Current Events > Game Grumps drama (Dan Avidan accusations; repost)

(+) Yeah! (+)

A lot of this stuff is coming from rant grumps, which is to be taken very very lightly generally. Even as someone who absolutely hates game grumps and hasnt watched them in years, they are the psycho ex girlfriend stalker version of the parasocial relationship thing.

Still this is kind of an extension of stuff that has been goi by around about Dan for years, I.e. hes a big creepo that trawls his fan base for casual hookups and often lies to the girls to get it. Nothing Ive read sounds illegal so much as Dan continuing to be a total scumbag and the situation being massively inflated by the crazy people who watch every episode of a show they hate and make detailed lists about every word contained therein

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Rantgrumps is basically Kiwifarms but targeted at GG specifically. Hell, they straight up take most of their info from Kiwifarms. That said, Dan probably shouldn't give his number out to people he barely knows.

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mario2000 posted...

Rantgrumps is basically Kiwifarms but targeted at GG specifically. Hell, they straight up take most of their info from Kiwifarms. That said, Dan probably shouldn't give his number out to people he barely knows.

A man gives his number out to a woman he doesnt know in the hope of hooking up?

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what's the deal with sonic06 and why was what jontron said funny?

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berlyman101 posted...

what's the deal with sonic06 and why was what jontron said funny?

It was the first big angry rant on the show about the game they were playing.

Arin wont play it with Dan as it wouldnt be the same. Or something.

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berlyman101 posted...

what's the deal with sonic06 and why was what jontron said funny?

Originally the Game Grumps was Arin & Jon. Their last long project together was a let's play of the entirety of Sonic 06, which they largely used as a vehicle to make jokes and talk about their lives and funny stories. They got pretty far in, but it was cut short when Jon announced he was leaving. I think the official reason was so that he could better focus on the JonTronShow. Since the split, though, their relationship has appeared icy and there's speculation about whether there were other factors involved. There should be clips floating around of Jon being asked if they might go back to it and him making it clear that there would probably never be future collaboration between them.

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berlyman101 posted...

what's the deal with sonic06 and why was what jontron said funny?

Sonic 06 was arguably one of their most popular ongoing series when Jon was part of Game Grumps and it was never finished as Jon left before it could happen.

The joke is Jon's saying 'now that Dan's out, I'm in?'.
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FUCK JonTron

racist piece of shit!!!

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Dude gives off weird vibes
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totalnerdken posted...

Having sex with a fan is fine as long as they are of age and consent. The power dynamic is irrelevant because the power is purely social. It's not like a teacher or doctor.

Danny is known for enjoying casual sex and everyone around him is a fan. What is a boy to do?

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CoorsLight posted...

You don't befriend an 18 year old when you're like 35 unless you're either some immature weirdo or thinking about manipulating them for something (aka almost always sex). Legal I guess but it's sketchy as hell

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b9OLskiuLGQ

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Isn't he the guy that was involved with the projared situation?

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Hes old enough to be their dad. Hell. Some of their dads are probably younger than him.

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Damn this fool is 42 years old? Jesus
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im not 13 posted...

Isn't he the guy that was involved with the projared situation?

You might be thinking of Ross?

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Chicken posted...

Hes old enough to be their dad. Hell. Some of their dads are probably younger than him.

and this is new?

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Bass_X0 posted...

and this is new?

Just because something may have once been culturally acceptable doesn't mean the new generation will accept it

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So..he said hi to someone when they were 17. And then had sex with them at 22? How is that grooming?

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InhumaneRaider posted...

So..he said hi to someone when they were 17. And then had sex with them at 22? How is that grooming?

twitter cancel mob mentality.

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With the current information, I don't think this is a big deal. A dude in a somewhat popular band had sex with a groupie half his age. It makes him scummy, but I'm not surprised.
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Saying its grooming is an insult to the victims of actual grooming. A 22 year old consensually ****ing a guy is not the same as a 13 year old being targeted by a pedo

It's kinda pissing me off tbh

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Doe posted...

