Current Events > Snoke's identity was fundamentally uninteresting to Rian Johnson *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

Finn's character in both movies was fine. He wasn't "reduced to comic relief" in TLJ more than any of the other characters who came over from the first movie.

You keep saying but this just isn't true. The only other person done as dirty as Finn was Hux and both of those were to make Kylo look better.

Finn awoke from a coma and had 3 pratfalls and then run around in a leaking bubble. Tell me what happen to Kylo to compare to that.

---

cjsdowg posted...

Tell me what happen to Kylo to compare to that.

lost a fight to two people who picked up a laser sword for the first time in their lives that moment.

stop trying to pretend finn was ever a main character. it was always only Rey and Kylo. Poe starts with a yo momma joke and you aren't up in arms over that because all you see is skin color.

---

cjsdowg posted...

You keep saying but this just isn't true. The only other person done as dirty as Finn was Hux and both of those were to make Kylo look better.

No, its true. And they weren't "done dirty". They were all better in the second movie because their more comic elements were brought out of them. Its Star Wars.

Finn awoke from a coma and had 3 pratfalls and then run around in a leaking bubble. Tell me what happen to Kylo to compare to that.

He ran around in a "leaking bubble" at his first appearance in the film, before all the pratfalls, which I don't care to qualify or quantify. I don't care to "compare" what happened to Kylo either; you're the one with this weird fixation, not me, and you should stop.

I can't help it if you were offended by the "leaking bubble" thing its weird to me and I don't understand.

---

He ran around in a "leaking bubble" at his first appearance in the film, before all the pratfalls, which I don't care to qualify or quantify. I don't care to "compare" what happened to Kylo either; you're the one with this weird fixation, not me, and you should stop.

The only fixation, I have is pointing out how the African American character was treated poorly. You suggested that everyone was giving like treatment. By comparing him to Kylo I am showing out that flat out they did not.

I can't help it if you were offended by the "leaking bubble" thing its weird to me and I don't understand.

Because black pain is a played as joke. Finn was put into a coma, this wasn't even any weight. This wasn't given any respect. It was made into a joke. And even if you didn't care about the racial implications on movie writing aspect it is bad story telling . Finn was left with a cilfhangger about Finn. How was this going to impact him, was does this injury mean. And RJ came around and said Fuck it and acted like it never happen. Hell even Rey forgot that the only person to ever come back for her was put in a coma by this guy she now is making doe eyes at.


---

cjsdowg posted...

The only fixation, I have is pointing out how the African American character was treated poorly. You suggested that everyone was giving like treatment. By comparing him to Kylo I am showing out that flat out they did not.

Yes, its really weird from the perspective of someone who doesn't think that the movie treated him any "worse" than any of the other characters.

cjsdowg posted...

Because black pain is a played as joke. Finn was put into a coma, this wasn't even any weight. This wasn't given any respect. It was made into a joke.

Finn being put into a coma already had weight in the earlier movie. It doesn't have any weight now because he is better because of sci-fi magic shenanigans. There isn't anything about his pain that is especially "black" besides the fact that his skin color is black; it has no real bearing on the events of the film in question, or its predecessors, since its a fantasy film divorced from our reality of race relations. Whether physical or emotional, pain is often played up as jokes in...well, jokes. Like, almost every joke involves some form of pain. Finally jokes aren't bad things lol.

cjsdowg posted...

And even if you didn't care about the racial implications on movie writing aspect it is bad story telling . Finn was left with a cilfhangger about Finn. How was this going to impact him, was does this injury mean. And RJ came around and said f*** it and acted like it never happen. Hell even Rey forgot that the only person to ever come back for her was put in a coma by this guy she now is making doe eyes at.

I'm not seeing how this is bad storytelling. It just sounds like you're projecting a weird nitpick onto the storytellers.

---

I mean... it was a fundamentally uninteresting question even based on the first film. Probably the only reason I was annoyed they killed him off in Last Jedi was because the amount of time Force Awakens spends setting him up is worthless in hindsight.

