Board 8 > A question to the trans community of board 8.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I was having shall we say a heated debate with a friend of mine and one point he used the word "trap" to refer to trans women. I told him that was a slur and he shouldn't use that word to describe a person. He disagreed and said he "knew several trans women that call themselves traps." I found that hard to believe. The only time I've heard the term used is in the pejorative. Am I wrong? Has the word "trap" become something that trans people have "taken back" like the n-word? If it is, is it still wrong for someone outside the community to use the word?

It's certainly a tricky situation, it's true that there are some trans women who use it regarding themselves but I would absolutely *not* assume it's acceptable to everyone as like you say it very much *is* offensive to many if not most, and rightfully so.

For me personally, yeah the term grosses me out. It insinuates that we aren't who we say we are and that by presenting female we are fooling people who see us women - it's not, we *are* women so it's not a "trap" to be seen as we are. I have cis male friends who enjoy crossplay and enjoy the term for themselves and absolutely that's fine, they're male so it doesn't mind me at all because they like to appear passing in cross while living as a man - they are not trans women. If they used the term on me I'd be pissed.

Unfortunately the majority of the cis public has a complete lack of understanding around trans people and in their ignorance they often blend femboys+crossdressers+drag with trans women which is where the problems come from, with that frustration all falling solely on trans women.

Most trans women do not claim the word trap at all like other slurs. I accept that some are fine with it - often they're also fine with being referred to as femboys as well - but that is absolutely *not* the norm so only use it if the specific person enjoys it... and even then I personally would never do it unless they're actually cis (although even then I personally wouldn't but I don't care if others do).

Another issue with traps is it's historical association with fetishization which trans women largely want no part of - once again not all, some actually do, but it plays into a lot of hateful rhetoric we get baggaged with people sexualizing our existence and arguing we're inappropriate for all-ages representation. Think back to a lot of 2000s 4chan culture parading femboy characters as some sorta gotcha to call people gay for being attracted to boys, a lot of that shit's annoying for us. Many of just want to live and be seen as we are and not be the butt of some joke that inherently puts an asterisk on our gender.

Grimlyn posted...

It's certainly a tricky situation, it's true that there are some trans women who use it regarding themselves but I would absolutely *not* assume it's acceptable to everyone as like you say it very much *is* offensive to many if not most, and rightfully so.

For me personally, yeah the term grosses me out. It insinuates that we aren't who we say we are and that by presenting female we are fooling people who see us women - it's not, we *are* women so it's not a "trap" to be seen as we are. I have cis male friends who enjoy crossplay and enjoy the term for themselves and absolutely that's fine, they're male so it doesn't mind me at all because they like to appear passing in cross while living as a man - they are not trans women. If they used the term on me I'd be pissed.

Unfortunately the majority of the cis public has a complete lack of understanding around trans people and in their ignorance they often blend femboys+crossdressers+drag with trans women which is where the problems come from, with that frustration all falling solely on trans women.

Most trans women do not claim the word trap at all like other slurs. I accept that some are fine with it - often they're also fine with being referred to as femboys as well - but that is absolutely *not* the norm so only use it if the specific person enjoys it... and even then I personally would never do it unless they're actually cis (although even I personally wouldn't but I don't care if others do).

Another issue with traps is it's historical association with fetishization which trans women largely want no part of - once again not all, some actually do, but it plays into a lot of hateful rhetoric we get baggaged with people sexualizing our existence and arguing we're inappropriate for all-ages representation. Think back to a lot of 2000s 4chan culture parading femboy characters as some sorta gotcha to call people gay for being attracted to boys, a lot of that shit's annoying for us. Many of just want to live and be seen as we are and not be the butt of some joke that inherently puts an asterisk on our gender.

Yeah that all seems accurate.

I'd like to add that if there are trans women who call themselves traps, from my experiences, one of two things are going on

1) They're radical, anarchic genderqueers who just don't give a fuck. They exist, they're cool, but they're kinda rare from my experience. (Or they're just genderfluid in general.)

2) They're still 4channers or chan-adjacent, and at best simply haven't had the time or opportunity to grow out of that culture and their terminology and ways of thinking, and at worst have fully embraced a self-loathing, blackpilled trans culture that is sadly all too common in that sphere.

I'd be pretty hesitant to put much stock in the #2's, because they're still letting chan culture dictate the ways it's okay to talk about trans people, and they're... kinda behind the times. Just because 4chan's okay with slurs doesn't mean everyone else is. I think at least some of them will grow out of it.

I think, ideally, the word 'trap' shouldn't need to be broadly identified as a slur when it's being directed towards crossdressing boys (although that doesn't automatically make it okay), but the problem is that it just carries a lot of baggage with it regarding the sort of objectifying and very rigid ways that people think of anyone with feminine features. It's sort of straddling the line of annoying and offensive. Policing all of the ways in which 'boys will be boys' is kind of a waste of time, probably, because people are just gonna be horny and I kinda think there should be a place for being a little off-color when horny, but I think it's best to avoid the usage of the word when possible because whenever it's applied to a trans woman it's just really mean-spirited.

Although honestly if someone says they 'know several trans women who are okay with it' I'm probably going to think they're lying. Unless they visit the lgbt subforum of 4chan, in which case it's probably true in the sense that they see it often but it's totally useless.

lmao literally current page of the dillos topic

Grimlyn posted...

just finding out transphobic femboys exist and it's blowing my mindddddd

yeah 4chan femboys can wind up pretty damn transphobic along with a lot more problematic shit

honestly a many of them are just sad to read as closeted but grown up through a clearly toxic environment... but then they say some hateful shit and it's like yikes

Lotta trans women can honestly relate to femboys and have had their own femboy phases to tiptoe into femme-presenting without having to take all the baggage of committing as trans. Until realizing well this is just how they want to be seen and it truly makes you feel good to be recognized as the opposite gender.