. Since the split, though, their relationship has appeared icy and there's speculation about whether there were other factors involved.

people like to speculate this but the same thing is true for a ton of people that jontron worked with when he got his career started, even before the race stuff. it seems like the simplest answer is just that he seems to have changed in some way or another over the years

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straight monster
needs cancelation

ect

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I don't follow grumps but even I know Dan is a known manwhore, so not surprising this kind of thing has come out.

So far what I'm seen it's just normal scummy, legal, man whore behavior.

This drama has been floating around for a while now. My understanding is that rantgrumps have been trying to make this magic happen for a while now, and having read through their glossary of grievances, I don't think the drama they're pushing is in good faith. Like, one of the things they hold against Game Grumps is a promotion Arin did for a Game Grumps book where he framed it as him being forced to promote his uncle's book, which he hated. When the time came around, the "uncle" was Arin in old man makeup, and people felt cheated because they had sympathized with the scenario he had painted before they knew it was a joke. That's up there with Dan being a child grooming pedophile on their list of grievances.

I will admit, using the promise of a long lost Tendy game to promote their own indie game was a shitty move, though. Game Grumps isn't above criticism or anything, but this particular subreddit seems determined to bring them down in one way or another, and they've been pretty fanatic in that respect. I don't trust this narrative coming from them.

I take issue with the allegations in one respect. The big lynchpin accusation that Dan has been grooming fans is that the accuser met him at a Grump event when she was 17, they had zero contact for four years, they met again at an NSP concert when she was 22 and that's when Dan gave her the groupie treatment. Given that there weren't sexual or romantic texts from when this girl was underage, or an extended dialogue implying sexual interest over the course of 4 years, and given that Dan wasn't manipulating underage girls into sex over the course of several years which would constitute grooming - I don't feel comfortable with this whole scenario based on just that.

With that being said - I do agree that as a popular content creator with a relative amount of fame, Dan has used his influence irresponsibly. It can be hard to date as a known quantity, because your popularity as a known quantity influences how people see you and treat you and that can lead to a degree of power over them that you might knowingly or unknowingly be leveraging against them. Whether Dan has a predilection for young girls and manipulates them into having sex with him, or if he views the situation as a groupie/rock star thing, or if he's simply approaching this from the angle of a regular dude getting a bit of ass - the fact that he's a popular personality, and people adore him on some level, gives him power over them. Whether he's conscious of that or not, whether that's something he "uses" for lack of a better term, doesn't change the fact that it's there and it can affect the people he interacts with.

An example that's stuck with me for years now is when a musician I like made friends with a younger fan who lived in his area. To the musician, this guy was just a cool kid and he liked going out to have drinks and chill with this guy - he was a good egg, and he saw him as a pal. From the fan's perception, however, he was being noticed by a role model and a hero - and the time they spent together meant a great deal more to the fan, to the point where he'd drop anything he had going on to spend time with the musician.

Eventually, this took a severe mental toll on the fan. He felt that he had been taken advantage of, that he couldn't say no to the musician and there was a pressure to perform in a way that would preserve the relationship he had with the musician. This had affected his personal life and his mental health, and it led to him trying to out this musician as an abuser.

The musician simply saw the fan as a buddy. He wasn't trying to take advantage of him, he liked chilling with fans and he thought this guy was cool. But despite his intentions, the time he spent with this fan led to a great deal of pressure being put on them, and it caused a very real degree of harm to that person. The musician was innocent, he wasn't trying to be a creep or to hurt anyone - but the imbalance of power between himself and a fan who adored the figure and the art he made led to that fan feeling a degree of pressure and obligation that negatively affected the fan's life. That imbalance exists, and it hurts people whether the more popular person intends for that to be the case or not.

A more immediate and negative example of popularity and relative fame resulting in popular personalities leveraging their power over fans is the rampant pedophile problem in the Smash Bros. community. Even a handful of specialised chuds with no wider appeal outside of playing a kid's game on YouTube was able to use the connections and name recognition they got from their YouTube videos to target and molest/rape children. And that's just niche YouTubers who've been able to use the small amount of power their relative fame afforded them to get away with that.

When Quinton Flynn was revealed to have preyed on his young female fans for sex, regardless of if there was a wider context or not, the above story about the musician would have applied at a baseline. But more evidence came out of him grooming multiple women with his character voices and reputation as a voice actor, by him putting other women down and asserting that he loved the victims and only the victims, and it became clear that he was a habitual abuser with a predilection for young women who were his fans.

