Poll of the Day > What would you say are the hardest RPGs (Pre-PS1 Era)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'll allow up to Diablo 1 Hellfire for PC since I think that's about the right timeframe but not sure.

---

7th Saga
Final Fantasy 1
maybe Ogre Battle (SNES) if that counts

for PC... I didn't play very many PC RPGs back then. one of the hardest ones I know of would be Might and Magic 6.


---

Hecking Zelda 2

---

Mead posted...

Hecking Zelda 2

Yep, that's what I came to add, although given the gameplay it's actually kind of hard to separate from the Castlevania/Metroid-style action games: it's like Metroid segments separated by a crude world map.

Also Dragon Quest 2 near the end. And Final Fantasy 3 near the end.

---

Can agree with most of these, although Ogre Battle's difficulty comes down to what ending you want

i don't think I finished DQ2 (gameboy version), and FF3 has one of the HARDEST final dungeons of all time, so I'm glad the Pixel Remaster adds in auto and quick-saves, but they JACKED UP the difficulty of the final bosses even further for teh lulz

---

Loved Seventh Saga, was hard at first but after playing through a few times it was always easy afterwards. So fun though. Still would enjoy playing it today.

FF1 isn't really hard, unless your doing a 4 WM run or something. Love that game as well, FF6 is still my favorite though.

It's kinda hard to think of a difficult RPG from back then to be honest. I loved Zelda 2 (didn't age that well though) and unlike many didn't have a hard time finishing it. RPGs were pretty much always fairly easy for me, especially turn base etc, because of how I play (I always try and get all the items/secrets along the way/explore a ton etc, which often over levels me etc.

---

Final Fantasy was pretty tough. If I remember correctly you could only save at an Inn or if you had a single-use tent, cabin, or house.

---

I never found Final Fantasy hard. Must be a generational thing.

The hardest ones I can think of are any of the Ultima or Wizardry games.

captpackrat posted...

Final Fantasy was pretty tough. If I remember correctly you could only save at an Inn or if you had a single-use tent, cabin, or house.

Some combos were just freaking overpowered in FF1, and they were pretty common sense combos as well, so fairly likely to be played the first time. It was WAY to long ago for me to remember the exact party composition on my first run, but I know it included a black belt who I eventually leveled way over the others so he was insanely strong lol. Think it was something like a warrior/Black Belt/Black mage/White mage the first time and it just destroyed everything. The no save thing was normal back then as well, and the only reason FF1 might be hard is because people were not used to such games so probably didn't farm monsters before moving on etc.

I did, so it was never hard heh.

---

On the PC side, Ultimas 2, 3, 5, and 6 are pretty difficult (1 and 4 less so since those are more forgiving). Also Ultima Underworld. Actually, I would say most PC RPGs before 95 are difficult, they did not hold your hand whatsoever.

I agree with pretty much all of the console ones listed, except maybe Zelda 2. It is mostly trial and error, and only the final boss is really difficult (that is, if you don't use the cheap way of killing him).

---

wolfy42 posted...

Loved Seventh Saga, was hard at first but after playing through a few times it was always easy afterwards. So fun though. Still would enjoy playing it today.

Yeah, it's always the go-to memetic "crazy hard" RPG, but once you know what you're doing it really isn't. Balance your team, avoid other apprentices, use your runes properly, and be willing to grind and you're 90% of the way there.
---

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Yeah, it's always the go-to memetic "crazy hard" RPG, but once you know what you're doing it really isn't. Balance your team, avoid other apprentices, use your runes properly, and be willing to grind and you're 90% of the way there.

The problem with the Western release is a bug that gave rival apprentices automatic max growth rates. Meaning grinding can actually make them unbeatable.

---

I never understood the hate for Zelda II or SMB II.

Zelda II is a fantastic game, and isn't that hard. I beat it when I was about 10 or 11, and I was never very good at video games. I played it a couple of years ago and thought it was still fine.

SMB II is the best of all the NES mario games, IMO, although I understand why people like SMB3 better.

wolfy42 posted...

warrior/Black Belt/Black mage/White mage

That's the default party, so that was probably it.

captpackrat posted...

Final Fantasy was pretty tough. If I remember correctly you could only save at an Inn or if you had a single-use tent, cabin, or house.

