Current Events > Against my better judgement, I play through TLOU2. *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

Found it at a local game store for about $15 back in March. Been putting it off until I realized that I wanna play Ghost of Tsushima properly AFTER this one, so might as well get it out of the way.

Got that scene at the beginning out of the way, now I can finally start playing the game. Hard mode, just like my first time through TLOU1.

Glad I kinda waited actually, playing this at 60 FPS on a PS5. Like Ghost of Tsushima this was basically a PS5 game disguised as a PS4 exclusive anyway, so it scales so amazingly well.

Since some people think I want this game to be underwhelming before I even start, this is what I think is great so far:

-Graphics are fucking-A. The snow in particular is some of the most realistic stuff Ive seen in any game.
-The worldbuilding at the beginning is decent. The buildup to that scene is a little long, but adds to the tension of you expecting something to happen,
-Controls feel a little tighter than in TLOU1, no hit boxes on the infected.

Course, I read the leaks which is probably the only reason why I didnt ragequit after that scene for the night. Thats not my only gripe either:

-The setup at the beginning makes perfect sense for Ellie.but makes nearly no sense for Abby. Talk about a convenience plot. Dont tell me theyre gonna explain properly it later, cause I cant think of how hard the stars had to align for things to work out like they did.

-Abby being able to knuckledust infected seems like a cheap way to make her play like Joel in the first game in terms of difficulty.

-Ellies switchblade stealth kill means that Clickers are just about as difficult as the regular infected. I hope that changes later on but I doubt it.

-These guns have pathetically low ammo counts. 6 bullets in a presumably well-kept non-revolver pistol? I guess thats just an excuse to persuade you to upgrade the capacity later on or maybe for difficulty balancing, but seeing as how ol reliable brick and bottle are still present I might just have to resort for those.

Overall, I already know the story is gonna suck ass so now Im just curious to see how they improve the gameplay. But so far, it seems like the pattern of loot, sneak/fight, explore is intact for better or worse.

---

I actually really liked it. Hope you do too.

---

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Course, I read the leaks which is probably the only reason why I didnt ragequit after that scene for the night.

I didn't know about it and I started laughing. Mainly because I didn't see it coming and it was done so dirty. Literally my favorite moment of the game. People act like he's been in an entire series already. He was the protagonist of one game. Quit being so soft.

Memorable moments in games are so hard to come by when you've already played enough of them and that shit was memorable.

---

That scene made no sense unless you knew about Abbys past and literally everyone knew nothing about Abbys past yet, so it just came off as convenience plot as how its presented

Well, just completed downtown Seattle (even got the trophy for exploring all the areas) and thats it for the night.

Are they doing that thing they did in Uncharted 4 where everything looks open-ended but it really isnt? It sure feels like that; only worthwhile place was the one where you found the shotgun

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

but makes nearly no sense for Abby. Talk about a convenience plot.

what do you mean?

---

Not really sure why you're bothering.

What do you think doesn't make sense about the scene? That she found Joel? Seems pretty obvious that Joel would be one of the lookouts for the town.

Yeah she got lucky but it's not farfetched.

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Are they doing that thing they did in Uncharted 4 where everything looks open-ended but it really isnt? It sure feels like that; only worthwhile place was the one where you found the shotgun

no, Downtown Seattle is the only real open area.

the rest can be sizeable stages, but they're pretty linear.

---

Can someone just tell me what 'that scene' is.

I'm not going to play either and want it spoiled. I got a good ways into the first one and found it too repetitive.

---

I hated the first game with a passion. 2nd I thought was pretty amazing.

---

^ Joel, one of the protagonists of the first game, is brutally murdered within the first hour and a half

edit: at post 9

---

g0ldie posted...

^ Joel, one of the protagonists of the first game, is brutally murdered within the first hour and a half

edit: at post 9

Oh I figured that happened in the first game. Never thought he was going to survive it

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

That scene made no sense unless you knew about Abbys past and literally everyone knew nothing about Abbys past yet, so it just came off as convenience plot as how its presented

I'll admit, I wasn't really that attached to him. And it being a big "fuck you" to people who were was part of why I laughed. I usually don't take pleasure in stuff like that, but it's just a video game to me and I wouldn't mind if the shoe was on the other foot. Plus I like when stuff like that happens because it makes you more unsure of the safety of anybody in any form art. Which in turn, makes you appreciate when it doesn't happen to characters you like even more. There were a lot of levels to why I liked it and laughed. The intensity of the entire scene definitely played into it too.