I don't think Dan is as much of a creep as Quinton Flynn. But I do think he leverages his fame in an attempt to fuck around and ghost women, and I think it's pretty scuzzy. This is something that Dan is gonna have to address, and I think that a part of that should involve Dan realising the responsibility that comes from him being a prominent public figure. Because between Game Grumps and Ninja Sex Party, a lot of people have an affection for him. He has fame, and people want to see him and be around him because of that fame. And because of that, there needs to be a degree of separation between the persona and the real person.

I want to assume the best of Dan, but even if he's not grooming underage fans - which I don't believe he's doing - the fact remains that he uses his fame to have sex with women and ghost them. Unless there's a clear understanding between both parties that whatever sexual content they get up to is a one-off thing between consenting adults - and unless that is explicitly clear to intuit - this is an issue of a public figure abusing their position for sex. Anything less than that is a grey area at best, and it does have an affect on the people Dan meets with. It's not a good look.

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MrMallard posted...

This drama has been floating around for a while now. My understanding is that rantgrumps have been trying to make this magic happen for a while now, and having read through their glossary of grievances, I don't think the drama they're pushing is in good faith. Like, one of the things they hold against Game Grumps is a promotion Arin did for a Game Grumps book where he framed it as him being forced to promote his uncle's book, which he hated. When the time came around, the "uncle" was Arin in old man makeup, and people felt cheated because they had sympathized with the scenario he had painted before they knew it was a joke. That's up there with Dan being a child grooming pedophile on their list of grievances.

I will admit, using the promise of a long lost Tendy game to promote their own indie game was a shitty move, though. Game Grumps isn't above criticism or anything, but this particular subreddit seems determined to bring them down in one way or another, and they've been pretty fanatic in that respect. I don't trust this narrative coming from them.

I take issue with the allegations in one respect. The big lynchpin accusation that Dan has been grooming fans is that the accuser met him at a Grump event when she was 17, they had zero contact for four years, they met again at an NSP concert when she was 22 and that's when Dan gave her the groupie treatment. Given that there weren't sexual or romantic texts from when this girl was underage, or an extended dialogue implying sexual interest over the course of 4 years, and given that Dan wasn't manipulating underage girls into sex over the course of several years which would constitute grooming - I don't feel comfortable with this whole scenario based on just that.

With that being said - I do agree that as a popular content creator with a relative amount of fame, Dan has used his influence irresponsibly. It can be hard to date as a known quantity, because your popularity as a known quantity influences how people see you and treat you and that can lead to a degree of power over them that you might knowingly or unknowingly be leveraging against them. Whether Dan has a predilection for young girls and manipulates them into having sex with him, or if he views the situation as a groupie/rock star thing, or if he's simply approaching this from the angle of a regular dude getting a bit of ass - the fact that he's a popular personality, and people adore him on some level, gives him power over them. Whether he's conscious of that or not, whether that's something he "uses" for lack of a better term, doesn't change the fact that it's there and it can affect the people he interacts with.

An example that's stuck with me for years now is when a musician I like made friends with a younger fan who lived in his area. To the musician, this guy was just a cool kid and he liked going out to have drinks and chill with this guy - he was a good egg, and he saw him as a pal. From the fan's perception, however, he was being noticed by a role model and a hero - and the time they spent together meant a great deal more to the fan, to the point where he'd drop anything he had going on to spend time with the musician.

Eventually, this took a severe mental toll on the fan. He felt that he had been taken advantage of, that he couldn't say no to the musician and there was a pressure to perform in a way that would preserve the relationship he had with the musician. This had affected his personal life and his mental health, and it led to him trying to out this musician as an abuser.

The musician simply saw the fan as a buddy. He wasn't trying to take advantage of him, he liked chilling with fans and he thought this guy was cool. But despite his intentions, the time he spent with this fan led to a great deal of pressure being put on them, and it caused a very real degree of harm to that person. The musician was innocent, he wasn't trying to be a creep or to hurt anyone - but the imbalance of power between himself and a fan who adored the figure and the art he made led to that fan feeling a degree of pressure and obligation that negatively affected the fan's life. That imbalance exists, and it hurts people whether the more popular person intends for that to be the case or not.

