Current Events > Is there a non-emotional reason to be against an easy mode in Dark Souls?

(+) Yeah! (+)

BlackJackCat posted...

This isn't a magic bullet answer to a multi-facet problem

Magic bullet you say...

Ragnarider posted...

Sorcery + summoning = easy mode

Shamino posted...

Because elitist souls players are nosey and need to make sure other players are playing the game "correctly"

Dude, you not see people posting about "cowards" and "participation trophies" in these topics? It's not about nosiness and has nothing to do with playing the game the right way. They take pride in playing Souls games. But a fragment of those who take pride in it, because they have very little to be proud of in their lives, it manifests in them taking shit to people about trivial things like beating a video game because it's all they have.

Seriously. I beat the original US release of DMC3, and find the actual intended "normal" difficulty of the special edition way too easy. But I don't go around calling people names for playing easy automatic like a petty 5-year old, FFS.

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You could try arguing this point any way you like, it doesn't matter.

no, it really does. how many times do people argue for it without knowing? they want a mode where they take more hits. there you go.

if you run into something without being prepared and you have 50 vit you're gonna get more then a few hacks at it. it's an easy mode. you are become bullet sponge.

but the game is also vague about encouraging players to level it and armor, as i think i said. like there is at least one guide on here that explicitly tells players not to level vit because of some 'needing it means you suck' logic.

i've already addressed that they're vague with vit and armor upgrades i think. it absolutely is the magic bullet answer you needed to claim it wasn't, because you know it is.

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ButteryMales posted...

Magic bullet you say...

lol now THAT is a magic bullet for sure, but again, try telling that to someone who doesn't even know, or want to know, what the fuck is going on to begin with. It's just pointless.

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BlackJackCat posted...

lol now THAT is a magic bullet for sure, but again, try telling that to someone who doesn't even know, or want to know, what the fuck is going on to begin with. It's just pointless.

At this point you can't make a game easy enough for them so there's no reason to waste resources and reputation.

Congratulations on 150 posts, everybody. What an incredible accomplishment.
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Fluttershy posted...

no, it really does. how many times do people argue for it without knowing? they want a mode where they take more hits. there you go.

if you run into something without being prepared and you have 50 vit you're gonna get more then a few hacks at it. it's an easy mode. you are become bullet sponge.

but the game is also vague about encouraging players to level it and armor, as i think i said. like there is at least one guide on here that explicitly tells players not to level vit because of some 'needing it means you suck' logic.

i've already addressed that they're vague with vit and armor upgrades i think. it absolutely is the magic bullet answer you needed to claim it wasn't, because you know it is.

I mean you're preaching to the choir, but you're asking people to take more than two minutes to learn something, and that's off putting. It's like handing a combat flight simulator to someone who has only ever played Ace Combat and saying "git gud, read the fucking 400 page manual you fucking scrub"

Okay, it's not that extreme, but the threshold for someone of the more casual side to get turned off by a more "hardcore" game is not big enough to argue this point when someone is gonna shut down in under an hour of gameplay they don't like. And if I'm being honest, I don't totally blame them for where they're coming from. I have a hard time empathizing because I understand the game way better, but I can definitely see how a shitty experience is not fun, and people generally don't like not having fun.

You and I might be willing and able to put the time in to learn this shit, and it took hours of trial and error for, I assume you too, to get where you have this knowledge. But we did that of our own volition. If someone doesn't want to put in the work, telling them to do the work isn't an argument they're gonna accept, period.

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Yes

Because it should be up to the devs and if the devs dont want to add one they shouldnt be forced to

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Creator intent.

Having just beaten Dark Souls last night, there are plenty of options to make it easier. Summoning basically is easy mode.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Congratulations on 150 posts, everybody. What an incredible accomplishment.

500 or bust

get good easy dark souls mode wanters

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BlackJackCat posted...

I mean you're preaching to the choir, but you're asking people to take more than two minutes to learn something, and that's off putting. It's like handing a combat flight simulator to someone who has only ever played Ace Combat and saying "git gud, read the fucking 400 page manual you fucking scrub"

Okay, it's not that extreme, but the threshold for someone of the more casual side to get turned off by a more "hardcore" game is not big enough to argue this point when someone is gonna shut down in under an hour of gameplay they don't like. And if I'm being honest, I don't totally blame them for where they're coming from. I have a hard time empathizing because I understand the game way better, but I can definitely see how a shitty experience is not fun, and people generally don't like not having fun.

