Board 8 > Dota 2 Mafia 2 Topic 4 - End of Laning Phase

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changmas
09/09/22 10:41:09 AM
#351:


Obellisk posted...
Got off on a tangent with the mixing items thing.

Now he doesn't have 200g, can't buy a heal for town and if he's just going to buy it the next day anyway when he gets up to over 200 again what really was the point?

He's already highly suspected by a few based on the miller fiasco. Why do something like buy the mayo..

my guess is to prepare himself for this exact scenario, to prove he went to the shop by buying the cheapest item and sending it to someone. Therefore proving at the very least he didnt send in the kill. Although he certainly wouldnt have done that


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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:41:23 AM
#352:


UltimaterializerX posted...
Han. Youre here. Hello.

Do you think your town play is good enough to make you a high priority night 1 target? Im not being snarky here. Because Im in the camp of kill Town Han ASAP when I roll scum.

Lea was killed instead of you. I cant be the only one who finds that weird.

Depends entirely on the person, and if other people have done anything to earn a kill over me.

Lea, in this context, countered in a way that I think everyone said was Town aside from like, Ctes, I think?

Also, I've had heat on me and have done nothing to really prove myself Town. I'd have expected a Lopen night kill over me.

And Ulti, if you are Scum (I'm not leaning that way at all, but if you are) this game, I don't think you try to kill me N1.

(this is all ignoring that we don't truly have confirmation that Scum killed Lea and you saying it says that you totes are Scum confirming it lol)

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Kirby321
09/09/22 10:42:51 AM
#353:


The Divine Rapier has to be a joke item, right? There's no way anyone should be able to get 3333 gold.

Also, Healing Salve seemed useless to me. What actions exist that make someone "lose health" instead of outright dying? It doesn't protect against nightkills, either, I assume, since those would naturally be considered "damage". The salve doesn't even stop against poison.

Isquen posted...
Healing Salve - 200 gold. A flask full of a viscous green syrupy oil. Using this on a target as a day or night action greatly increases their health regeneration, though any incoming damage or poison will dispel the effect.

Quelling Blade is a viable option, sure, but the mayonnaise was a cheap option that wouldn't have drained my gold from testing out what seemed to have been a joke item.

Because you forget... just because I have no use for the Mango and Clarity Potion doesn't mean I can just hoard them and give them to other townsfolk with more useful powers.

... And well, I wanted to keep this as an ace in my sleeve, but I suppose I should just come clean to avoid further suspicion. I bought the mayonnaise, yes, but I also purchased a Mango as well.

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:43:06 AM
#354:


You can ask Poppy, Lopen, Kirby, SBell, any of the people who have looked my way this game - if it is accepted I am Town, then am I a worthwhile kill target N1 this game?

No.

That being said, Docfear is a reason not to shoot me as well, so

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PoppyTheNinja
09/09/22 10:43:30 AM
#355:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
I'm going to assume by the lack of responses that Ulti and Poppy understand what I said and aren't trying to suggest I'm Scum anymore :)

i haven't caught up on everything that was said overnight >_>

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:45:13 AM
#356:


PoppyTheNinja posted...
i haven't caught up on everything that was said overnight >_>

It's mainly pointing out that you were wrong in most of what you said about me.

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changmas
09/09/22 10:45:40 AM
#357:


we might as well ask kirby to reveal (in his own words) what his shard upgrade does if he doesn't think it's useful, as has already spent enough gold that it's unlikely he'll ever purchase it.

also corrik is no longer alive and can't hurt you with questions about minutiae anymore

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MZero
09/09/22 10:46:20 AM
#358:


Hb attempted to pocket Han and thus I am inclined to believe he is town

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Lopen
09/09/22 10:46:52 AM
#359:


I assumed health regeneration meant to protect against night kills, personally. Otherwise what does it actually mean in mafia mechanics

Incoming damage/poison probably refers to certain abilities. Roshan Stun probably stops the salve for example

Kirby you're not really thinking about the mechanics nearly as much as I would have thought you would based on the Kingmaker game.

