Current Events > Race is a social construct (Rings of Power discussion)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't know why that other topic about "races" in Rings of Power was removed. Even if tc was "baiting" it is something we should be able to freely discuss (doesnt break any TOS) and nobody was being bigoted.

I just wanted to repeat that race is a social construct to categorize humans. Yes, different alleles that were endemic to specific regions has caused physical variations but we are all of the same species.

Fictional fantasy books have consistently misused "race" when they mean "species". It was a common misunderstanding back when Tolkien originally wrote LotR and it wasn't like he was a trained biologist to know better.

Hobbits, Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, etc are different species; not races. And there should be no surprise that there would be different variations within those species (that would include dark skin).

Even if race is a social construct that construct has to exist in humans at least for there to be distinct and identifiable ethnic groups after centuries of living together.

I don't have a problem with race blind casting but it seems silly to me that people say it makes total sense within the context of the world. It's like putting a Chinese family in a show set in a village in the middle ages in Scotland and saying "oh yeah that's the black Smith Chang Jia from the clan mchaggus."

All the species in that world are literally created by someone. Seems weird to assume they follow the same kind of evolutionary and environmental adaptations that we as humans do.

AP3Brain posted...

Hobbits, Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, etc are different species; not races. And there should be no surprise that there would be different variations within those species (that would include dark skin).

Not quite true. You can't really use traditional evolutionary biology when looking at Middle Earth since everything was created by gods, but Tolkien never says they are different species, and elves/dwarves/hobbits/humans/orcs have no genetic problems interbreeding with each other. Similar to different breeds of dogs I would say.

As far as character skin colors go, I don't have a problem w/ multi racial elves in the show, you can just say Eru made them that way and they are immortal. There are also darker skinned humans in the lore. I can see the argument for a clan of dwarves all living together under the same mountain for thousands of years, they should all look very similar by now, even if they started off as all different skin colors. In a tv show though my concern w/ the skin color is pretty much 0 when compared to the talent of the actors that are cast. Complaining about a character not having a lore accurate appearance always seemed dumb to me.

From that other topic:
A better question might be that if skin color isn't relevant in the rings of power, why did the writers send the only black elf in the first episode to the only village in the show that isn't ethnically diverse, where the all white morgoth worshipping locals can hurl slurs at him and rumors of him dating a local white girl is enough for the kids to relentlessly bully her son over it, even though in lore the southlands is where the all-black Haradrim would have lived (Harad means "south" in LOTR languages). They took a black people, made them all white, then sent a black elf there to be the victim of racism so that audiences could understand how badly they hate elves.

Fantasy races are often used as allegory to explore racism. This might be the first time I've seen racism used as an allegory to explore the hatred of fantasy races.

Why was the racist topic removed? Huh, I wonder...

Making all the fantasy critters white is just bad writing.

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

Making all the fantasy critters white is just bad writing.

I was going to say that basing an entire world of medieval Europe is bad and lazy writing but I already posted enough in that topic

emblem-man posted...

All the species in that world are literally created by someone. Seems weird to assume they follow the same kind of evolutionary and environmental adaptations that we as humans do.

How long ago were they created? I'm pretty sure it was thousands and thousands of years ago and since most of the species reproduce sexually it would allow for unique traits to be passed down in different regions/groups based off how they adapt to the environment they are in. I assume they weren't identical when they were originally created either. There is nothing saying that it is impossible for certain traits to exist.

AP3Brain posted...

Hobbits, Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, etc are different species; not races.

Pretty sure they can have children with humans so not sure about that.

WingsOfGood posted...

Pretty sure they can have children with humans so not sure about that.

Tigers and lions can breed lol

Race is definitely overused and misused by writers...

Like the concept of "elf" was not a self conception that people lacked or had a different understanding of at a certain times.

WingsOfGood posted...

Pretty sure they can have children with humans so not sure about that.

Different (but closely related) species can have children with each other in the real world. Hybridization is a real thing.

AP3Brain posted...

How long ago were they created? I'm pretty sure it was thousands and thousands of years ago and since most of the species reproduce sexually it would allow for unique traits to be passed down in different regions/groups based off how they adapt to the environment they are in. I assume they weren't identical when they were originally created either. There is nothing saying that it is impossible for certain traits to exist.

Oh I agree. My main point was against people saying other variations shouldn't exist because it doesn't "make sense". I'm saying anything can really make sense

AP3Brain posted...

Different (but closely related) species can have children with each other in the real world. Hybridization is a real thing.

When differentiating species it is widely agreed upon that you look at A: can they reproduce, and B: Are those children genetically viable and also able to reproduce.

When looking at a Liger for example, all males are born sterile, so a lion and tiger are classified as different species.

Orc/Elf/Dwarf/Human hybrids have none of these reproduction issues I don't think.

The particular problem with the suspension of disbelief is that fantasy creatures are usually small-knit homogeneous communities. Whether created or evolved, extraordinary variances in skin color aren't going to inherently make sense to the viewer unless given an explanation of the creator god purposely doing that or the community consisting of creatures from varying regions that diverged over time. So it's less that they "can't" have variances and more that you wouldn't expect them without a much larger, widespread population like humans.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter because it's all down to real world casting choices, but the logic behind some of the arguments about it can get weird.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

When differentiating species it is widely agreed upon that you look at A: can they reproduce, and B: Are those children genetically viable and also able to reproduce.

