Current Events > Why doesn't God just forgive Satan?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I guess that would ruin the whole drama...

...every good story has an opposing force.

God did more evil than Satan.

When my wife worked at a Catholic Publishing years ago I used to talk to the theologians at company events about shit like this. Their argument was that God did forgive Satan but Satan doesn't want that forgiveness because he doesn't think he did anything wrong and thus is in a prison of his own making.

god aint shit

That is infact a good question.

First, true forgiveness requires repentance.

Some theorycraft that God could just erase Satan and yet has not. Why? There is ideas that the redemption of man is to instill such repentance as from teaching a lesson.

Job for instance is mocked by atheists as a cruel book calling it God betting with Satan.
Or perhaps it is that Satan was sincere in believing Job would turn against God and God was teaching Satan a lesson.
Unto what purpose?

It's interesting, because in Yazidi theology, God not only forgave the Peacock Angel/Shaytan, but Shaytan accepted his forgiveness and was given dominion over the Earth, since in Yazidism God is simply too great to really interface with us and uses the angels as intermediaries.

I thought it was because Satan was too proud to ask for forgiveness?

WingsOfGood posted...

That is infact a good question.

First, true forgiveness requires repentance.

Some theorycraft that God could just erase Satan and yet has not. Why? There is ideas that the redemption of man is to instill such repentance as from teaching a lesson.

Job for instance is mocked by atheists as a cruel book calling it God betting with Satan.
Or perhaps it is that Satan was sincere in believing Job would turn against God and God was teaching Satan a lesson.
Unto what purpose?

Teaching Satan a lesson by killing off some family like Lego toys. Psychopathic behavior.

Similar, the bible says that the angels did not know the workings of salvation.
The plan of the cross was hid in the mind of God.
Not only a mystery to Satan as was apparently necessary, but to the holy angels as well.

When the gospel was preached, the angels were curious and came to listen to the apostles.

Because the authors at the time didn't really think their lore through.

Doe posted...

Teaching Satan a lesson by killing off some family like Lego toys. Psychopathic behavior.

You are correct. God had told Satan he could do this to job, but ultimately it was Satan who killed Job's family like Lego toys.
Or rather, God just said it is in your hand, God didn't actually say to kill everyone.

Prestoff posted...

Because the authors at the time didn't really think their lore through.

They were Shut the fuck up or God will kill your family and ruin your life!

Foppe posted...

They were Shut the fuck up or God will kill your family and ruin your life!

Do you believe God must protect you from a natural death?

God didn't raise his hand against Job. Satan in a sense would have been a natural disaster, but one with malicious will.

The whole point of the interaction is Satan said "you had been protecting Job for being righteous, so stop!"

So God said, ok, I will stop protecting him. You will not get your way.

And then Satan went ham and killed his whole family to try and prove to God Job would turn against him.

WingsOfGood posted...

Do you believe God must protect you from a natural death?

God didn't raise his hand against Job. Satan in a sense would have been a natural disaster, but one with malicious will.

The whole point of the interaction is Satan said "you had been protecting Job for being righteous, so stop!"

So God said, ok, I will stop protecting him. You will not get your way.

And then Satan went ham and killed his whole family to try and prove to God Job would turn against him.

The whole Old Testament is Shut the fuck up and do what we say God want or else...

Foppe posted...

The whole Old Testament is Shut the fuck up and do what we say God want or else...

Actually it is not.
Certain moments might stick out to people like Achan, but those moments are few and far between. It is kinda hard to consider the chonology as you read through it but most of these stories are hundreds of years apart.

The actual theme is how God gave his law and covenant, but it could not be followed. The people constantly fell short, God sent a prophet or did some miracles to try and fix it but ultimately they turned away.

And this is what makes Christianity interesting. It fits so well with that theme and even addresses it.
Islam suggests it is a piece of the pie too, yet it doesn't fit so tightly like a puzzle piece as the gospels did with the OT.

WingsOfGood posted...

Actually it is not.
Certain moments might stick out to people like Achan, but those moments are few and far between. It is kinda hard to consider the chonology as you read through it but most of these stories are hundreds of years apart.

The actual theme is how God gave his law and covenant, but it could not be followed. The people constantly fell short, God sent a prophet or did some miracles to try and fix it but ultimately they turned away.

And this is what makes Christianity interesting. It fits so well with that theme and even addresses it.
Islam suggests it is a piece of the pie too, yet it doesn't fit so tightly like a puzzle piece as the gospels did with the OT.

Of course it couldn't be followed. He set the rules in direct opposition to nature of the thing he created.

WingsOfGood posted...

Actually it is not.
Certain moments might stick out to people like Achan, but those moments are few and far between. It is kinda hard to consider the chonology as you read through it but most of these stories are hundreds of years apart.

The actual theme is how God gave his law and covenant, but it could not be followed. The people constantly fell short, God sent a prophet or did some miracles to try and fix it but ultimately they turned away.

And this is what makes Christianity interesting. It fits so well with that theme and even addresses it.
Islam suggests it is a piece of the pie too, yet it doesn't fit so tightly like a puzzle piece as the gospels did with the OT.