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Obellisk
09/09/22 10:47:58 AM
#360:


Kirby321 posted...
The Divine Rapier has to be a joke item, right? There's no way anyone should be able to get 3333 gold.

Not the way you spend money.

Kirby321 posted...
... And well, I wanted to keep this as an ace in my sleeve, but I suppose I should just come clean to avoid further suspicion. I bought the mayonnaise, yes, but I also purchased a Mango as well.

forking shirt balls Kirby...you've lost the ability to put aces in sleeves with how you opened the game. You are really going to need to be more forthcoming otherwise you will become a lynch. Scum isn't killing you if you are town, you are too good a mislynch candidate. So at this point you need to be all cards on the table or bye bye scum.

And this is coming from someone who has staunchly defended not lynching you and i trust your claim more than Lea.

Also, did you actually send the mayo to cts?


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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:48:02 AM
#361:


MZero posted...
Hb attempted to pocket Han and thus I am inclined to believe he is town

That doesn't mean anything if Hb is Town, tbf.
Though Sultan did the same.

It worked out for Hb over the course of the day more than for Sultan. I forgot that Sultan was on the Han Defense Force until Death pointed it out in his readthrough.

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:48:37 AM
#362:


Lopen posted...
I assumed health regeneration meant to protect against night kills, personally. Otherwise what does it actually mean in mafia mechanics


It specifically says that the health regen is cancelled by a shot or poison.

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Lopen
09/09/22 10:49:42 AM
#363:


Alright so guys what are the odds Kirby and Death are both scum

Are these two the type that go in this hard together as some sort of gambit especially when Death for the most part had looked passable day 1? Or would going that hard together be played as some sort of wifom play.

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Lopen
09/09/22 10:50:44 AM
#364:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
health regen is cancelled by a shot or poison.

No. It says it is cancelled by "damage" not "a shot"

What does it do if not protect against night kills. Tell me this.

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Obellisk
09/09/22 10:51:00 AM
#365:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
You can ask

HanOfTheNekos posted...
SBell,


Han may still be scum, but when he doesn't fight with me its harder to read.

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:51:22 AM
#366:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
It specifically says that the health regen is cancelled by a shot or poison.
sorry, "incoming damage", not a shot

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:52:16 AM
#367:


Lopen posted...
No. It says it is cancelled by "damage" not "a shot"

What does it do if not protect against night kills. Tell me this.

Yeah I don't know. But I would assume a night kill counts as damage.

That's just the native English speaker in me, but ya know

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PoppyTheNinja
09/09/22 10:52:27 AM
#368:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
Hello - I'll probably dig into day 1 tomorrow to see if anything can really be gleaned from these deaths, but I'll address Poppy and Ulti real quick so you guys don't mislead yourself.

1. I defended Hb, but I did not defend Sultan. I simply said that accusing Sultan of lying was shitty (which Ulti is saying the same thing in relation to people saying Hb was lying about being AFK at day's end, so you understand where I'm coming from).
2. When I did show up at day's end, Sultan and Hb were tied in votes and I said to vote Sultan. Sultan got lynched and flipped RB. Take that as you will. If you think Hb is Scum, then your assumption is me, with my completely unnecessary to make post, said to lynch the RB over whatever Hb is. If Hb flips Town, then your assumption would be that me, with my completely unnecessary to make post, said to lynch Scum over Town.
attacking someone's case is a defense, and if anything it feels scummy to me because you tried to dismiss lopen's reasoning without taking a definitive stance on sultan's alignment

and you made that post about sultan but there was no guarantee anyone would follow you at that point and it's not like you really tried to hammer it home with people the way, say, ulti did

idk, maybe i'm just annoyed you suggesting i was bussing before sultan had even flipped

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:56:28 AM
#369:


PoppyTheNinja posted...
attacking someone's case is a defense, and if anything it feels scummy to me because you tried to dismiss lopen's reasoning without taking a definitive stance on sultan's alignment

and you made that post about sultan but there was no guarantee anyone would follow you at that point and it's not like you really tried to hammer it home with people the way, say, ulti did

idk, maybe i'm just annoyed you suggesting i was bussing before sultan had even flipped

  1. I said I had no reason to think Sultan was Town!
  2. I wasn't attacking his case, I was attacking the idea of saying someone is lying to make a case. iirc I told Lopen to use other wording and whatnot? I didn't have an issue with most of his case, aside from that he was accusing Sultan of lying about stupid stuff.
  3. I wasn't seriously thinking you were bussing, but in the vast game of mafia, I find it is more appropriate for loose thoughts to be given.


Obellisk posted...
Han may still be scum, but when he doesn't fight with me its harder to read.
This doesn't actually answer the question though. It is, if you accept I am Town, do you think I would be a worthwhile kill the previous night, over others.

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PoppyTheNinja
09/09/22 10:57:22 AM
#370:


i still don't really think kirby makes sense as scum based on how sultan talked about him (i can pull quotes if necessary since this has suddenly become relevant), and in general i struggle to see why scum claims in the way he did. the acting n1 is sketchy but we can verify he actually bought stuff from the shop, right? which would imply not taking another night action?

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PoppyTheNinja
09/09/22 10:59:02 AM
#371:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
1. I said I had no reason to think Sultan was Town!
2. I wasn't attacking his case, I was attacking the idea of saying someone is lying to make a case. iirc I told Lopen to use other wording and whatnot? I didn't have an issue with most of his case, aside from that he was accusing Sultan of lying about stupid stuff.
3. I wasn't seriously thinking you were bussing, but in the vast game of mafia, I find it is more appropriate for loose thoughts to be given.

okay *shrugs*

i haven't looked at you and hb yet and HB is a higher priority for me right now based on how he's been posting so i'll probably just table this for now

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htaeD
09/09/22 10:59:20 AM
#372:


Kirby321 posted...


I just double-checked this, too.

The wording says whoever you use the ward on gets their motion detected, but you don't learn who they visited.

Granted, didn't Isquen say some of the item descriptions changed from when we got them in our PMs?

Yes it has a watch too. I was surprised too tbh

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Kirby321
09/09/22 10:59:26 AM
#373:


changmas posted...
we might as well ask kirby to reveal (in his own words) what his shard upgrade does if he doesn't think it's useful, as has already spent enough gold that it's unlikely he'll ever purchase it.

For the record, I didn't know about the upgrade until after I made my purchase. Because I felt that hoarding Mangos would be more immediately useful than gambling on a potentially useless upgrade. Imagine giving a cop two scans in a single night, every night! Especially now that the roleblocker is dead.

Anyway, my upgraded ability gives a 50% chance for the illusion to absorb an action instead of the original target. For example, if I made an illusion of Malphite and told it to visit Teemo, and someone tried to (rightfully) nightkill or poison Teemo, there is a 50% chance that the illusion of Malphite would be killed instead of Teemo. In that scenario, the person attempting to nightkill or poison Teemo would be informed that they hit Malphite's illusion rather than Teemo.

Now, what the PM didn't specifically say was how that ability interacts with other roles. I presume stuff like Cop would be unaffected, but Tracker (or the recently-revealed Item Thief)... I dunno. And given that Isquen never answered my previous set of questions about my role, I didn't bother asking this time >_>

It specifically says the person trying to target Teemo will be aware that they struck an illusion if it was a harmful effect (specifically mentioning poisons and kills). So there's some ambiguity on how it works, but even then, 50% is not reliable.

I don't regret my purchase tbh. If it was 100%, I might have regretted buying those items, but it's only 50% and has potential to mess up other roles (possibly, but I don't know). Not worth it.

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 10:59:30 AM
#374:


This is where I would say "why does a Scum Kirby take the actions at night as Scum?" Where is the Scum equity in that?

I spend too many posts in these games saying "just because behavior seems odd doesn't mean it's Scum. Town is more likely to behave oddly!"