---

episode VII set him up like he was gonna be important to the plot.

then episode VIII came and said "fuck this guy!". lol

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

Yes, its really weird from the perspective of someone who doesn't think that the movie treated him any "worse" than any of the other characters.

Yet I can point out how the movie treated him worse. He was not even in the main plot. The actor even complained about his treatment. He went from a leading character to the a side kick of a new character no one liked.

Finn being put into a coma already had weight in the earlier movie. It doesn't have any weight now because he is better because of sci-fi magic shenanigans. There isn't anything about his pain that is especially "black" besides the fact that his skin color is black;

This pain is black because no one cared about it. Like I highlighted before weight was given to Kylo pain but not Finn. Finn pain and injuries was mocked over and over in the movie. Would it have been if Finn punched Rose in the face ? I mean pain is funny right ?

I'm not seeing how this is bad storytelling. It just sounds like you're projecting a weird nitpick onto the storytellers.

It is not a nitpick. RJ threw almost everything set up that JJ gave him away. People are waiting to see what happens to Finn. He makes it a joke, people have been waiting 30 years to see Luke old a light saber once more. It is turned into a joke.

---

this idea that because the first movie in a nine movie series can start in medias res, with some details to come later and some characters' background not yet explained, later movies can also just introduce characters with zero explanation...it doesn't hold water.

world-building becomes stretching when you just inject a new villain without explanation to replace the old ones. the prequels certainly were guilty of this--you had to watch the animated stuff to even know who general grievous was. but that's the comparable criticism, not palpatine, and it's a pretty on-target one.

but there's a fairly straightforward way to view it for people who still enjoyed it: none of these movies are worth any deep thoughts, but the more recent ones especially are not trying to be deep. they're popcorn films and you're just supposed to enjoy the action sequences.

the appropriate response to criticism like this is not "you're a hypocrite for this flimsy reason!" but rather "yes, but who cares? turn your damn brain off and enjoy the explosions."

---

cjsdowg posted...

Yet I can point out how the movie treated him worse. He was not even in the main plot. The actor even complained about his treatment. He went from a leading character to the a side kick of a new character no one liked.

You haven't pointed out how the movie treated him worse, you just said stuff and went "see!?". I do not see how it made him worse. And uh, he was obviously part of the main plot. That's not even debatable. As for Rose; I like Rose, and the people making the movie clearly do too, so neither I or they are going to agree with your asessment at all. Its not a good faith criticism because its making assumptions. Suffice it to say, I also disagree with John Boyega. I think he did a good job.

cjsdowg posted...

This pain is black because no one cared about it.

That doesn't make any sense.

cjsdowg posted...

Finn pain and injuries was mocked over and over in the movie.

No it wasn't.

Would it have been if Finn punched Rose in the face ? I mean pain is funny right?

This is not a real scene in the movie. You made it up.

cjsdowg posted...

It is not a nitpick. RJ threw almost everything set up that JJ gave him away. People are waiting to see what happens to Finn. He makes it a joke, people have been waiting 30 years to see Luke old a light saber once more. It is turned into a joke.

I am so not going to justify any of those lousy meme criticisms.

---

what a stupid take and to think this guy is a director

if Snoke was uninteresting, he wouldn't have been in the first movie

why did Kylo need a mentor on the dark side? he didn't.

Obviously it was setup and Rian was to dumb to figure it out.

Basically if the point in this trilogy was Kylo, he should have turned to the dark side himself.

Every Jedi has that potential.

And, he basically did. Yet Snoke exists. lmao

What a mess.

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

You haven't pointed out how the movie treated him worse, you just said stuff and went "see!?". I do not see how it made him worse. And uh, he was obviously part of the main plot. That's not even debatable. As for Rose; I like Rose, and the people making the movie clearly do too, so neither I or they are going to agree with your asessment at all. Its not a good faith criticism because its making assumptions. Suffice it to say, I also disagree with John Boyega. I think he did a good job.

