Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 377: Nonconsent of the Governed

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm personally happy he was voted out of office in the first place. I basically attribute Trump getting more votes in 2020 to him doing a better job spreading the word than Biden. Biden campaigned like he was depending on Trump's weakness to win which isn't something you should do. The fact it was enough says words about how bad a candidate Trump truly is.

Trump got embarrassed just as badly this election as Hillary Clinton did in 2016.

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Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016 because there were more humans (and therefore more voters) in 2020 than there were in 2016. I don't see why this should be surprising to anyone.

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It was more a higher turnout than an increase in population. At least in the short term. Long term there are third party candidates that get more total votes than Washington.
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I think he was being sarcastic.

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Yeah turnout was extremely high in 2020, though I think its unclear whether that was primarily due to the now clearly high stakes of having Trump on the ballot or to covid.

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016 because there were more humans (and therefore more voters) in 2020 than there were in 2016. I don't see why this should be surprising to anyone.

2012... Obama 65.9 million Romney 61 million
2008.... Obama 69.5 million McCain 60 Million.

Population increase doesn't ensure more votes.

And, I am not sure he was being sarcastic... so just in case.

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I think Trump has hurt his cause a great deal after the election by being such a sore loser. His whole persona was that of a winner. Now, that persona has been revealed as smoke and mirrors.

He has also been unable to identify anything substantive he would be doing differently from Biden. In 2016, there was a lot of substantive policy where he was in disagreement with Hillary Clinton and with most politicians, and that won him a lot of votes. But now, he can't seem to articulate a single reason why the infrastructure bill, say, is bad.

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I still don't understand why people put so much emphasis on raw number of votes. FPTP has a lot of problems, but having just a straight up "this person has more votes overall" is a terrible terrible way to run a country, let alone one as huge and diverse as the US.

Heroic_TuRtLe posted...

I still don't understand why people put so much emphasis on raw number of votes. FPTP has a lot of problems, but having just a straight up "this person has more votes overall" is a terrible terrible way to run a country, let alone one as huge and diverse as the US.

Because our current system has all the same problems, except it's minority rule instead of majority rule.

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Trump won't be the guy but will doom the guy's chances because the concept of being a team player and supporting someone else is completely alien to him.

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red sox 777 posted...

I think Trump has hurt his cause a great deal after the election by being such a sore loser.

agree with this. when trump was president, i think he at least tried to come across as someone who could appreciate a fair fight. i can't remember the specifics but i remember him congratulating a democrat politician on twitter for beating a republican at something, adding that "a win is a win."

not accepting your loss, crying about "cheating" and generally acting like a giant baby is the least "alpha" thing you can do after an L. many of his supporters are evidently also incredibly sore losers but i'm sure his behavior made at least some supporters abandon him. ulti did, for instance!

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Huh, just saw a poll come out though showing Trump would win a rematch held today. Did not expect that. Well, I'm probably a bit out of touch given the lack of in-person interaction over the last year and a half.

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probably afghanistan backlash.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

agree with this. when trump was president, i think he at least tried to come across as someone who could appreciate a fair fight. i can't remember the specifics but i remember him congratulating a democrat politician on twitter for beating a republican at something, adding that "a win is a win."

not accepting your loss, crying about "cheating" and generally acting like a giant baby is the least "alpha" thing you can do after an L. many of his supporters are evidently also incredibly sore losers but i'm sure his behavior made at least some supporters abandon him. ulti did, for instance!

In fairness Trump cried fraud when he lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton too.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

probably afghanistan backlash.

So I want to say, this is among the better outcomes that could have been expected. Very little combat and very little death. Once Trump agreed to withdraw and Biden confirmed his decision, the Taliban winning was inevitable. It happened faster than expected but also with significantly less death than could have been reasonably expected.

In any case, no one who supported the withdrawal before (and it was overwhelmingly popular in the US) should be blaming Biden for it now. At least not unless they can point out something different they would done.

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The poll could also be BS.

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red sox 777 posted...

So I want to say, this is among the better outcomes that could have been expected. Very little combat and very little death. Once Trump agreed to withdraw and Biden confirmed his decision, the Taliban winning was inevitable. It happened faster than expected but also with significantly less death than could have been reasonably expected.