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Kirby321
09/09/22 11:00:26 AM
#375:


Obellisk posted...
Also, did you actually send the mayo to cts?

Yes. He didn't believe I bought the mayo, so I sent it to him.

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Obellisk
09/09/22 11:02:22 AM
#376:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
This doesn't actually answer the question though. It is, if you accept I am Town, do you think I would be a worthwhile kill the previous night, over others.

I think i roleblock you or track/watch/scan you n1
based on day1 THIS game i'd probably not kill you.
I dont think cognitive ability should necessarily come into play in a N1 kill and it should be based on where you think the power lies.
For instance, if Corrik was actually a target and didn't kill himself, that is clearly Corrik Fear.
I think killing Lea is mostly she seemed practically confirmed and it opens up more WIFOM on kirby which could be good or bad depending on kirbys allignment.

I think i've put more thought into this than necessary really, but bottom line, i dont think Han is necessarily a worthwhile N1 kill.


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ctesjbuvf
09/09/22 11:04:14 AM
#377:


I am busy atm so only skimmed the current page.

But want to point out that I have indeed received the mayo.

Doesn't change my stance on Kirby, just means I can't convince anyone this way. The mayo was indeed bought.

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 11:05:36 AM
#378:


Ctes is lying.

I received the mayo.

hahahahaha

(I'm joking)

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Obellisk
09/09/22 11:05:37 AM
#379:


I waffle on you Kirby. But i will admit it may just be my own paranoia and metaing the "whys"

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Lopen
09/09/22 11:07:17 AM
#380:


Lopen posted...
Alright so guys what are the odds Kirby and Death are both scum

Are these two the type that go in this hard together as some sort of gambit especially when Death for the most part had looked passable day 1? Or would going that hard together be played as some sort of wifom play.

I don't want this to get swept under the rug.

Kirby and Death's claimed actions don't make sense. I don't like that Death instantly used his ward. I don't like that Kirby wasted money on mayo.

Further I think it's highly likely that Kirby was visited by Corrik last night and that's why Corrik is dead.

Corrik is actually a pretty intelligent mafia player when it comes to using abilities and planning in the sense of how to best benefit town through using his power. Corrik was using his ability to townclear. If he was just trying to find Roshan he doesn't fire it blind night 1. That's why there's no chance he used it on Ulti. But he wanted to give us a hint as to who he would target if he flipped, because he'd know we'd know if he flipped he targeted scum

So there are two possibilities. 1. He targeted Poppy and leaving the vote there was our hint. 2. He targeted Kirby, and an insane rant about flavor and cult leaders was our hint. I think the amount of time he spent on flavor yesterday was so that people would get the hint there.

However there is a third possibility. The insane rant was because he had correctly identified Kirby as Roshan with his day action. The vote idling on Poppy was because he was going to use his night action to townclear.

I feel today's lynch must be between Kirby and Poppy, personally. And I strongly lean Kirby of the two.

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 11:09:25 AM
#381:


"However there is a third possibility. The insane rant was because he had correctly identified Kirby as Roshan with his day action. The vote idling on Poppy was because he was going to use his night action to townclear."

Lopen, this is literally insane.

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PoppyTheNinja
09/09/22 11:13:47 AM
#382:


if kirby was roshan he'd be dead though

and an ulti/kirby scum team would basically be throwing at deadline when they could have put a majority on hb

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Lopen
09/09/22 11:16:10 AM
#383:


It's Corrik. Nothing is out of the question for him.

Like if you look at the ability he has, it actually benefits him to leave Roshan alive so he gets more loot when he kills him since he gets Roshan's items. If he had identified Roshan right out of the gate he might not be in a rush to kill him and he might want to generate town utility by using his role as a scanning role first.

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htaeD
09/09/22 11:16:26 AM
#384:


I didnt use it instantly actually. I set it about 1 hour before item deadline

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Kirby321
09/09/22 11:16:58 AM
#385:


Lopen's argument only makes sense if Death is lying about using his ward on me and about the whole watcher component to it.