Yes I clearly showed how Finn was treated worse. When Finn was recovering it was literally turned into a joke, he had a number of pratfalls, he was then in leaking bubble. When Kylo was recovering there was none of that , the moment was treated like it was heavy. And Finn was not in the main plot, he was on freaking side Quest.

No it wasn't.

Out out coma prat fall plays for jokes.
Rose tasing him played for jokes.
Him getting tased for illegally parking played for jokes.
Him falling in animal waste , played for jokes.
Hell even when first woke up he hit his head, played a joke.
And that is not even getting into his emotional pain.

This is not a real scene in the movie. You made it up.

Getting tased so hard you fly 5 feet back what happen to Finn , is far worse than that.


---

Snoke was the leader of the new empire, turned Kylo to the dark side and implied to have played a significant hand in the destruction of Luke's Jedi Academy and his subsequent self exile. On top of possessing raw power in the force comparable to no one we've seen except palpatine himself in all SW lore.

Meanwhile Kylos only significance is his relations with the OT cast ironically enough. If not for that, nobody would have given two shits about him once the mask came off.

---

I don't think it's fair to compare any character in the sequel trilogy to Kylo. He was played by a really good actor, is the main antagonist, and got the most development. Every character fell short of him in the sequels

---

The big problem with the last Jedi is that if everyone would have just done as they were damn well told then like 80% of the movie wouldnt exist.

---

uwnim posted...

The big problem with the last Jedi is that if everyone would have just done as they were damn well told then like 80% of the movie wouldnt exist.

Star Wars is like that though. If Anakin just chilled out 2/3rds of the saga wouldn't exist

uwnim posted...

The big problem with the last Jedi is that if everyone would have just done as they were damn well told then like 80% of the movie wouldnt exist.

so like if luke would have just listened to yoda instead of running off to get his hand cut off?

or if han just didn't go to lando?

or if the emperor set up his trap not where the death star 2 was

shit goes wrong is like every movie everywhere. Give me that over the bullshit in the rise of sky walker where a dagger that was made before the death star was even a thing that perfectly aligns with where the death star crashes and it's hulking mass to point to some super secret room if you hold it at just the right hill.

the "problem" with TLJ is disney has no balls and got scared if everything in the galaxy didn't revolve around palps and skywalker and people like you just let the first headline they read tell them what to think.

---

I didn't like TLJ at all, but in retrospect I do appreciate that Rian Johnson recognized that simply doing what fans wanted would have resulted in a movie like Rise of the Skywalker.

---

They tried to make him the mastermind villain, but he was uninteresting, and came off like a cheap Palpatine knockoff. I mean what kind of threatening villain wears a bathrobe lmao.

They tried to replace him with Kylo, but how would that work if you keep hinting a good side turn for him?

Then they had to literally bring old , previously more succesful villain back from the grave to save the whole thing.

I would've cared more about Snoke's origin if he was interesting, which he isn't, just like the "heros" of the story who failed to make as much of an impact on popular culture as characters from the previous trilogies did.

I mean would anyone care if it was baby Maz Kanata instead of Baby Yoda?
---

Honestly, I think it would have been a lot more interesting if Rey turned.

---

I Like Toast posted...

so like if luke would have just listened to yoda instead of running off to get his hand cut off?

or if han just didn't go to lando?

or if the emperor set up his trap not where the death star 2 was

shit goes wrong is like every movie everywhere. Give me that over the bullshit in the rise of sky walker where a dagger that was made before the death star was even a thing that perfectly aligns with where the death star crashes and it's hulking mass to point to some super secret room if you hold it at just the right hill.

the "problem" with TLJ is disney has no balls and got scared if everything in the galaxy didn't revolve around palps and skywalker and people like you just let the first headline they read tell them what to think.