---

ShyOx posted...

Oh I figured that happened in the first game. Never thought he was going to survive it

the part that many people especially hate is that *heavy spoilers for TLoU2* is that you play his killer for half of the game

---

g0ldie posted...

what do you mean?

*hunts down someone with their only lead is that hes named Joel*
Im Joel, hes Tommy
*immediately goes for the shotgun & golf club when she can*

Theres a reason why it was a joke going around for a while that Abby went around the country killing anyone named Joel like a psychopath before the events of the game

Darmik posted...

Not really sure why you're bothering.

Did you think I was bluffing about finding it cheap and used and waiting for my PS4 to get fixed or getting a PS5 to eventually play it? All of that? At least I have Ghost of Tsushima to chase this game out of my HDD.

Darmik posted...

What do you think doesn't make sense about the scene? That she found Joel? Seems pretty obvious that Joel would be one of the lookouts for the town.

Joel never even has his last name revealed until his grave and were supposed to believe that she put two and two together without even that much, dont give Druckmann any credit for how they had their fateful encounter because its just that.

You know how I thought Id hate this game but then I played it and my opinion changed is a common anecdote shared when it comes to this game? Yeah Im not obligated to feel the same way lol; I had TLOU1 spoiled for me too and that just made me want to finish it even more.

In comparison if went in blind here with no idea that the game would blueball me in terms of payoff then Id be VERY salty, so if anything the leaks are probably increasing my patience with this game overall

---

Tommy says Joel is his brother.

Joel would be known as Tommy's brother since it was Tommy's community they were looking for.

---

Lost_All_Senses posted...

I'll admit, I wasn't really that attached to him. And it being a big "fuck you" to people who were was part of why I laughed. I usually don't take pleasure in stuff like that, but it's just a video game to me and I wouldn't mind if the shoe was on the other foot. Plus I like when stuff like that happens because it makes you more unsure of the safety of anybody in any form art. Which in turn, makes you appreciate when it doesn't happen to characters you like even more. There were a lot of levels to why I liked it and laughed. The intensity of the entire scene definitely played into it too.

As a writer whos publishing his first work this year, Im willing to appreciate the idea that a happy ending only depends on where you stop your story and I also think that the MST 3K Mantra (its just fiction, relax) is always good to keep in mind when getting invested into anything.

That being said, you also cant have your cake and eat it too; theres no telling what part of a story that your reader will enjoy or even see the same way as someone else so youre not obligated to do anything but tell it. Druck wants his emotional story beats (like the Joel In One scene) but also wants you to sympathize with Abby even though itll never fucking happen lol

All I can hope is that her friends get cathartically rest by Tommy or Ellie herself throughout the game

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

*hunts down someone with their only lead is that hes named Joel*
Im Joel, hes Tommy
*immediately goes for the shotgun & golf club when she can*

Theres a reason why it was a joke going around for a while that Abby went around the country killing anyone named Joel like a psychopath before the events of the game

they already had a lead Joel's brother was in Jackson, and Owen spent time tracking it down on his own, as we've seen.

Joel and Tommy were said to be tracking a horde of infected and that's why they went on patrol early before the others.

Abby's plan was to find anyone from Jackson and torture them for info on Tommy and/or Joel, and when she was close to Jackson, she saw horse tracks, iirc, and followed them.

so it's like Abby -> Jackson lead that ended up being Joel and Tommy - > infected horde

so yea, her finding the two was fortuitous, but it was justified by in-game writing that made sense b

---

Darmik posted...

Tommy says Joel is his brother.

Joel would be known as Tommy's brother since it was Tommy's community they were looking for.

Still that's not exactly iron-clad proof. There could other brothers in the town named Tommy and Joel, since those are very common names. Thats why I thought the last names wouldve been a bigger deal here. You'd think they'd at dig at least a little bit further just to be sure they are the right ones, but Abbys a brute who thought oh well just torture it out of someone and then what lol, Joel and Tommy themselves were gonna go investigate personally?

Plus Jackson is a BEEG, armed community with multiple patrol groups. Abbys lottery-ticket-lucky she ran into Joel and Tommy out of ALL the patrols.