You and I might be willing and able to put the time in to learn this shit, and it took hours of trial and error for, I assume you too, to get where you have this knowledge. But we did that of our own volition. If someone doesn't want to put in the work, telling them to do the work isn't an argument they're gonna accept, period.

This is the issue. everyone saying "git gud" doesn't seem to realize that it can take a lot of time. And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn unless you resign yourself to the fact that you might struggle a long time to learn it and spend tons of time, time that could be spent having fun elsewhere.
And to be fair, the issue with souls isn't just the game difficulty. The controls can be hard to understand and nothing in the world is explained very well. Mistakes can be made with consequences that can take forever to fix (with an obtuse system of course)
So when a game has this many layers of difficulty it can easier to see why people want an easier version. Heck, even a version that explains in detail the mechanics of the game and what stats are useful would go a long way.

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you're asking people to take more than two minutes to learn something

ehhh. if i had my way this stuff would be introduced organically. the player doesn't really get to see how effective vit is or how good armor upgrades are until they try them out. i think the tiny being ring getting a slight buff and being an early-game treasure would actually motivate players into messing with vit, but that's a stretch. it isn't like having the crestfallen knight saying damn i got one shot i wish i didn't pump resistance.

and like -- i'd make the leather chestpiece +3. because it's light and it looks goofy. it would be slightly stronger than the stuff nearby and a lot lighter so players would get that upgrading good.

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Shamino posted...

This is the issue. everyone saying "git gud" doesn't seem to realize that it can take a lot of time. And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn unless you resign yourself to the fact that you might struggle a long time to learn it and spend tons of time, time that could be spent having fun elsewhere.

That is literally the design of the game. If you dont like it play something else because its not for you

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Shamino posted...

This is the issue. everyone saying "git gud" doesn't seem to realize that it can take a lot of time. And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn unless you resign yourself to the fact that you might struggle a long time to learn it and spend tons of time, time that could be spent having fun elsewhere.

Here however is where I say that just like the combat flight simulator isn't for everyone, so too is Dark Souls not for everyone. And this argument becomes an impasse, because people will say "but FROM could get more money!" about a game that has already made them a lot of money. Hence why the whole debate is moot; no one who is in the position to do anything gives a damn.

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Shamino posted...

And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn

Wrong. The series got successful because it is very fun. It's old-school Castlevania with unlimited retries. Not even a very hard game in the grand scheme of things.

Shamino posted...

This is the issue. everyone saying "git gud" doesn't seem to realize that it can take a lot of time. And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn unless you resign yourself to the fact that you might struggle a long time to learn it and spend tons of time, time that could be spent having fun elsewhere.

Then don't play the game? If the core concept of the game is not fun to you, the solution is to not play.

The devs will never accommodate this. They have 12 years of development under their belt. They have released 6 succesful games following the formula they created from the get-go, all of which sold quite well. They are not concerned about "gatekeeping". They have a loyal fanbase that they built from the ground up. They don't care about "gittin gud". They built in all sorts of mechanisms to cheese the game beyond anything an easy mode could accomplish.

If after 12 years and 6 different games you still don't care for the games mechanics, or still haven't taken a basic glance at a wiki to figure out where the OP build stuff is hidden or what a specific stat does, then there's not much I can tell you. You just simply don't like the game. And that's fine. Go find something else to play.

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Fluttershy posted...

ehhh. if i had my way this stuff would be introduced organically. the player doesn't really get to see how effective vit is or how good armor upgrades are until they try them out. i think the tiny being ring getting a slight buff and being an early-game treasure would actually motivate players into messing with vit, but that's a stretch. it isn't like having the crestfallen knight saying damn i got one shot i wish i didn't pump resistance.

and like -- i'd make the leather chestpiece +3. because it's light and it looks goofy. it would be slightly stronger than the stuff nearby and a lot lighter so players would get that upgrading good.

I mean the game does kind of already do that in the most extreme way. It expects you try things and see where it goes. And I like that design myself because I'm okay with trial and error. But even I had thought at times "man I'd love to maybe have an option to respec at least." And experimenting with weapons and all is cool, but harvesting the stuff to spec up, depending on how far along you are, can be tedious and difficult, again, locking you into being considerate.