Compared to most other RPGs since, yes, it was difficult in different ways than you'd see now. You would die because you would run out of items or castings of magic (no MP). You would die because all of your characters would get paralyzed at once and you'd get mobbed to death. You would die because you found yourself unable to run from a random encounter. Etc etc.

You could, as mentioned, overpower yourself and walk through. But if you didn't spend time leveling up old games were pretty unforgiving.

Dikitain posted...

Zelda 2. It is mostly trial and error, and only the final boss is really difficult (that is, if you don't use the cheap way of killing him).

Again, it was difficult for people mostly because it had action-game-like sidescrolling dungeons. For those who only played turn-based RPGs or the slow-moving battle in Zelda 1 that was a challenge. Also, there were several things that were hard to find if you weren't following Nintendo Power/etc as you played.

---

Nichtcrawler X posted...

The problem with the Western release is a bug that gave rival apprentices automatic max growth rates. Meaning grinding can actually make them unbeatable.

That's why I said avoid other apprentices and know what you're doing.

You only have to fight another apprentice once (to get the Sky Rune). Do that early, and then avoid the rest of them from then on, and you don't really have to worry about unwinnable fights.
---

Hmm... there was a game, Castle of the Winds, that I remember being very hard, but I haven't played it in literal decades (so I was a child at the time) so I'm not sure if that is an accurate assessment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyxFARKeYlY Oh, here it is. :3

The Ultima games could be very difficult, especially if you go into them blind. Gotta love booting up a game you bought used for the first time, accidentally walking into the water because you're used to rpgs of that era not letting you do that, and your characters drowning themselves one by one as they follow the lead character to their watery end like a teeny, tiny cult... restarting the game, not realizing there's a hunger mechanic, and having your whole party starve to death in the same rapid manner, lol.

Lord of the Rings, Vol 1 can be very difficult, but not for any good reason, lol. That game is a big mess.

I've heard Wizardry IV is obscenely difficult, but I've never played it personally. Edit: Omfg, you start with 1 HP, wtf, wtf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQz_i6chNgY

wpot posted...

Again, it was difficult for people mostly because it had action-game-like sidescrolling dungeons. For those who only played turn-based RPGs or the slow-moving battle in Zelda 1 that was a challenge. Also, there were several things that were hard to find if you weren't following Nintendo Power/etc as you played.

I honestly think the first game is harder than the second.

---

11110111011 posted...

I never found Final Fantasy hard. Must be a generational thing.

The hardest ones I can think of are any of the Ultima or Wizardry games.

Ultimas aren't too bad. They are mostly about exploration than combat difficulty. Probably closer to an adventure game than a RPG

Wizardrys are middle the road in terms of difficulty, especially 6-8, since you can save and rest anywhere. 1 is pretty straight forward outside the psuedo permadeath, but there is a glitch you can use to avoid it. That game relies on the permadeath to make it difficult, otherwise it is just grindy.

---

Gaawa_chan posted...

I honestly think the first game is harder than the second.

Agreed, Zelda 2 gives you plenty of chances to restore health, the "secrets" in the game are way easier to find then in Zelda 1, and you can pretty much grind your way to beating most of the game.

Plus the second quest in Zelda 1 is insane, there are even parts in the game where you have to sacrifice a heart container to move on if you don't have enough money.

---

The secrets in Zelda 1 are borderline impossible to find without a guide or cheating so you have unlimited bombs. There is no reasoning when it comes to secrets in that game

Zelda 2 is overrated in terms of difficulty because of the AVGN video. Death mountain only requires basic mapping to get through and none of the enemies are too tough once you learn thier patterns. AVGN is entertaining, but he is not necessary giving you an accurate representation of game difficulty

---

The 1st two Phantasy Star Games were Tough (esp with those '3D' Dungeons in the 1st one)

Gaawa_chan posted...

've heard Wizardry IV is obscenely difficult,

I was going to say the first Wizardry actually. Weirdna (sucks) revenge isn't really that hard, people make it out to be harder than it is, you don't actually start with 1 hp, and you also don't start alone (you summon monsters to be in your party and tank for you).

More importantly, presumably, you have played the first 3 games already and know what the spells do (which you actually start with (tho at first just level 1 spells). In the first wizardry that is not the case, you don't get a manual (or didn't on the apple II c version I played) and you literallly have to figure out what the spells do by trial and error. It was difficult because it was unknown, there were no games even close to like it released previously, no instruction manual, and no internet for aloooooong time to come so you needed to figure out everything as you went.