---

Other than "that scene", the part I hate the most is the inclusion of Levi. Not because I hate the character. I don't, probably my favorite in the game. I hate that he is used as a way to be like, "you can't hate Abby, look at what she is doing for Levi!"

He seems to be a ot device to get people to feel sympathetic to Abby.

---

_MorningStar posted...

Other than "that scene", the part I hate the most is the inclusion of Levi. Not because I hate the character. I don't, probably my favorite in the game. I hate that he is used as a way to be like, "you can't hate Abby, look at what she is doing for Levi!"

He seems to be a ot device to get people to feel sympathetic to Abby.

Im willing to reserve judgement on that since apparently Abbys own people call her out on that too. Apparently.

If so then gj Druckmann, you knew that wouldnt be sympathetic from the get-go.

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Druck wants his emotional story beats (like the Joel In One scene) but also wants you to sympathize with Abby even though itll never fucking happen lol

no, he wants you to empathize with Abby (of course, sympathizing with her would be a bonus).

the point is that you're supposed to understand her actions, whether you agree with them or not.

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Still that's not exactly iron-clad proof. There could other brothers in the town named Tommy and Joel, since those are very common names. Thats why I thought the last names wouldve been a bigger deal here. You'd think they'd at dig at least a little bit further just to be sure they are the right ones, but Abbys a brute who thought oh well just torture it out of someone and then what lol, Joel and Tommy themselves were gonna go investigate personally?

Plus Jackson is a BEEG, armed community with multiple patrol groups. Abbys lottery-ticket-lucky she ran into Joel and Tommy out of ALL the patrols.

It's an apocalypse where most people are dead. How many Tommy and Joel brothers who are also both capable of violence and defending themselves be out there?

Also I didn't really get the impression Jackson had a lot of people patrolling. Overall they're a peaceful community. Kinda seems like the people we meet are most of the people who defend the town.

---

I was writing a response and my phone fucked up or something and it got deleted. Too irritated to start over. If you made up "Joel in one" tho, that's hilarious. I hadn't heard that.

---

Darmik posted...

It's an apocalypse where most people are dead. How many Tommy and Joel brothers who are also both capable of violence and defending themselves be out there?

There are still quarantine zones. And even other settlements and such we never heard about all over the place. Humanity wasn't as endangered as we were lead to believe in the first game. So there could be lots of Joel and Tommys.

---

g0ldie posted...

no, he wants you to empathize with Abby (of course, sympathizing with her would be a bonus).

the point is that you're supposed to understand her actions, whether you agree with them or not.

That worked at the end of TLOU1 because we had a whole game to understand Joel and Ellie. Thats not gonna work here because Abbys a horrible person and I want Ellie to win. Honestly, it would have been a much, much better game if they had rightly painted Abby as wrong for betraying Joel after he helped her. That scene was great, some selfless-ass shit that shows just how much Joel had changed since the last game.

Its like I heard somewhere I cant remember, if Stalin gives me a hand up when I'm about to fall off a cliff and I kill him immediately after, I'm a betrayer of a benefactor and some of the worst scum to exist even if I've done an objective good for the world. And Joel didn't do anything half as bad as Stalin.

The funny thing is, all Druck had to do is reveal her past earlier (even before she killed Joel) and maybe more people wouldve swayed to her side. And to think that people are comparing playing as her like playing as Raiden from MGS2 (which I actually enjoyed)

---

_MorningStar posted...

There are still quarantine zones. And even other settlements and such we never heard about all over the place. Humanity wasn't as endangered as we were lead to believe in the first game. So there could be lots of Joel and Tommys.

They knew what settlement they were looking for. Tommy and Joel are both the most known people in that town.

It would be a massive coincidence if it wasn't them. They aren't some randoms hiding out. Tommy even invites them to come into the town which shows he is someone of authority.

AvantgardeAClue posted...

That worked at the end of TLOU1 because we had a whole game to understand Joel and Ellie. Thats not gonna work here because Abbys a horrible person and I want Ellie to win. Honestly, it would have been a much, much better game if they had rightly painted Abby as wrong for betraying Joel after he helped her.

They do paint that as wrong?

AvantgardeAClue posted...