All of these things are merits to one side, to the other it's just reasons to not experiment. The information doesn't readily make itself apparent in game, and even a surface search of guides for builds and strategy can be confusing because there is a bit to consider. Also, me personally again, if I felt compelled to have to play a game off of someone elses guidance largely I'd kinda take that as a huge negative, especially a game like this where the culture can mockingly stigmatize this kind of thing.

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It expects you try things and see where it goes.

stats are the one time you get signposts -- red numbers when you can't use. this is true of most stats, but not vit, but how could it ever be?

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Holy shit, people are dense.

The marketing tagline is literally "prepare to die". The fact that it is difficult is the main selling point of the game. The terms "the Dark Souls of ___" and "Dark Souls difficulty" are memetic industry phrases at this point. Why the fuck would From (or the game fanbase) ever want to compromise this?

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I've never played a Souls-style game, and likely never will.

But I gotta say I hope they never add an easy mode.

It's just too funny seeing how it riles up game journalists and the "usual" REEEsetera-type crowd.

Fluttershy posted...

stats are the one time you get signposts -- red numbers when you can't use. this is true of most stats, but not vit, but how could it ever be?

Like I said, that doesn't make itself self-evident. You could still have 50 vitality and get crushed if you're just not adept at the controls.

Or maybe your playstyle isn't suited for the weapon you're using, and you're at a point in the game when making a switch is really difficult. So you're locked into a play style that you're not good at and a character that has slightly more HP and resilience than a wet paper bag against bosses.

In both of those cases you're left with either restarting, or the proverbial git gud, and you and I both know most casual players won't even entertain the game even that long to get to those considerations, let alone see the inherent long-term benefit of high vitality.

Nothing really "changes" in those instances to make having a beefy vitality stat inherently an intuitive choice if you don't know how everything else works around it. Which is why I said this isn't really advice that makes anything click because its effect is more nuanced.

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Kyle1022 posted...

I've never played a Souls-style game, and likely never will.

But I gotta say I hope they never add an easy mode.

It's just too funny seeing how it riles up game journalists and the "usual" REEEsetera-type crowd.

I think its the fact that the games review very well and has a huge and eager fanbase. Those who cannot get past the game's learning curve know they are missing out on great gaming experiences and are upset about it.

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One of the biggest appeal of Dark Souls is that feeling of overcoming a challenge. If you can just face tank everything spamming R1, that whole feeling is gone. It's like wanting to play a puzzle game where you don't have to think.

Should every game have a God Mode where you simply cant lose? A skip button to get to the next "scene"? At some point, you should just consider watching a let's play.

Besides, there is an "easy mode". If for some reason there's that one boss you just can't get past and you just want to be able to skip that, there's summoning. Summoning NPCs and if you really can't get past a boss, summoning another player.

LMAO, I only just noticed this is a parody topic...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/79467960

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KyerWiz posted...

It's like wanting to play a puzzle game where you don't have to think.

That is a perfect description.

You could still have 50 vitality and get crushed if you're just not adept at the controls.

it would take several crushings.

Nothing really "changes" in those instances to make having a beefy vitality stat inherently an intuitive choice if you don't know how everything else works around it.

this is why i had the tiny being ring suggestion. i think if you want players to engage with a system down to a certain part of it, let them demo it.

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Fluttershy posted...

it would take several crushings.

In the right circumstances, I'd agree, once again, vitality isn't the one and only aspect here to consider. Armor and damage type are considerations as well. One build and equipment set I had was spongy against Four Kings, another I had I was sweating to down them fast before they fucked me up.

this is why i had the tiny being ring suggestion. i think if you want players to engage with a system down to a certain part of it, let them demo it.

Sure, that's a thing, but an extra 5%, once again, isn't making itself apparent to anyone who isn't meticulously looking, especially early on.

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ButteryMales posted...

Nah, you'll probably say it's still too hard and drop it.

That's the bottom line. The people bitching about Souls games now, will never be unemotional enough to see them through the game even with an easy mode. At any level. They'll bitch and ragequit still.

No one is born automatically able to beat or play the game. Everyone who played and beat the game had to learn. Anyone willing to learn the game can play them right out the box.

It's noteworthy when someone posts a Souls playthrough on a board. You get get people from all walks of life talking about how they overcame this or that section. And the section that is hard for one is easy for another.

But we all went through the same experience. That's the point.


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Shamino posted...
This is the issue. everyone saying "git gud" doesn't seem to realize that it can take a lot of time. And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn unless you resign yourself to the fact that you might struggle a long time to learn it and spend tons of time, time that could be spent having fun elsewhere.