I thought that while watching it, not cause some random worthless article told me to. The entire movie felt pointless. It was a bad movie, but in a different way than the previous movie was. Never saw rise of skywalker and have no interest in watching it due to both 7 and 8 being bad.

---

Just came here again to say that TLJ is still a great movie.

I feel I should just copy my support of Episode 8. Bullet points here we go.

- showing the consequences of failure for Luke. His foremost teachers both retreated from the universe for their failures so Luke does the same. Shows that the failures of his teachers and the Jedi Order in general still follow him. He is not infallible and that is awesome.

- showing Kylo Ren being a confused frightened young man with complex motivations was GREAT. Some people get annoyed by his scattered motivation but it is realistic. He is a kid who has been arguably failed by every single father figure he has ever had. Han left him and was kinda distant, Luke in a moment of weakness tried to KILL him, and Snoke used him. He is sick and tired of everyone fucking around with him so he hatches a plan to become the one making the decisions... but even in that he is terrified and wants someone to help him. He is a kid at heart who just wants someone to help him.

- speaking of Luke's other failure, it reflects the poor resistance to mental manipulation the Skywalker line has. Like his father, Luke is susceptible to mental manipulation. He was made to see darkness in Ben and acted in haste. Arguably it is the same mistake in the opposing ways. His father saw his mother's death and did not act in time. He saw his Padawan falling to the dark side and did not take the time to quiet his thoughts and mind. Both are being mentally manipulated by the Force.

- the way Luke chooses to become one with the force was AMAZING! Instead of going to fight a fight he couldn't possibly win and give the First Order the distinction of having killed the great Luke Skywalker, instead he faces off against Kylo Ren and many machines of war, is never even TOUCHED, and helps the Resistance to escape a certain death... and then disappears. He fucking CLOWNS them all! It was wonderful and a fitting end for Luke Skywalker.

- Snoke being basically a dark user of "some kind" is somewhat nebulous, but has they continued down the path of him not being a Sith and just using the Force to his own ends it would have opened up the Star Wars Universe in awesome ways. People using the Force to that level who don't fall into the Jedi/Sith dichotomy? That would have been awesome to explore.

- Rey being kinda a smart-ass hot head who didn't have patience for her teacher is a wonderful reflection of Luke when he was young.

The only stuff I felt that didn't hit the mark was the casino subplot and going down to that planet. Kantobyte was it? Even the whole Poe and General Holdo parts were alright to me. Holdo kinda holds it against Poe that he directly worked against the great Leia Organa and wants nothing to do with him beyond being a loyal part of the crew. We obviously sympathize with Poe as we know he has great intentions, but it does show that his views on winning the war does not account for people being there to help the rebuild.

---

Why is Finn waking up in a bubble suit a big deal. Han Solo waking up from Carbonite was played even more for laughs.

---

DarkRoast posted...

Honestly, I think it would have been a lot more interesting if Rey turned.

Agreed. Would have been interesting.

---

cjsdowg posted...

Yes I clearly showed how Finn was treated worse. When Finn was recovering it was literally turned into a joke, he had a number of pratfalls, he was then in leaking bubble. When Kylo was recovering there was none of that , the moment was treated like it was heavy. And Finn was not in the main plot, he was on freaking side Quest.

Pratfalls and leaking bubbles aren't bad things. I do not see why this is a bad thing. And Finn's thing is part of the main plot.
cjsdowg posted...

Out out coma prat fall plays for jokes.
Rose tasing him played for jokes.
Him getting tased for illegally parking played for jokes.
Him falling in animal waste , played for jokes.
Hell even when first woke up he hit his head, played a joke.
And that is not even getting into his emotional pain.

None of these are mockeries. They're just pratfalls. In fact, by this standard, Rey gets it far worse, because most of her shenanigans are st least partial mockeries on her naivete. Finn's emotional pain is never played for laughs.

cjsdowg posted...

Getting tased so hard you fly 5 feet back what happen to Finn , is far worse than that.

That is real though. The scene you made up is still not real.

