turn up any number of expert legal opinions by actual lawyers who specialize In the matter.

completely non partisan applying the law to two different fact patterns.

Care to back that up with some evidence?

As far as I can tell, Trump is the only one that actually had administrative discretion around the time any of these documents were moved. Some of the documents Biden had dated back to when he was still just a senator, so those ones in particular are a very big no no. None of them should have had them regardless. I don't get why people are sooo desperate to shill for Biden. He's just another crooked politician. He doesn't give a shit about you any more than Trump does.

Says the guy shilling for Trump lol

Ozmose posted...

Care to back that up with some evidence?

As I said before, it all comes down to intention.

If you made a mistake in handling classified material and you immediately contacted your FSO and turned in any material you had, you would probably be investigated. If it was an honest mistake, even if it was a stupid mistake, the worst thing that will happen is you'll lose your clearance and possibly your job. This appears to be the case with Biden and Pence. Someone found material that had been misplaced and they went "Oops!" and immediately turned it in.

Trump didn't do this. He held on to the material. He lied about having it. He tried to hide it. He claimed it was his to take. And investigators found empty classified folders, meaning the contents were likely missing. There was no "Oops!" here, his behavior indicates this was clearly NOT an honest mistake, this was criminal mishandling of classified material.

-----

18 U.S. Code 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material.
(a)Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

The key items in that passage are "knowingly removes" and "with the intent to retain".

captpackrat posted...

The key items in that passage are "knowingly removes" and "with the intent to retain".

I think the issue here is that intent is it's a very difficult thing to solidify in a court. I think it could probably work out fine for Pence, but with Biden's case, they're going to need to go back decades for some of this stuff. The defense can say it was a simple mistake and it was just missed/forgotten, but the prosecution can just as easily argue there was fell intent, which will ultimately lead to a serious deep dive into his history. It opens up the opportunity to go fishing, and if he's like every other politician, there's no shortage of dirty secrets that could be equally undoing for him.

Revelation34 posted...

Lol. The irony of the bolded. There's no evidence Trump did either.

Lol the irony of thinking that. There is a ton of evidence Trump did all of that.

Arcturusisnow posted...

Lol the irony of thinking that. There is a ton of evidence Trump did all of that.

Prove he sold anything to the Saudis

Ozmose posted...

I think the issue here is that intent is it's a very difficult thing to solidify in a court. I think it could probably work out fine for Pence, but with Biden's case, they're going to need to go back decades for some of this stuff. The defense can say it was a simple mistake and it was just missed/forgotten, but the prosecution can just as easily argue there was fell intent, which will ultimately lead to a serious deep dive into his history. It opens up the opportunity to go fishing, and if he's like every other politician, there's no shortage of dirty secrets that could be equally undoing for him.

That's an awful lot of speculation and "coulda-woulda-shoulda", which doesn't fly in court.

Working with the current facts, there is evidence that Biden, Pence, and Trump all held on to classified documents improperly.

Two of them, Pence and Biden, cooperated with investigators and turned over everything that they were aware they had, and continue to work with officials to ensure everything is recovered.

To quote captpackrat:

captpackrat posted...

Trump didn't do this. He held on to the material. He lied about having it. He tried to hide it. He claimed it was his to take. And investigators found empty classified folders, meaning the contents were likely missing. There was no "Oops!" here, his behavior indicates this was clearly NOT an honest mistake, this was criminal mishandling of classified material.