In any case, no one who supported the withdrawal before (and it was overwhelmingly popular in the US) should be blaming Biden for it now. At least not unless they can point out something different they would done.

That's the overarching thread to all of this renewed discussion on Afghanistan. I have yet to see a single person explain how this situation could have been reasonably handled better, besides the obvious "We never should have been there to begin with"

Or should have gone there instead of Iraq.

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I would make the argument that while the justification was way worse, the results of Iraq are much much better than Afghanistan

Partially because more effort was put into Iraq in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong though.

I blame Bush. For EVERYTHING. Why did that guy serve two terms?

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Why did that guy serve two terms?

because kerry was a flip-flopper

changing your mind about an issue is obviously a cardinal sin

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red sox 777 posted...

Huh, just saw a poll come out though showing Trump would win a rematch held today. Did not expect that. Well, I'm probably a bit out of touch given the lack of in-person interaction over the last year and a half.

Trump fervor and anti Biden rhetoric on social media is in a frenzy.

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https://twitter.com/nikkihaley/status/1428080638658289668?s=21

Who wants to tell her?

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/nikkihaley/status/1428080638658289668?s=21

Who wants to tell her?

Oh she knows:

https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1428127923563896834?s=21

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I don't think those are at odds. I think the key word there is "depending". The tweet after just solidifies that she would know that negotiating with the Taliban is like dealing with the devil because she has been there and experienced it.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

because kerry was a flip-flopper

changing your mind about an issue is obviously a cardinal sin

It wasn't flip flopping that did Kerry in. It was "Swift Boat" and his lack of charisma. Flip Flopping was just the cherry on top of everything. "I voted for it, before I voted against it." You can't say stuff like that and get by with it unless you have a cult of personality like Donald Trump does. And John Kerry is about the furthest from that as you can get.

Yeah, people don't remember that George W was extremely personable..my extremely liberal aunt said she hated him as president but would have loved him as a neighbor.

John Kerry was just not a good foil to him.

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completely disregarding his politics, i never got why people found bush so super likable tbqh. i'd personally rather have a beer with kerry.

at least with the trump/hillary election, i could say "well these are definitely two of the least likable presidential candidates in the history of the united states so i can almost sort of see why trump won."

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

completely disregarding his politics, i never got why people found bush so super likable tbqh. i'd personally rather have a beer with kerry.

at least with the trump/hillary election, i could say "well these are definitely two of the least likable presidential candidates in the history of the united states so i can almost sort of see why trump won."

He's folksy and quaint to them. It's an America thing. It's the same reason why people liked Trump: he comes across as relatable in his speech and mannerisms (even if he's a completely out-of-touch alleged millionaire.)

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Trump's initial support came purely from people rejecting traditional career politicians and their bullshit. He did a very good job of presenting himself as an everyman who was going to "drain the swamp" which people ate up in droves. The obvious problem with that is that he was just as corrupt and self-serving as Hillary, and as soon as he won the election that became extremely apparent, but all the people he conned into supporting him didn't want to admit their stupidity, which subsequently bred the weird cult-like nature of his supporters.

Inviso posted...

He's folksy and quaint to them. It's an America thing. It's the same reason why people liked Trump: he comes across as relatable in his speech and mannerisms (even if he's a completely out-of-touch alleged millionaire.)

that does make sense. same reason why bill clinton was popular, i assume. americans seem to find it extremely important that a president seems like a "lovable neighbor" or "guy who would be fun to hang out with in a bar" (regardless of how based in reality these images are).

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

that does make sense. same reason why bill clinton was popular, i assume. americans seem to find it extremely important that a president seems like a "lovable neighbor" or "guy who would be fun to hang out with in a bar" (regardless of how based in reality these images are).

Yep. Bill Clinton was the exact same way

This is also why I eye roll at AOC talking about playing league of legends.

It's literally the exact same thing for a demographic 30 years younger

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Same with Obama and Biden too.

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https://twitter.com/marcgoldwein/status/1427950099750170626?s=21

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A+ response.

Sadly, no amount of data about the net positive of immigrants and refugees will allay the fears and suspicions that dwell in bigoted hearts.