I played it on release back around 1980 or so (think I was 11? There had been nothing like it, it was my first true RPG, and it seriously rocked. The second one and third were both VERY similar to the first (just more of the same, they didn't really expand on it much) and therefore, you kinda knew everything already (don't remember if Identify 9 was in the second and third though, which made the first much easier if you knew about it (even without internet word got around about things like that lol).

Anyway I still remember the AWE I had for that game when I played it. Other games were more complicated and did more (Bards tales, eventually might and magics etc) but Wizardry was pretty much the first and the most mysterious, I freaking loved that game.

---

pionear posted...

The 1st two Phantasy Star Games were Tough (esp with those '3D' Dungeons in the 1st one)

PS 1 was pretty easy and VERY simple, with hp bars that actually went down and a very basic combat system. PS 2 was (in my opinon) one of if not the best PS game (other than Online which was totally different) and I STILL replayed it even about 10 years ago (loved that game). You could not actually target your enemies though (randomly attacked them) and it was semi-difficult for an RPG (but so fun).

Play it today (or even 10 years ago) and it seems so simple compared to modern day rpgs (Even turn based ones) but back when it was released it was pretty much one of the first sci-fi RPGs and a freaking blast to play. Believe it was on the sega system (1 was on the original system and II and the others on the master I think).

Wouldn't mind replaying it again but my backlog of modern games is so long that replaying old ones is probably not gonna happen much anymore sadly.

God people are bringing up such awesome games in this thread.

---

Sahuagin posted...

7th Saga

I came here to say this. Super difficult, I only managed to win it once with the blue knight guy.

There are mechanics involved in the game where leveling up actually starts putting you at a big disadvantage, as your main competition (your rivals / the other character choices at the start) and I think bosses are always a higher level than you are. So they'll gain skills and spells that are really strong while you don't as quickly.

Dikitain posted...

On the PC side, Ultimas 2, 3, 5, and 6 are pretty difficult

Ultima 6 on the SNES was pretty hard too. It's a really good port if you haven't played it.

EDIT: I saw someone mention the Might & Magics. Part 2 I found to be crazy tough to figure out where to go. That game is just huge.

---

Black_Crusher posted...

I came here to say this. Super difficult, I only managed to win it once with the blue knight guy.

There are mechanics involved in the game where leveling up actually starts putting you at a big disadvantage, as your main competition (your rivals / the other character choices at the start) and I think bosses are always a higher level than you are. So they'll gain skills and spells that are really strong while you don't as quickly.

Ultima 6 on the SNES was pretty hard too. It's a really good port if you haven't played it.

EDIT: I saw someone mention the Might & Magics. Part 2 I found to be crazy tough to figure out where to go. That game is just huge.

Think that was me, loved those games. I can't remember how hard they were the first time cause I played em over again so many times over the years, so obviously they were not difficult. Clouds of Xeen was much more difficult by itself as well before it became World of Xeen.


---

wolfy42 posted...

I was going to say the first Wizardry actually. Weirdna (sucks) revenge isn't really that hard, people make it out to be harder than it is, you don't actually start with 1 hp, and you also don't start alone (you summon monsters to be in your party and tank for you).

More importantly, presumably, you have played the first 3 games already and know what the spells do (which you actually start with (tho at first just level 1 spells). In the first wizardry that is not the case, you don't get a manual (or didn't on the apple II c version I played) and you literallly have to figure out what the spells do by trial and error. It was difficult because it was unknown, there were no games even close to like it released previously, no instruction manual, and no internet for aloooooong time to come so you needed to figure out everything as you went.

I played the Wizardry version from the archives and it had a manual for 1. Pretty memorable manual too, as it had the artist that did the first ad&d book, so it had all the cute cartoons. The spell's were pretty much the games copy protection, since you had to type them in to cast them and they had off beat names, so you couldn't guess them

---

7th Saga and FF1 I mention due to how many times I've played them yet never making it very far.

7th Saga always became impossible and I had no idea how to continue.

FF1, I once made it as far as the fire/volcano place but it was so "attricious" that I couldn't survive and probably had to grind a bunch but gave up instead.

