Board 8 > Favourite fully evolved fire starter pokemon?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nobody is saying they didn't HELP his popularity.

We're fighting back against the notion that TPC pushing him is the only thing that made him popular. That's just blatantly untrue. They absolutely latched on to the popularity that was already there and exploited it until they were blue in the face, but this isn't some contrived, artificial thing.

The idea that it wouldn't be even sniffing anything close to top ten without being pushed at all seems pretty silly, but also seems impossible to prove one way or the other. There's more evidence that he would be than not, due to the obvious Gen 1 bias, as well as starters typically doing well to begin with, and Charizard's design is something that's just very appealing in general. I do have to think you're off on that take, atleast, and the fact you were wrong about Eevee doesn't help.

Zigzagoon posted...

And again, I'm not saying this is 100% one way or the other. That's stupid. What I AM arguing is that TPC absolutely does have some influence in what becomes popular and I disagree with people who say they have no effect at all. And it blows my mind that apparently some people believe this!

If anybody actually argued this, then I agree they're wrong. The argument I saw that people were arguing against was that TPC basically dictates what's popular, instead of either running with what's already popular or trying to give a few different things a nudge to see what sticks.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on how big the impact is.

Zigzagoon posted...

without all of TPCs pushing of him that he would even be close to sniffing top 10 anything, even on the internet.

this is where you just come off sounding like a hipster

If you remove Charizard's pushing then you have to remove the pushing that every other Pokemon has received, and in a world where legendaries aren't given movies and Pikachu is just a rare electric Pokemon in Viridian forest, Charizard would absolutely be Top 10, at least among older fans who grew up with him. Like, what is so difficult to understand about a starter fire dragon resonating with young kids?

Zigzagoon posted...

No, what I'm saying is still true and Charizard isn't the blessing from god you all seem to think he is and think that without all of TPCs pushing of him that he would even be close to sniffing top 10 anything, even on the internet.

Mask slipped big time here

KamikazePotato posted...

If you remove Charizard's pushing then you have to remove the pushing that every other Pokemon has received, and in a world where legendaries aren't given movies and Pikachu is just a rare electric Pokemon in Viridian forest, Charizard would absolutely be Top 10, at least among older fans who grew up with him. Like, what is so difficult to understand about a starter fire dragon resonating with young kids?

I think if you swap the Charizard line with, like, Salamence, it probably does not end up top 10. Being a starter (and on the cover of the game, no less) is the biggest push there is.

Really hard to say when we're dealing in counterfactuals like this though.

Kenri posted...

I think if you swap the Charizard line with, like, Salamence, it probably does not end up top 10. Being a starter (and on the cover of the game, no less) is the biggest push there is.

Well yes but at that point you're going so far as to remove a basic, intrinsic quality of the Pokemon. Might as well start altering stats and types as well. I'd almost assuredly like Charizard less if he was switched with Salamence, because part of the reason why Charizard is great is because he was my first Pokemon, and that's true for a lot of people. Doesn't make the love any less legitimate - which is the narrative running underneath this entire argument.

I guess? I don't think being on the boxart is very intrinsic. Being a starter, yeah I'd agree with that one, but a Pokemon fan who doesn't play the games but does watch the anime might not think so. To them "Ash's Charizard" is certainly an intrinsic part of Charizard.

I don't really have a point here, except that like... nobody's favorites exist in a perfectly objective vacuum. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to try to parse out their ""actual"" opinions from their opinions that have been influenced by dozens and dozens of entries in one of the biggest multi-media franchises on the planet, not to mention 25 years of marketing. If people like Charizard because it's been pushed, who cares. As you said, it doesn't make the love less legitimate.

At the same time, after watching the rehabilitation Incineroar went through I'm pretty sympathetic to Ermine's argument here. If TPC/Gamefreak pushed e.g. Luvdisc really really hard they could probably get it to top 30 in popularity too -- but that's like saying, I dunno, if Tien got an all new Dragon Ball series all about him and a bunch of merchandise from it he'd end up more popular too. That's exactly how you'd expect popularity of fictional characters to function, and I'm not sure there's any way to even avoid it if you wanted to.

anyway it's past 3 for me so I'm going to sleep but I can reply more tomorrow if this is still going on then

XIII_rocks posted...

Mask slipped big time here

If everyone else gets to be an asshole, Im not sure why I dont get to be then. Seems only fair.

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought up the Eevee thing, the biggest thing I noticed like I mentioned was a ton of Eevee promotion before there was even a mention of the Let's Go games and it seemed really odd to me and then when they were announced, I was like... Ooooooh, of course, now it makes sense!

I think Incineroar is definitely the biggest culprit though. He was absolutely HATED when his design was first revealed. But due to the pushing of him from TPC and getting him in Smash, there was a complete turnaround.