People dont do as God wants, they get punished hard and after hundreds of years of punishment and regrets, God forgives them until they mess up again 30 years later.

Satan thought that being in the presence of God was slavery!

Foppe posted...

People dont do as God wants, they get punished hard and after hundreds of years of punishment and regrets, God forgives them until they mess up again 30 years later.

To what do you refer to?

The Babylonian captivity?

The irony here is that Babylon enslaved many nations, not just Israel. The punishment of God in this instance was that he would let it happen. Very similar to the Job situation.

Same with the Phillisitines, Canaanites, etc.

So_dreamycreamy posted...

Satan thought that being in the presence of God was slavery!

Is this a tenet of Satanism? Just asking cause not sure were you get it from.

Also the whole Satan fall story is an interesting one because is comes from a certain interpretation by Tertullian of a chapter in Ezekiel.
That the chapter is talking about Satan is not actually clear and it may infact for the most part be hogwash despite many Christians thinking it is somewhere in the bible and clear.

Without this passage it would impossible to say for sure Satan is even an angel, much less the most beautful and all that. Infact, even that passage doesn't imply that. It was kinda made up.

WingsOfGood posted...

To what do you refer to?

The Babylonian captivity?

The irony here is that Babylon enslaved many nations, not just Israel. The punishment of God in this instance was that he would let it happen. Very similar to the Job situation.

Same with the Phillisitines, Canaanites, etc.

God allowed them to grow strong so he could show his greatness when he would tell Israel to defeat them.
Israel fucked up so God told them to invade Israel.

People seem to forget that Paradise Lost isn't the Biblical narrative.

I don't recall Satan asking for forgiveness in the bible.

It's also funny how the media makes Satan out to be some scary monster. He's like God's most beautiful angel or something. Probably looks like a young Tom Cruise

ScazarMeltex posted...

When my wife worked at a Catholic Publishing years ago I used to talk to the theologians at company events about shit like this. Their argument was that God did forgive Satan but Satan doesn't want that forgiveness because he doesn't think he did anything wrong and thus is in a prison of his own making.

Pretty standard stuff coming from Dante at least: everyone in Hell WANTS to be in hell. Full stop. Revelations tells us that after the rapture, humanity petitions God to finally punish Satan, and God complies (I guess destroying Satan a la Dogma or whatever).

religion is dumb.

DarkRoast posted...

People seem to forget that Paradise Lost isn't the Biblical narrative.

no but it is based on Tertullian's interpretation of Ezekiel 28

He assumed this was not just talking about the king of Tyre but Satan because it says you were in Eden, you were on the Holy mountain of God, you were a guardian cherub

The suggestion being the King of Tyre was not, so it is an allegory.

The problem is that Tyre could be metaphorically said to be in Eden historically, the holy mountain of God just means Israel of which Tyre was allied with (they allied with David and Solomon) and the guardian cherub probably alluded to this alliance helped protect Israel

Then the other assertion was that since it said the King of Tyre was a covering cherub, they extrapolate from this the whole best angel, most beautiful blah blah

no where does it actually say or suggest that, but the idea is that a covering cherub was one of the two cherub on the ark of the covenant which means they were closest to God

but what is funnier is that Satan is often thought to be a seraph, not a cherub....

lol

God and the Devil hang out together in the book of Job.

Because Satan is pure evil

Because its fake

Robot2600 posted...

God and the Devil hang out together in the book of Job.

God was planning out what Satan should do in the next season of his show. That was funny to him

Why are "sins" things people enjoy, while being "good" enough to get into heaven requires you to basically torture yourself and others for a lifetime?

WingsOfGood posted...

Is this a tenet of Satanism? Just asking cause not sure were you get it from.

Also the whole Satan fall story is an interesting one because is comes from a certain interpretation by Tertullian of a chapter in Ezekiel.
That the chapter is talking about Satan is not actually clear and it may infact for the most part be hogwash despite many Christians thinking it is somewhere in the bible and clear.

Without this passage it would impossible to say for sure Satan is even an angel, much less the most beautful and all that. Infact, even that passage doesn't imply that. It was kinda made up.

Satan could build whatever he wanted, do whatever he wanted, know whatever he wanted, but he wasn't God. He can't be God. He isn't God. So Satan said, "I'm gonna burn this down!"

God said, "Go ahead and try. Oh, by the way, I'm creating all these new entities that have free will just like I did. Little tiny versions of myself. Go ahead and have at 'em! Let's see if you can even beat my babies!"

And then comes the argument "Is God the greatest sadist that ever existed?" No, God is lonely. God wanted communion with us and so God did this thing.

example

https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2291/is-satan-a-seraph-or-a-cherub

1. Seraphim means burning ones which generally is thought to suggest snake like(this is due to words used referring to the burning snakes that bit Israel), satan of course being a snake
2. Seraphim in the heirarchy of angels is higher than cherubs (who knows who came up with that)

And yet the whole fall story of Satan is taken expressly from a passage talking to a Cherub.

What this suggests is the whole Satan fall story is not biblical nor does it tie into the biblical view of Satan.