When looking at a Liger for example, all males are born sterile, so a lion and tiger are classified as different species.

Orc/Elf/Dwarf/Human hybrids have none of these reproduction issues I don't think.

So why is using race a better name for fantasy creatures? It seems like authors want essential differences while still being able to breed them... because

I'm pretty sure Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Ents, etc. are referred to as races in Middle-earth..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Middle-earth)

In J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium, Elves are a fictional race inhabiting Middle-earth in the remote past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)

In the fantasy of J. R. R. Tolkien, the Dwarves are a race inhabiting Middle-earth, the central continent of Arda in an imagined mythological past.

And apparently from Letter 153:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_153

Tolkien said that Elves and Men were, in biological terms, one race since they could produce fertile offspring. Since some held that longevity was a biological characteristic then Elves could not be immortal (not dying of old age), and Men mortal, and yet sufficiently akin. Tolkien said that he could answer all this by declaring ageing only a theory, but his actual answer was that he did not care: The situation was simply a biological dictum in his imaginary world. In literary terms Elves and Men were biologically akin because Elves represented certain aspects of Men.

And really, in a fictional world that contains:

• Talking dragons
• Talking trees
• Dwarves
• Elves
• Orcs
• Wizards
• Hobbits

All of the uproar just because some characters are black is really ridiculous.

s0nicfan posted...

From that other topic:
A better question might be that if skin color isn't relevant in the rings of power, why did the writers send the only black elf in the first episode to the only village in the show that isn't ethnically diverse, where the all white morgoth worshipping locals can hurl slurs at him and rumors of him dating a local white girl is enough for the kids to relentlessly bully her son over it, even though in lore the southlands is where the all-black Haradrim would have lived (Harad means "south" in LOTR languages). They took a black people, made them all white, then sent a black elf there to be the victim of racism so that audiences could understand how badly they hate elves.

Fantasy races are often used as allegory to explore racism. This might be the first time I've seen racism used as an allegory to explore the hatred of fantasy races.

I didn't even note the hostility as a skin color racism thing. I was way more focused on the human/elf racism aspect of it. Similar to the other commentary about elves and non elves that During made, regarding the differences in longevity of time that passes

CableZL posted...

his actual answer was that he did not care: The situation was simply a biological dictum in his imaginary world.

This is the important part. If people want to just do intellectual exercises to win a "No Prize" then cool.

But it's completely ridiculous to seriously argue/be upset that these fictional races don't conform to real life biology/science.

i wonder if in a couple hundred years when white people become a small minority of the population if they'll still demand that elves be white

emblem-man posted...

I didn't even note the hostility as a skin color racism thing. I was way more focused on the human/elf racism aspect of it. Similar to the other commentary about elves and non elves that During made, regarding the differences in longevity of time that passes

That's kind of where I was going, though. It makes perfect sense for morgoth worshipping humans to hate elves. Within that scene the fact that Arondir was black doesn't impact at all the interactions, because that's how it would go. At the same time, if you knew nothing about LOTR and watched that scene, you'd instantly "get" it because of how it was presented. None of the hostility was based on skin color, but the writer and casting director still opted in that first episode to show that every village was ethnically diverse except this one, then send the only black elf there to suffer through all that. Combined with the fact that the southlands people could have been Harad, creating an entire village of black people for casting purposes, makes the whole part of episode 1 feel surreal. The parallels to modern racism were all there: the black guy in the all white town, the casual slurs tossed at him in an unfriendly bar, the nervousness around him dating a young woman, the bullying between kids over it... it is all explained by the fact that he's an elf, yet it was explicitly framed in a way that mirrors modern racism, thus the "reverse allegory" comment.

And the racists have been proven wrong as well, they havent read the books, it just makes them uneasy watching black people on TV

CableZL posted...

Tolkien said that he could answer all this by declaring ageing only a theory, but his actual answer was that he did not care:

J.R.R Tolkien's real name was Based Chadking.

AP3Brain posted...

I don't know why that other topic about "races" in Rings of Power was removed. Even if tc was "baiting" it is something we should be able to freely discuss (doesnt break any TOS) and nobody was being bigoted.

I just wanted to repeat that race is a social construct to categorize humans. Yes, different alleles that were endemic to specific regions has caused physical variations but we are all of the same species.

Fictional fantasy books have consistently misused "race" when they mean "species". It was a common misunderstanding back when Tolkien originally wrote LotR and it wasn't like he was a trained biologist to know better.

Hobbits, Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, etc are different species; not races. And there should be no surprise that there would be different variations within those species (that would include dark skin).

The reason the topic was deleted because anyone with a braincell knows that the TC made the topic in bad faith and was clearly created to start something.

Funny how these same people don't complain about the realism of John Wick, Jason Bourne, or Top Gun.

There's an established lore and of course it wasn't honored.

This is of course just some of the lower hanging fruit. The story and acting are actually atrocious.