Death said nobody visited me. That has to include Corrik. Death lying only makes sense if he's scumbuddies with me, but I'm town, so therefore Death has to be telling the truth in my eyes.

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Lopen
09/09/22 11:19:04 AM
#386:


Kirby321 posted...
Death lying only makes sense if he's scumbuddies with me, but I'm town, so therefore Death has to be telling the truth in my eyes.

Do you think that? I don't.

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htaeD
09/09/22 11:20:42 AM
#387:




This sounds like naming was hidden but then

So you would have been told the amount but not what players?

No I get told if he was visited or not and if he moved ir not. That binary is all

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Kirby321
09/09/22 11:21:15 AM
#388:


Lopen posted...
Do you think that? I don't.

Then how else do you explain this?

htaeD posted...
Eh I guess waiting to see if anyone can get contradicted would be mean. It was Kirby. He moved.

...and nobody moved to him.

Why would Death lie if Corrik actually visited me? He would have no reason to unless he and I were both scum.

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htaeD
09/09/22 11:22:54 AM
#389:


Kirby's responses here are kinda charming. Makes me like him more.

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Lopen
09/09/22 11:23:05 AM
#390:


Kirby I want you to really read that item description you have

Is there any remote possibility that it allows a watch and that you misread it

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 11:24:09 AM
#391:


Lopen more like loco

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Kirby321
09/09/22 11:27:16 AM
#392:


Lopen posted...
Kirby I want you to really read that item description you have

Is there any remote possibility that it allows a watch and that you misread it

I read it multiple times. It says nothing about people visiting the target, just if the target visits someone else.

So either Death is lying, or Isquen didn't tell me that information.

Let's assume it was the former. Again, why would Death lie if Corrik actually visited me? If he was scum, hiding that info does nothing besides protect me.

If someone visited me, the natural answer would be Corrik, so that would be an instant death sentence for me. But if I'm town, and Corrik actually visited me, he wouldn't be dead right now.

Therefore, the only reason Death would bluff about no one visiting me is because he wanted to protect me, which only makes sense if I'm scum and so is he.

If you think I'm scum because you believe Corrik died visiting, then you have to believe Death is scum, too.

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Lopen
09/09/22 11:29:07 AM
#393:


Kirby town, Death scum

If Death flips first, highly implicates Kirby when Death attempted to clear him with his ward-- in this case it's more likely Corrik targeted Poppy. Or someone else and his hint sucked.
If Kirby flips first, this makes Death look townish for "clearing" Kirby
Death passively gains town points and Kirby pocket points for playing in a "pro-town" way.

So yes, there is utility to claiming he had a motion watch on you even if he didn't.

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Obellisk
09/09/22 11:29:51 AM
#394:


Kirby321 posted...
If you think I'm scum because you believe Corrik died visiting, then you have to believe Death is scum, too.


Devils Advocate. Death could be 3rd party in this scenario too. However I agree with the point that Death can't be Town in that scenario.

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htaeD
09/09/22 11:30:04 AM
#395:


And also I am 100/100 that Kirby wasnt visited

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Obellisk
09/09/22 11:30:16 AM
#396:


I said scenario twice.

it really bothers me.

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Lopen
09/09/22 11:31:50 AM
#397:


I don't think the item would just be written incorrectly.

I think Death or Kirby or both are lying.

I would potentially humor a Death lynch here too.

Ulti how does your ward work exactly could you tell us.

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HanOfTheNekos
09/09/22 11:32:37 AM
#398:


Occulam's Razor confirms that Death doesn't fake a watch on Kirby that he says showed nobody visited him.

Not with this many people unclaimed and with items being a thing in the game.

This line of thought is barmy.

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MZero
09/09/22 11:33:16 AM
#399:


Lopen posted...
So there are two possibilities

Lopen posted...
It's Corrik. Nothing is out of the question for him.


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htaeD
09/09/22 11:33:33 AM
#400:


Why would I lie tho?

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