Infact, the bible outlines that Satan's sin was:

1. He accused the bretheren (basically what he did to Job)
2. He was a murderer and liar from the beginning (according to Jesus)

ctrl + f not found: He wanted to become God and all that blah blah

LeoRavus posted...

I don't recall Satan asking for forgiveness in the bible.

It's also funny how the media makes Satan out to be some scary monster. He's like God's most beautiful angel or something. Probably looks like a young Tom Cruise

Actually he would probably look like a big red dragon and not a person at all

DarkRoast posted...

People seem to forget that Paradise Lost isn't the Biblical narrative.

They also forget that Dante's Inferno is also total BS, and was just an excuse for Dante to put people he didn't like in Hell while writing self-insert fanfiction to drool over Virgil.

Yet the Catholics and Evangelicals basically made it into official doctrine.

ScazarMeltex posted...

When my wife worked at a Catholic Publishing years ago I used to talk to the theologians at company events about shit like this. Their argument was that God did forgive Satan but Satan doesn't want that forgiveness because he doesn't think he did anything wrong and thus is in a prison of his own making.

I woukd have asked then " how the fuck do you know this?"

Satan was meant to fall.

God made him with the entire purpose being fallen.
God knows when, if ever, he'll be redeemed.
God knows who will be tempted and fall.
God purposely makes people to fall and suffer eternal damnation.

When I was in college, I took a class on John Milton and I wrote my final paper on Lucifer/Satan and the trilogy. My thesis was something like G-ds plan was for Lucifer to be the third member of the Trinity but Lucifer was too jealous of The Son to accept that role. His rebellion was to challenge The Sons (perceived?) more important role in The Fathers eyes. Lucifer was never going to accept a role he considered subservient to The Son, so he chose to reign in Hell rather than serve in Heaven.

His position was filled by the Holy Ghost, which always seemed random to me so I liked Miltons take on the situation. (Or at least my interpretation of Miltons take, which of course was not Miltons original idea but was my exposure to it.)

FunkyCat posted...

Satan was meant to fall.

God made him with the entire purpose being fallen.
God knows when, if ever, he'll be redeemed.
God knows who will be tempted and fall.
God purposely makes people to fall and suffer eternal damnation.

https://youtu.be/ZqaCEPwWGtc?t=7

WingsOfGood posted...

Actually he would probably look like a big red dragon and not a person at all

Why? Did God pull a Medusa on him and make him a monster or did he just send him down to earth?

Zikten posted...

I woukd have asked then " how the fuck do you know this?"

They were career theologians, most were in their 70s and had 3 to 4 decades of experience in the field. They had studied multiple historical versions of the Bible in half a dozen languages. As far as scholars about biblical matters go they knew their shit.

One of them always used to piss off one of the younger priests because he argued that most of the stuff in the new testament was allegorical. Specifically about three magi who followed the star and brought the three gifts to birth of Christ. He argued that it was not literally three dudes following a star. That it was instead an allegory for the peoples who would come to Christianity through the light Christ brought to the world.

That being said, I was at the time and still am, a slightly agnostic atheist. So it was all academic to me, they were cool to talk to and had tons of interesting takes on religious matters that you don't get from your typical American person.

He's not sorry.

If God is real, bad thing shouldn't happen.

But seriously.

ScazarMeltex posted...

They were career theologians, most were in their 70s and had 3 to 4 decades of experience in the field. They had studied multiple historical versions of the Bible in half a dozen languages. As far as scholars about biblical matters go they knew their shit.

One of them always used to piss off one of the younger priests because he argued that most of the stuff in the new testament was allegorical. Specifically about three magi who followed the star and brought the three gifts to birth of Christ. He argued that it was not literally three dudes following a star. That it was instead an allegory for the peoples who would come to Christianity through the light Christ brought to the world.

That being said, I was at the time and still am, a slightly agnostic atheist. So it was all academic to me, they were cool to talk to and had tons of interesting takes on religious matters that you don't get from your typical American person.

That doesn't prove events that happen in the spirit realm. Just that they know what the Bible claims. But that is not scientific evidence.

If God is omniscient and omnipresent, he would have known before creating Satan, that Satan would turn out evil and cause all the problems he supposedly caused / causes. Therefore, ultimately, God is the one who caused said evil to happen, and must be evil himself.

Zikten posted...

That doesn't prove events that happen in the spirit realm. Just that they know what the Bible claims. But that is not scientific evidence.

Of course. You have to remember that everything these people say is couched in the iron clad and concrete belief that the things laid out in their holy book happened. The events laid out in the source material can be questioned insofar as asking about specific interpretation of ideas and events, but that's it. The validity of said source material is never in question to them.

Robot2600 posted...

God and the Devil hang out together in the book of Job.

I always loved this part of the first chapter

One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, Where have you come from?
Satan answered the Lord, From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.

Like apparently Satan is just chilling and can casually walks into heaven for friendly chats with God, lol.

The idea is he would but Satan refuses to seek it

Does Satan and other angels have free will?

I don't know where I read this but there was even some version where Lucifer was jealous of Adam and God told him to bend to Adam and Lucifer refused.