---

my biggest issue with the PT is that the writers clearly didn't have a cohesive vision for the trilogy. one guy started things with all these ideas/threads then the next guy cherry picked what he liked and expanded there, while ignoring the rest, then the original guy came back.

just imagine if Disney invested the time in laying out a grand plan for Star Wars like they did with MCU. but no. they saw the $$ and just rushed that shit out ASAP because they knew it didn't matter what they did, it'd made billions of dollars. and they were right.

---

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

That is real though. The scene you made up is still not real.

That is literally what Rose did to him.

None of these are mockeries. They're just pratfalls. In fact, by this standard, Rey gets it far worse, because most of her shenanigans are st least partial mockeries on her naivete. Finn's emotional pain is never played for laughs.

Rose Mocks him and calls him a coward over and over. No one takes the time to see think about the situation from his side. He just broke away form slavery, the people who had stole him when he was kid. And he is treated like shit if fhe is not 100% ready to keep fighting in a war after he did more then most others.

Pratfalls and leaking bubbles aren't bad things. I do not see why this is a bad thing. And Finn's thing is part of the main plot.

He is not. Finn was listed by Disney as the lead male in TFA he was supporting in TLJ. And Finn has side story. Why would so many Finn fans and that actor himself think it was side quest if it wasn't.


---

Darmik posted...

Why is Finn waking up in a bubble suit a big deal. Han Solo waking up from Carbonite was played even more for laughs.

This is the why Kylo was treated when he was waking up.



This is how Finn was treated ..



Yeah funny how this "progessive" movie makes the black guy into the bumbling fool and people think it is just fine.


---

I actually got the vibe that Finn was the most relatable and believable character.

---

Finn was definitely one of the best and freshest parts of TFA

It really does feel like there was an effort to sideline him in favour of Poe, who was barely in TFA and was almost killed off. He doesn't seem to have a consistent characterization throughout the three films.

I think "splitting the party" in TLJ was a mistake. I know it's an ESB homage, but that didn't happen until the second act and that was after multiple years off screen together. It makes it seem like the writers are playing favourites, even if that's not necessarily what's happening.

---

Rey should have turned to the dark side. Kylo should have been redeemed and joined the rebels. Should have been good Kylo vs dark Rey in the end

---

Blightzkrieg posted...

Finn was definitely one of the best and freshest parts of TFA

It really does feel like there was an effort to sideline him in favour of Poe, who was barely in TFA and was almost killed off. He doesn't seem to have a consistent characterization throughout the three films.

I think "splitting the party" in TLJ was a mistake. I know it's an ESB homage, but that didn't happen until the second act and that was after multiple years off screen together. It makes it seem like the writers are playing favourites, even if that's not necessarily what's happening.

Poe really didn't get consistent characterization in any of the movies. I kind of got the vibe in the second film that they wanted to use him as a poster child for why sometimes you need strong central leadership and obedience in a military organization, which I think is a refreshing re-emphasis on traditional military tactics (you can't have every pilot be a roguish fly boy), however I couldn't help but feel like Poe was the only one who actually made any sense in that film. Finn mostly got sidelined by Rose, and it's not entirely clear why. Finn didn't have any kind of important lesson to learn from the previous film or from his actions up to that point.

Holdo's actions, while vindicated at the very end, would have made me just as suspicious of her intent as it was to Poe. The whole movie, I kept wondering if she was actually some kind of saboteur.

---

Poe's theme veered off from "you should have discipline and keep the bigger picture in mind" to "you should mindlessly obey your superiors", which is a horrendous message for an anti-fascist film to send.

---

Blightzkrieg posted...

Poe's theme veered off from "you should have discipline and keep the bigger picture in mind" to "you should mindlessly obey your superiors", which is a horrendous message for an anti-fascist film to send.

The only explanation I have for this issue is that TLJ didn't portray Holdo (to the audience, at least) nearly as well as it thought it did.

---