You were better at the bad basketball analogy.

This, right here, is why there should never be an easy mode in Souls. Imagine - taking you at your word - all those things and winning anyway.

I win elsewhere too. Business, relationships, life. But winning at Souls is Triumph at gaming. Given all you said, the Souls player does it anyway.

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Armor and damage type are considerations as well. One build and equipment set I had was spongy against Four Kings, another I had I was sweating to down them fast before they fucked me up.

but when you talk about effective HP you have to talk about actual HP. because it's really really important.

vit is the succinct and awesome difficulty slider you guys want. also my tiny being ring suggestion would give it a buff, because it doesn't motivate anything as it stands.

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brestugo posted...

This is the issue. everyone saying "git gud" doesn't seem to realize that it can take a lot of time. And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn unless you resign yourself to the fact that you might struggle a long time to learn it and spend tons of time, time that could be spent having fun elsewhere.

You were better at the bad basketball analogy.

This, right here, is why there should never be an easy mode in Souls. Imagine - taking you at your word - all those things and winning anyway.

I win elsewhere too. Business, relationships, life. But winning at Souls is Triumph at gaming. Given all you said, the Souls player does it anyway.

So you had the tenacity to win? That's nice, I did too. But that has nothing to do with a casual player who likes the idea of the game but has too many barriers to overcome to play it and have fun.

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Fluttershy posted...

vit is the succinct and awesome difficulty slider you guys want. also my tiny being ring suggestion would give it a buff, because it doesn't motivate anything as it stands.

Yes. Long-term. Not in the first hour of gameplay.

Think of this in the same way that writers deal with their audience, particularly in novel writing. If you can't grab your audience in the first few sentences, you've lost them. They're not coming back. They won't read the rest of the book.

Same thing here. If in the first hour the cumulative effect of vit doesn't make a huge impact, and bear in mind, just because you know what the outcome will be doesn't mean a new player will, and that because you can grab and hold onto a shitton of souls to get a 5+ point boost in one sitting doesn't mean a new player can.

What you're saying makes sense, and I agree on the premise as I know it's true, I've seen the end results, but a new player likely won't, and will get pissed off because of that and still drop the game.

All I'm saying is yeah, your advice is great for an intermediate player; it means fuck all to a newbie, and it's not a surefire way to get someone to understand how the rest of the mechanics work. If anything it's just empty calories.

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Shamino posted...

So you had the tenacity to win? That's nice, I did too. But that has nothing to do with a casual player who likes the idea of the game but has too many barriers to overcome to play it and have fun.

Not for you then.

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BlackJackCat posted...

What you're saying makes sense, and I agree on the premise as I know it's true, I've seen the end results, but a new player likely won't, and will get pissed off because of that and still drop the game.

How do you believe Demons Souls got popular in the first place?

Shamino posted...

So you had the tenacity to win? That's nice, I did too. But that has nothing to do with a casual player who likes the idea of the game but has too many barriers to overcome to play it and have fun.

Sucks for them, perhaps they should find an entertainment option that is targeted to their demographic.

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Shamino posted...

So you had the tenacity to win? That's nice, I did too. But that has nothing to do with a casual player who likes the idea of the game but has too many barriers to overcome to play it and have fun.

No game can be for everyone and in trying to please everyone, you make a generic product that has nothing special to it.

The idea of the game is overcoming challenge. If there is no challenge, there is nothing to overcome. If you just want a mindless hack & slash, there's nothing wrong with that. Plenty of games out there that have similarities to Dark Souls gameplay but skip on anything too challenging.

Are you also going to ask they put the option to remove scary stuff from horror games so people that don't want to be scared can enjoy them?

ButteryMales posted...

How do you believe Demons Souls got popular in the first place?

I mean again, I'm not for adding a difficulty mode to the game, and I've been at this since DeS, so I know the culture, and I know that it gets off on how it filters filthy casuls. But I'm not here to talk about that because this topic was designed to be a shitshow. I'm here to talk about the mechanics here because this is a more interesting topic, and maybe, just maybe, through our discussion, if anyone who actually wants to get into the games reads a discussion about this they might actually learn something and change their views instead of pissing and moaning about the static difficulty. Maybe if they learn what kind of game it actually is instead of the trope, they might accept it's not for them, or maybe give it another try with a new outlook. This is more constructive, in my view.

Yeah the community is meme toxic and we live on casul tears.

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brestugo posted...