Zelda 2 I've beaten at least once, and made it to the end many times. it's not really that hard (IIRC) except for a few frustrating parts (like the last boss).

Gaawa_chan posted...

Lord of the Rings, Vol 1

that I have played and beat. like you say, the only thing that makes it "hard" are the repeating map sections making it very hard to keep track of where you are in a cave. making your own map on paper can help a lot.

wolfy42 posted...

Clouds of Xeen was much more difficult by itself as well before it became World of Xeen.

except for M&M6 I would call all of 3-9 "easy" (quotes important). they're actually almost not even really RPGs; they're more like RPG parodies (which is one reason why I love them).

M&M6 though, while still being parody-like, is pretty brutal in a lot of places and you don't really reach god status as fast as the others.

at some point I really should play the Ultima and Wizardry games

---

wolfy42 posted...

PS 1 was pretty easy and VERY simple, with hp bars that actually went down and a very basic combat system. PS 2 was (in my opinon) one of if not the best PS game (other than Online which was totally different) and I STILL replayed it even about 10 years ago (loved that game). You could not actually target your enemies though (randomly attacked them) and it was semi-difficult for an RPG (but so fun).

Totally disagree with you on that...maybe because I was only like 8-9 when I first played it, and even then, you need either a good Memory or a Map to help you Navigate all the Traps/Dead Ends in some of the More Elaborate Dungeons...

But I agree with you on PS2...the 1st RPG I brought, and probably one of my Favorite RPGs ever (and yea, I had to use that Yellow Tip/Walkthrough Book to get thru it!) and even with that it was tough! And IIRC, I thought you could pick which enemies to Attack? Been so long since I played it...

DragonClaw01 posted...

I played the Wizardry version from the archives and it had a manual for 1. Pretty memorable manual too, as it had the artist that did the first ad&d book, so it had all the cute cartoons. The spell's were pretty much the games copy protection, since you had to type them in to cast them and they had off beat names, so you couldn't guess them

Woah cool, the Apple II version (at least that I played) didn't have a manual but that may be due to where I bought it (cow palace in bay area used to sell floppies with games, but no manual came with them. I did get the names of the spells (I think when you leveled up you got one of the spells and it said the name, but not what it did) but maybe I just got a list of them from somewhere and just cast them to find out what they did). Anyway I looked up the manual just now and other than the spells and what they did (sure would have been nice to know!) it didn't really say anything that would have made the game easier. It was actually pretty awesome playing without a manual and figuring it all out back then.

pionear posted...

And IIRC, I thought you could pick which enemies to Attack? Been so long since I played it...

Nah, not in 2, later in the series you could, in 2 the boomerang attacks that would hit whole groups etc were great because otherwise your attacks might hit different enemies instead of focusing on one. It has been awhile, but I remember the not being able to choose a target being a real pain in the neck when I went back to play it (so not used to that anymore lol).

Still love that game but gave away my system with it on it years ago..I think it is available free online though, I may replay it sometime just for kicks and giggles hehe. I still remember the travel music lol.

---

I think Wizardry 5 might be my overall favorite. It has all the mechanics of the first one but looks a lot better. Plus it doesn't have an elevator that pretty much everybody used to skip half the dungeon (you all did this right, guys? ..Guys?)

---

Black_Crusher posted...

Ultima 6 on the SNES was pretty hard too. It's a really good port if you haven't played it.

It is, although I admit that it is almost "too good", as in they really should have made the interface more console friendly. That is why I like playing the PC version more.

I think as far as console ports, 3 and 4 on the NES were really good. I pretty much always prefer them over their PC counterparts.

---

Dikitain posted...

It is, although I admit that it is almost "too good", as in they really should have made the interface more console friendly. That is why I like playing the PC version more.

I think as far as console ports, 3 and 4 on the NES were really good. I pretty much always prefer them over their PC counterparts.

Yeah I actually wrote (crappy) reviews for both NES games here like 15 years ago. Quest of the Avatar is really good, I like that one a whole lot. Not understanding how the starter questions worked, I ended up being a Druid the first time through.

---

Ya, I really like Quest of the Avatar - I still play it occasionally

---

I still say Zelda 2 fuck that game

---

4 WHM isn't actually THAT hard. Don't get me wrong, it's a really bad idea to do, but you've got so much healing power that you'll be able to win most fights even if they take forever.