He's obviously not like Top 10 or Top 20 material or anything like that, but without that push, I'm pretty confident he'd be one of the most hated starter evolutions. But now a ton of people love him because of what he's like in Smash. Hell, it even worked on ME! I fucking hated Incineroar and he's one of my favorites to play in smash because of his moveset. Now he's just like a middle tier Pokemon for me.

Yup the firecat push worked on me too. I was so excited about Litten but when I saw his final evo, I was immensely disappointed and went with Rowlett instead. After smash gave him a fun personality and made him much more appealing, I find him to be pretty alright.

Was Incineroar put in Smash before or after it became one of the two most-used Pokmon in VGC?

Incineroar in Smash did nothing for me, Decidueye too cool (and sprung from the absolute cutie Rowlett)

on the other hand, Charizard in Smash being an annoying spammy dumbass isn't something that affects my view of the mon either

FLARE BLITZ FLARE BLITZ FLARE BLITZ FLARE BLITZ FLARE BLITZ FLARE BLITZ

Not Dave posted...

Was Incineroar put in Smash before or after it became one of the two most-used Pokmon in VGC?

Before

no troll what is vgc

official pokemon tournaments

has its own special ruleset compared to normal competitive battling

Zigzagoon posted...

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought up the Eevee thing, the biggest thing I noticed like I mentioned was a ton of Eevee promotion before there was even a mention of the Let's Go games and it seemed really odd to me and then when they were announced, I was like... Ooooooh, of course, now it makes sense!

I feel like Eevee was always popular in the games but only lately (as in, the time period you're talking about here) has it become a mascot for the whole franchise.

Eevee was set up as Pikachu's counterpart at least since Yellow

Yeah I was gonna say that Eevee is the counterpart in Yellow, but I'd counter that by saying Game Freak didn't have to do a strict Yellow remake when they made LGPE, and may not have done if Eevee wasn't popular.

Not Dave posted...

Was Incineroar put in Smash before or after it became one of the two most-used Pokmon in VGC?

After. Incineroars usage skyrocketed during the 2018 season and he was top 2 by the 2019 season, which started a few months before his Smash reveal.

I imagine the skyrocket was due to Intimidate Incineroar becoming available, since that's what makes it a top tier Pokemon.

IIRC, Psyduck was considered for being the other Let's Go game, but they wanted a Pokmon that wasn't also yellow, then they chose Eevee because of its amount of fanart, clearly suggesting fans put it there.

Also, being #12 in that poll mentioned was more impressive for a big gen like 1 because of the way voting was done. You could vote for one Pokmon per generation, which obviously favors smaller gens.

HashtagSEP posted...

After. Incineroars usage skyrocketed during the 2018 season and he was top 2 by the 2019 season, which started a few months before his Smash reveal.

Smash characters are picked looooong before their reveals.

I thought your point was about the reveal though? Him being picked long before shouldn't matter to popularity if nobody knew right, they needed another Pokemon and he was a good pick to do stand out among Pokemon/other fighters for the whole wrestler thing

No, my point was with who they were wanting to make popular. Incineroar was not popular and people disliked him but they wanted him to be popular so they put him in smash to increase his popularity.

And it worked! Incineroar is decently well liked now.

I don't think he was as universally disliked as you say he was but I obviously don't have hard proof to back that up except my own memory/experiences same as you so that's at a bit of a stalemate, but yes thing being in big game gets more eyes on thing thus increasing chance to have those eyes take a liking

Smash helped, but it's not like Incineroar is insanely popular now or anything. He barely made top 50, which isn't saying much since atleast one form of almost every starter made top 50. Most of the popularity he does have came from Intimidate Incineroar being a beast in the games. Like, yeah, Smash increased him a bit, but he's still not a top liked mon or anything, so I'm not sure what point you're making, here. I find it hard to believe he was that much further down than he is now since people love starters and they always end up high just for being starters.

Top 50 is really freaking high!

Without all of that business for him, he'd be down in the 200s to 400s for sure. I mean, I don't have any proof other than hearing everyone ever talking about how they hated his design and how Litten should have stayed on all fours.

So it's agree to disagree. I will never believe that Incineroar makes top 50 without giving him Intimidate and Smash.

Actually, Nintendo Dream did an Alola poll in early 2018. Incineroar finished 12th. He finished 6th for Alola in the Pokemon of the Year poll in 2020. However, several ones that finished high on the Nintendo Dream poll finished very low on the PotY poll, such as Togedemaru going from 10th to 23rd, and Cosmog going from 9th to 29th. The Nintendo Dream poll also included Alolan forms, a few of which finished better than Incineroar, and they either weren't actually in the PotY poll, or finished below the top 30 for Alola. Thus, when you take things like that into account, Incineroar didn't really see much of a boost at all in placement, and his popularity has been pretty fairly consistently "decent."

To further highlight the "Starter Boost" phenomenon, Torterra, who may be the starter I hear people talk the least about, period, finished within or near the top 50. Serperior, who I've heard almost universally negative talk about, finished near the top 50.