The funny thing is, all Druck had to do is reveal her past earlier (even before she killed Joel) and maybe more people wouldve swayed to her side.

He wants you to hate her while playing as Ellie.


---

Darmik posted...

They knew what settlement they were looking for.

Based on what lol, Abbys word? Even her friends were rightfully skeptical they were in the right place. For all we know shes been eliminating any Joel she can swing a 9-iron at.

Darmik posted...

He wants you to hate her while playing as Ellie.

He also expects you to understand to an extent, which is never gonna happen because you mostly play as Abby AFTER she does the deed, good job Druck.

Joel did nothing wrong is a commonly shared sentiment in comparison, with good reason.

---

In my headcanon Abby overhears Marlene talking to her dad about Joel, mentions Tommy, his former affiliation with the Fireflies, and that he lives in Jackson.

---

sorry, the empathy part comes in later (since you're aware of the spoilers, you know what I mean).

at that point, you're supposed to hate Abby, and all you're supposed to know is that Abby wants to get revenge against Joel for his past misdeeds.

whether your position on her changes as the game goes on, or not, doesn't matter as much as you at least understanding why she did what she did. justification, quality of character, etc. are all secondary.

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Based on what lol, Abbys word? Even her friends were rightfully skeptical they were in the right place. For all we know shes been eliminating any Joel she can swing a 9-iron at.

Pretty sure they say that they know Joel lives in Jackson from people who have been there right? Maybe that's later.

---

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Joel did nothing wrong is a commonly shared sentiment in comparison, with good reason.

the reason why Joel has a problem figuring out who Abby is is because he knew that he's done a lot of wrong, and didn't know exactly how he personally wronged her (because he's hurt a lot of people)

---

g0ldie posted...

sorry, the empathy part comes in later (since you're aware of the spoilers, you know what I mean).

at that point, you're supposed to hate Abby, and all you're supposed to know is that Abby wants to get revenge against Joel for his past misdeeds.

whether your position on her changes as the game goes on, or not, doesn't matter as much as you at least understanding why she did what she did. justification, quality of character, etc. are all secondary.

If Druck wrote anything coherent in his life, hed know that when you designate a character as a hate sink the reader is expecting either some sort of comeuppance or getting away with it. Anything else is gonna make the reader wonder why you even bothered to begin with.

Nobody would care that Umbridge in Harry Potter had a rough childhood, because she already did a LOT of stuff that would put her on the readers shit list. I already know what Abbys motive is and even if I didnt, I still wouldnt understand. Its like in Spec Ops The Line: just because Im horrified by the events that occur doesnt mean that I personally feel responsible (like Spec Ops makes you try to feel) because there was no other way to progress the game in both Spec Ops and TLOU1; I was just along for the ride. Hell, in TLOU1 you can choose to spare the other people and get bonus dialogue indicating that you did.

Anywho, raiding the hotel tomorrow. I know this shotgun can have a stock on it once I find a workbench

---

Plenty of stories take you from hating a character on first impression and then gradually liking them as they get more fleshed out.

---

Abby's circumstances are totally different than those examples, though - Joel killed her dad, someone she idolized, and led to the ruin of the Fireflies.

if she was a mercenary, for example, with no personal connection to Joel, it would be one thing, but because of him (from her perspective), her whole world was turned around.

and should some dude saving your life once mean that she should consider them square? some people would say yes, but revenge and hate aren't always rational things that can be undone, especially if they're things a person focused on for years.

also, just because you might "designate a character as a hate sink", it doesn't mean they have to be throughout the story; writers take chances, and whether their attempts are successful or not depend on the reader, viewer, and/or player.

---

oh yea, here's a gameplay tip - you can go into the accessibility menu and click on the option to automatically pick up stuff while you're close to them so you're not constantly tapping a button.

---

I'm still interested in how else they present it, but end of the day I'm not gonna like Abby and this isn't some "give it a chance" thing. Even her own VA was disgusted at her when she finally played the game lol

g0ldie posted...

oh yea, here's a gameplay tip - you can go into the accessibility menu and click on the option to automatically pick up stuff while you're close to them so you're not constantly tapping a button.

Not sure if that's a QOL feature or part of Journalist Mode

---

as someone who liked TLoU2, I didn't like either Ellie or Abby.

I liked a couple of the side-characters, but that was about it.

---