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Trump actually gave a very good explanation of when you should flip flop during the 2016 campaign - when you've received new information which shows you that your old position was wrong.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

A+ response.

Sadly, no amount of data about the net positive of immigrants and refugees will allay the fears and suspicions that dwell in bigoted hearts.

Immigration is great, you are attracting people who are going to make a positive impact on your society with strict entry requirements and background checking. Refugees are harmful as they are often uneducated and represent more of a drain on society. If you disregard the humanitarian aspect of refugee programs, there is zero net positive for the destination country, and a lot of negatives particularly if you look at Europe after the Syrian war broke out

masterplum posted...

Yeah, people don't remember that George W was extremely personable..

Heroic_TuRtLe posted...

[Trump] did a very good job of presenting himself as an everyman who was going to "drain the swamp"

These were absolutely baffling takes at the time, and they're even worse in retrospect. I'm not gonna claim that people didn't say this but it's definitely not something that's, like, objectively true, and I'd argue that most of the people saying it during each candidate's respective campaign didn't really believe it either.

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Kenri posted...

These were absolutely baffling takes at the time, and they're even worse in retrospect. I'm not gonna claim that people didn't say this but it's definitely not something that's, like, objectively true, and I'd argue that most of the people saying it during each candidate's respective campaign didn't really believe it either.

It was absolutely believed. He didn't do it, but he definitely said he would, and people believed him.

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People might have believed him, but I reject the notion that they believed it because he did a good job of portraying himself as the everyman.

The idea that billionaire donald trump was legitimately believable as an everyman speaks more to how willing people are to deceive themselves than it does to his campaign's presentation of him.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

The idea that billionaire donald trump was legitimately believable as an everyman speaks more to how willing people are to deceive themselves than it does to his campaign's presentation of him.

100%. This is a really good way of putting it.

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I don't know if it Trump's presentation was "everyman" so much as "outsider" or "change of pace" or "not a politician"

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I mean Trump has been running his personal branding propaganda about being a self-made millionaire for decades now, I wouldn't say he did a BAD job of that either. He doesn't have to get all the details right because it taps into a really powerful idea in American culture: that anyone can make it big and we are all just "temporarily embarrassed millionaires." He ran The Apprentice and that whole reality TV boom relied a ton on this trope. Trump could afford to fuck up during the campaign because all the PR groundwork was already there.

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Trump's presentation was just mask off.

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Trump did not present himself as an everyman. He presented himself as an outsider billionaire to fight against the insider billionaires.

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Whatever "everyman" appeal Trump had was really just a bunch of bigots thinking "finally I can vote for someone who's as outwardly racist as I am".

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When I say he presented himself as an "everyman" it was more in his behavior than anything. He's the only candidate in recent memory that just said fuck it to political norms and decorum, which gave him an air of legitimacy since he wasn't "faking it" in debates or during speeches. People can't relate to a stuffy politician that has never really shown their true personalities like Clinton and Biden. It's also part of the reason why Bernie Sanders has such a cult of personality. There's a certain authenticity to what Trump/Sanders said during campaigns, and to a certain degree, I suspect Trump had every intention of going in and "shaking things up", and either got railroaded by the stronger political figures in the room, or just gave in to cronyism and corruption without really realizing it.

Hanlon's razor in action

So basically go watch Warren Beatty's Bulworth?

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red sox 777 posted...

Trump did not present himself as an everyman. He presented himself as an outsider billionaire to fight against the insider billionaires.

This. Nobody actually thought he was not a rich person, they thought he was an admirable businessman

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Whatever "everyman" appeal Trump had was really just a bunch of bigots thinking "finally I can vote for someone who's as outwardly racist as I am".

Handwaving Trump as just "outwardly racist" really minimizes a lot of the real issues that affect areas with high levels of illegal immigration. Again, I am all in favour of immigration, my grandparents being immigrants themselves, but when you have people jumping the border, the people that are most affected are the people that are following the proper immigration process, paying taxes and improving society. The next most affected are the people living in those areas that have to deal with all the problems unrestricted immigration causes.

Should families be jailed and deported en masse? No, but the rules around immigration need to be tightened, and illegal immigrants that are currently in the US should be vetted and forced to go through the proper channels, and only deported if they are actively committing crimes.