EDIT: Serperior, not Servine, sorry.

The amount of new pokemon introduced in Alola was very small. Wasn't it like 90?

Jumping from 12th to 6th with only 90 pokemon in the mix is a huge jump.

Anyways, there are other people in the topic agreeing with my thoughts, so uh, just maybe there's a bit of merit to them?

ftr here are Sakurai's comments on Incineroar

2018
When planning began around December of 2015, I had resolved that I had to have all kinds of fighters in the game. Generally, though, I cant really add a character from a game that hasnt come out yet to the roster So, I left one character frame open for Pokmon, and after Pokmon: Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon came out I took another look at it. That resulted in Incineroar being chosen. I wanted to try making a pro-wrestler type character at least once! Incineroar is voiced by the late Mr. Unsh Ishizuka of Professor. Oak fame who passed away back in August; he had recorded new lines just for this game. May he rest in peace.

2019
Sakurai: While I was having talks with The Pokmon Company, they had shared with me some of the development details for the upcoming Pokmon Sun & Moon games. Up until the very end it was between Decidueye and Incineroar which one should I choose? I felt like I could do interesting things with either of them, but in the end, I went with Incineroar.

Q: What led you to the deciding between those two?

Sakurai: They were both strong as characters had it been Decidueye, I couldve done a variety of things with projectiles and the like.

Q: There hasnt been a fighter that fights like a pro-wrestler.

Sakurai: Part of what they showed me had an image of a fire vortex coming out of Incineroars belt, but that didnt really go with the pro-wrestling image, so I didnt use it. I thought it would be more fun if the character revolved entirely around the wrestler concept. That being said, pro-wrestling can be completely different depending on the generation, right? I grew up in All Japan Pro-Wrestling and New Japan Pro-Wrestlings heyday, when they were still being broadcast on Golden. As of today, though, it seems like theres a lot of people that dont really know much about pro-wrestling.

Starter Boost is absolutely a thing though, I highlighted it as much in my post a few hours ago.

Zigzagoon posted...

Jumping from 12th to 6th with only 90 pokemon in the mix is a huge jump.

Well, it wasn't necessarily an actual jump, since you've gotta take out three Alolan forms from the first poll since they weren't in the second, which moves Incineroar to 9th. They also counted the Lycanroc forms differently, which the latter did not. And then the rest of his move up appears to be accounted for by things like Togedemaru and Cosmog falling off the face of the earth, not Incineroar actually increasing much.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77160287

Some interesting tidbits to add from here.

Man, imagine if they actually pushed Lycanroc just a LITTLE bit. He's already super popular and all he's gotten was some anime time. Not a starter, not a legendary, just doing his best.

Lycanroc in Smash, give him a TCG rare card every set, a movie, make him viable in VGC

Lycanroc being on the top would be wonderful!

I think the take away from this is that things like random talk on gamefaqs.com should probably be taken with a grain of salt. I'd only ever heard hate for Serperior, here, and yet it finished very well, for instance. Likewise, people can say all they heard was hate for Incineroar and love for Decidueye, but prior to the PotY poll, Incineroar was beating Decidueye in other polls.

Zigzagoon posted...

Man, imagine if they actually pushed Lycanroc just a LITTLE bit. He's already super popular and all he's gotten was some anime time. Not a starter, not a legendary, just doing his best.

Lycanroc in Smash, give him a TCG rare card every set, a movie, make him viable in VGC

Lycanroc being on the top would be wonderful!

Okay we can agree on this.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/9/2/AAN7AaAADHx0.png

It actually astounds me how little they've given Lycanroc. When I started getting back into buying TCG cards of my favorites I was shocked at how little he's gotten in that regard.

It further more illustrates my desire for a dog starter. People love dogs, just give us a badass fire dog or something. It'll sell millions.

Fuck Lucario

Waluigi1 posted...

Ermine has stated my thoughts on it pretty much exactly. TPC controls which Pokmon become the super mega popular ones.

Team Rocket Elite posted...

Incineroar is an example of how there are limits to what TPC can do. Incineroar got the big push but Decidueye is more popular anyways (and Mimikyu wrecks both of them).

I don't think TPC controls with Pokemon become super popular. Since they see Pokemon as a merchandising machine for them, where they have a set schedule over the course of a generation to release products promoting certain Pokemon. At least when it comes to the early part of a new generation, the first few months of a new generation should focus on releasing merchandise for the extremely safe bets such as the starters and then seeing how people react to the new Pokemon. Then adapt your merchandising schedule based on how people feel about the new Pokemon. It might not change their set schedule, but it could at least get them to dial back how much they choose to promote certain Pokemon from the generation during the later generations.

TPC tries to make an educated prediction on which Pokemon would be popular among the fans, but they are sometimes way off the mark like with Zoroark and Incineroar.