This is the issue. everyone saying "git gud" doesn't seem to realize that it can take a lot of time. And there's very little fun in dying over and over trying to learn unless you resign yourself to the fact that you might struggle a long time to learn it and spend tons of time, time that could be spent having fun elsewhere.

You were better at the bad basketball analogy.

This, right here, is why there should never be an easy mode in Souls. Imagine - taking you at your word - all those things and winning anyway.

I win elsewhere too. Business, relationships, life. But winning at Souls is Triumph at gaming. Given all you said, the Souls player does it anyway.

Winning at Souls is absolutely not triumph in gaming, lmfao. Winning the Tetris World Championship is triumph at gaming. Beating Super Mario World blindfolded is triumph in gaming. You sure pat yourself on the back pretty easily.

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ThePrinceFish posted...

Sucks for them, perhaps they should find an entertainment option that is targeted to their demographic.

That's the bottom line. Bourbons, vodkas aren't made for everyone. Fucking ice creams aren't even made for everyone, etc. Why does a game need to be made for everyone?


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BlackJackCat posted...

I mean again, I'm not for adding a difficulty mode to the game, and I've been at this since DeS, so I know the culture, and I know that it gets off on how it filters filthy casuls. But I'm not here to talk about that because this topic was designed to be a shitshow. I'm here to talk about the mechanics here because this is a more interesting topic, and maybe, just maybe, through our discussion, if anyone who actually wants to get into the games reads a discussion about this they might actually learn something and change their views instead of pissing and moaning about the static difficulty. Maybe if they learn what kind of game it actually is instead of the trope, they might accept it's not for them, or maybe give it another try with a new outlook. This is more constructive, in my view.

Yeah the community is meme toxic and we live on casul tears.

Just answer the damn question. The people who played Demon souls were newbies playing a completely unknown and un-memed game.

oh look, it's this topic again. I've beaten every From game with the word "Souls" in the title. This does not make me an MLGPro gamer. I say this because I wonder if there's a non-emotional reason that people have for being incapable of realizing that not every game caters to their personal whims.

If you don't want to put in the time/effort/whatever, there's nothing wrong with that, but why must the game be made easier for you?

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meralonne posted...

oh look, it's this topic again. I've beaten every From game with the word "Souls" in the title. This does not make me an MLGPro gamer. I say this because I wonder if there's a non-emotional reason that people have for being incapable of realizing that not every game caters to their personal whims.

yeah they dont get that. I hate turn based combat. Instead of bitching that i want to be able to enjoy the game too i just dont play them because the people that do enjoy those series enjoy the combat lol

It would be like watching Marvel movies only then getting mad when you watch a horror movie because its too scary then complaining that the horror movie should be more like marvel.

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E_S_M_Z posted...

Winning at Souls is absolutely not triumph in gaming, lmfao. Winning the Tetris World Championship is triumph at gaming. Beating Super Mario World blindfolded is triumph in gaming. You sure pat yourself on the back pretty easily.

For those who enjoy it, it is. For those who enjoy Tetris etc., it is.

I need or seek no pats on the back, but if I was no good at the games you mention, I wouldn't seek weakening changes in the experience. I'd seek to get better to enjoy the experience.

Participation trophies suck ass.

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brestugo posted...

Participation trophies suck ass.

This is because you are viewing playing games as an accomplishment instead of a hobby.
People who want an easy mode aren't looking to brag about beating a game, because such a thing is absurd. They're looking to play a game and have fun. The fact you believe finishing a video game is a "trophy" is quite telling.


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ButteryMales posted...

Just answer the damn question. The people who played Demon souls were newbies playing a completely unknown and un-memed game.

And it had it's share of people who dropped out of the game too. I'm not saying a new player will always get filtered if something doesn't go their way, I'm just saying that the advice that was being given wasn't as helpful short-term as it actually is.

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E_S_M_Z posted...

This is because you are viewing playing games as an accomplishment instead of a hobby.
People who want an easy mode aren't looking to brag about beating a game, because such a thing is absurd. They're looking to play a game and have fun. The fact you believe finishing a video game is a "trophy" is quite telling.

Good thing they have other video games that they can play if they are unable to find the fun in this one.

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E_S_M_Z posted...

This is because you are viewing playing games as an accomplishment instead of a hobby.

Because they arent mutually exclusive. If you're hobbies are building models of some sort and you finish one thats an accomplishment. You dont have to win a competition for it to be considered a success

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