... but this is also where a lot of conflict exists because some people really are just femboys and don't want to transition which is also entirely valid, but hearing that it's a common phase among trans women feels invalidating in turn. The solution that needs to be recognized is that if there wasn't such a massive stigma against being trans then people wouldn't have to be so afraid and go through the denial phase. A lot of trans women wish they could've accepted themselves sooner and project that back onto femboys.

Looks to be offensive if used to a transgender person from what I read.

Grimlyn posted...

yeah 4chan femboys can wind up pretty damn transphobic along with a lot more problematic shit

The 4chan trans women are transphobic too! It's a nightmare

Hey, if nothing else, I can say I didn't leave my sexual identity and presentation up to 4chan. Or gender identity, for that matter. I respect the place's significance and more benign accomplishments, but the prevailing attitude appears to be pretty misanthropic to this day. I'm not surprised it leads to self-hatred.

Okay, to unpack this...
There are some trans women who may refer to themselves as traps but it's not common and usually comes from an older, less modern mindset (and may be fetishism).
It's more likely that crossdressers or femboys may call themselves traps and my friend maybe lumps those groups together though they clearly are not the same thing.
The trans women (so far) in this thread would not self-identify as such and could be seriously offended if someone else did identify them as such.
Due to the complexity of the situation it is not strictly a slur, but nevertheless my friend is probably not being fully honest in saying that he "knows several trans women" that call themselves traps.

Am I getting that right?

The trans women (so far) in this thread would not self-identify as such and could be seriously offended if someone else did identify them as such.

I wouldn't be seriously offended because I kinda flip between trans woman/femboy anyway (is it a phase? I dunno), and if anyone thought I could seriously 'trap' them I'd probably be WAY too flattered to be mad. But the prevailing culture is sort of annoying.

Due to the complexity of the situation it is not strictly a slur, but nevertheless my friend is probably not being fully honest in saying that he "knows several trans women" that call themselves traps.

I should say that I don't know your friend and maybe they do know a bunch of trans women who do this, I just meant to say that in general if someone said that I'd be like 'haha, yeah okay buddy.' But for any given individual saying that, that's up to you to judge, I dunno them.

Way too flattered to be mad... can I go a little off track and ask, and I hope this isn't insulting, is that about "passing?"

Also knowing my friend, and knowing his friend groups, maybe he does know such people, but I do not think these are people he would call friends nor vice versa. I am easily the most progressive person in his friend group and will admit in this matter I still have much to learn. Honestly this whole thing came up because he was angry at someone who was "clearly a woman" introducing herself by saying I'm so and so and my pronouns are she/her in a business meeting.

ChichiriMuyo posted...

probably not being fully honest in saying that he "knows several trans women" that call themselves traps.

I'd imagine it's possible he's being honest. If he knows one close friend circle that has several trans women in it I could see it being a thing they say in that circle even if it's not really a common thing on the whole. That's how stuff like that tends to go.

ChichiriMuyo posted...

Way too flattered to be mad... can I go a little off track and ask, and I hope this isn't insulting, is that about "passing?"

Just an offhanded joke that I don't think I'm pretty enough lol

While reasserting that it's certainly a minority, it's very well possible to find a circle that uses such terminology - like as mentioned about 4chan types. so like if that's the kind of crowd you're meeting trans women yeah that could easily cloud your judgment into thinking it's more acceptable with the broader population of trans women than reality.

ChichiriMuyo posted...

Honestly this whole thing came up because he was angry at someone who was "clearly a woman" introducing herself by saying I'm so and so and my pronouns are she/her in a business meeting.

oof now this is a concerning thing for someone to be triggered by... which makes it more bizarre that they're defensive about slurs but on the flip side complain about people just being nice like uhh huh?

Paratroopa1 posted...

if anyone thought I could seriously 'trap' them I'd probably be WAY too flattered to be mad

lmao thankfully my cis pals just stick to just saying i look amazing/cute which is removes any conflict and i can just gladly take it

even if blatantly just being overly kind because no damn way but hey it's nice

ChichiriMuyo posted...

Due to the complexity of the situation it is not strictly a slur, but nevertheless my friend is probably not being fully honest in saying that he "knows several trans women" that call themselves traps.

He can be 100% honest and it could still be definitely a slur.

I don't think it's a proper use of the term anyway because as I understand it a trap is a male who looks feminine, not one who identifies as female. Many traps in fiction identify as male, and theoretically you could be a trans woman and not look very feminine. I think they're completely different things

That's my two cents on some who is not very informed

Maybe we should just stick with femboy. It's used in the same circles and seems to overlap with the more acceptable meanings. No implication of deception. I don't know how acceptable that one is either, though.

paperwarior posted...

Maybe we should just stick with femboy. It's used in the same circles and seems to overlap with the more acceptable meanings. No implication of deception. I don't know how acceptable that one is either, though.

Generally but not 100% accepted, I think.

MZero posted...

I think they're completely different things

They should be, but a lot of jerks don't see a difference, so that term has been misused a dang lot. I would raise an eyebrow at somebody who identified thusly, but wouldn't pick a fight as long as they didn't try to force that label on anybody else.