All monks or thieves is probably the hardest. No healing or tank capabilities and lacking the magical abilities of a BLM or RDM.

All RDM is probably the easiest.

Mead posted...

I still say Zelda 2 fuck that game

Anyone who says Zelda 2 has to by proxy put Battle of Olympus as harder because it's even more

---

Does it count as an RPG though? I mean, the games have been mostly action/exploration than... RPG-ness...

Unbridled9 posted...

Does it count as an RPG though? I mean, the games have been mostly action/exploration than... RPG-ness...

Because RPGs aren't hard. The genre is based on being able to make your characters stronger than enemies so if you ever lose you can just make yourself stronger until that's impossible.

I don't think I've played Zelda 2 I remember playing the first one though... typically those games are adventure games, not rpgs aren't they?

I liked playing FF1 as a kid but rarely made it very far.

The Pixel Perfect remaster is definitely easier. I'm sure any of the remakes are easier if they also implement switching to targeting another enemy in battle if you killed that enemy with a previous attack. I think the lack of that mechanic in the original makes it a much harder game, as in, your character will attack and always miss if you target an enemy that another character takes out that turn. Definitely an oldschool mechanic that's present in quite a few old RPGs.

I'm sure other people find FF1 easy though, considering how certain players are definitely more patient with the standards of the time.

I haven't played Mother 1, not sure if people consider that hard? Seem to recall reviews saying it was near the end (well, duh lol).

---

Unbridled9 posted...

4 WHM isn't actually THAT hard. Don't get me wrong, it's a really bad idea to do, but you've got so much healing power that you'll be able to win most fights even if they take forever.

All monks or thieves is probably the hardest. No healing or tank capabilities and lacking the magical abilities of a BLM or RDM.

All RDM is probably the easiest.

It's been awhile but I did do 4 of each class, and I think 4 WHM took the longest (wasn't exactly hard, just slow).

4 Monks was actually easier then fighters/thieves though, I forget if RDM or BLM was the easiest but it was one of them.

Love that game so much, I may have finished it with every possible character combination over the years lol.

---

BlackScythe0 posted...

I don't think I've played Zelda 2 I remember playing the first one though... typically those games are adventure games, not rpgs aren't they?

Zelda 2 has more RPG elements. you gain XP and when levelling up can choose to increase either attack power, health, or mana. (is it an RPG though, who knows).

SomeUsername529 posted...

Because RPGs aren't hard. The genre is based on being able to make your characters stronger than enemies so if you ever lose you can just make yourself stronger until that's impossible.

there's a lot I could say but it will all boil down to either true, or it depends

---

It has enough nerd shit to qualify for that era imo

---

wolfy42 posted...

It's been awhile but I did do 4 of each class, and I think 4 WHM took the longest (wasn't exactly hard, just slow).

4 Monks was actually easier then fighters/thieves though, I forget if RDM or BLM was the easiest but it was one of them.

Love that game so much, I may have finished it with every possible character combination over the years lol.

Probably RDM due to their flexibility.

Sahuagin posted...

7th Saga
Final Fantasy 1
maybe Ogre Battle (SNES) if that counts

I'll agree with 7th Saga, I really don't know what the hell the devs were thinking when they ported the game over with those changes, but man I loved to play that game.

Ogre Battle was only difficult at the beginning when you didn't know jack about all the mechanics the game has, but once you understood about the units (which are good, which are bad, how to obtain advanced ones, how to recruit special ones), how to raise or lower alignment, rep, where hidden items and towns are, etc. the game became very, very, very easy, very quickly. I had a tendency to have 12 units, 8 of good alignment, 3 of bad alignment, 1 flyer with medium alignment for

I dare say my favorite in the series was Ogre Battle 64, Person of lordly caliber.

---

The_tall_midget posted...

the game became very, very, very easy, very quickly.

it's easy to steamroll the game, but the game is setup so that steamrolling makes you evil. and the mechanics are not well explained, only hinted at; and you have to stumble upon all of the secrets. but yes once you know what you're doing you can steamroll while minimizing penalties and then it is fairly straightforward. (haven't played it in decades so my opinion could definitely change if I tried it again; also the internet would make a huge difference.)

---