A more immediate and negative example of popularity and relative fame resulting in popular personalities leveraging their power over fans is the rampant pedophile problem in the Smash Bros. community. Even a handful of specialised chuds with no wider appeal outside of playing a kid's game on YouTube was able to use the connections and name recognition they got from their YouTube videos to target and molest/rape children. And that's just niche YouTubers who've been able to use the small amount of power their relative fame afforded them to get away with that.

When Quinton Flynn was revealed to have preyed on his young female fans for sex, regardless of if there was a wider context or not, the above story about the musician would have applied at a baseline. But more evidence came out of him grooming multiple women with his character voices and reputation as a voice actor, by him putting other women down and asserting that he loved the victims and only the victims, and it became clear that he was a habitual abuser with a predilection for young women who were his fans.

I don't think Dan is as much of a creep as Quinton Flynn. But I do think he leverages his fame in an attempt to fuck around and ghost women, and I think it's pretty scuzzy. This is something that Dan is gonna have to address, and I think that a part of that should involve Dan realising the responsibility that comes from him being a prominent public figure. Because between Game Grumps and Ninja Sex Party, a lot of people have an affection for him. He has fame, and people want to see him and be around him because of that fame. And because of that, there needs to be a degree of separation between the persona and the real person.

I want to assume the best of Dan, but even if he's not grooming underage fans - which I don't believe he's doing - the fact remains that he uses his fame to have sex with women and ghost them. Unless there's a clear understanding between both parties that whatever sexual content they get up to is a one-off thing between consenting adults - and unless that is explicitly clear to intuit - this is an issue of a public figure abusing their position for sex. Anything less than that is a grey area at best, and it does have an affect on the people Dan meets with. It's not a good look.

Disregarding rant grumps trying to turn it into something beyond what it is as usual, I dont think Ive ever heard a story involving Dan and women that hadnt made him sound like a total scumbag going back even like two or three years. Im sure he can be a nice person outside of that but there are way to many recitations of him lying to women for casual sex to make me think hes going to change anytime soon unless hes forced to.

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That's a fair point. I'm not that tuned into the Game Grumps rumor mill, I got all that out of my system when Jon left - but yeah, that's not a good sign.

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I've seen this idea of a power dynamic between celebrities and their fans a lot, but I just don't fucking get it. This wasn't someone's boss hitting on them and making them think a pay raise depends on their response. Dan makes dumb songs and watches someone else play video games for a living. The only power he had over this woman was power she gave him.
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Huge fan of Dan and NSP, but I feel I am capable of looking at this critically and it seems like a witch hunt to me.

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pegusus123456 posted...

I've seen this idea of a power dynamic between celebrities and their fans a lot, but I just don't fucking get it. This wasn't someone's boss hitting on them and making them think a pay raise depends on their response. Dan makes dumb songs and watches someone else play video games for a living. The only power he had over this woman was power she gave him.

I gave an example in my long-ass wall of text about a different situation. I'll cut what I can to make it more accessible:

ultimate reaver posted...

An example that's stuck with me for years now is when a musician I like made friends with a younger fan who lived in his area. To the musician, this guy was just a cool kid and he liked going out to have drinks and chill with this guy. From the fan's perception, however, he was being noticed by a role model and a hero - the time they spent together meant a great deal more to the fan.

Eventually, this took a severe mental toll on the fan. He felt that he couldn't say no to the musician and there was a pressure to perform in a way that would preserve the relationship he had with the musician.

The musician simply saw the fan as a buddy. He wasn't trying to take advantage of him, he liked chilling with fans and he thought this guy was cool. But despite his intentions, the time he spent with this fan led to a great deal of pressure being put on them, and it caused a very real degree of harm to that person.

The musician was innocent- he wasn't trying to be a creep or to hurt anyone. but the imbalance of power between them led to that fan feeling a degree of pressure and obligation to the musician that negatively affected the fan's life.

That imbalance exists, and it hurts people whether the more popular person intends for that to be the case or not.

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I feel like your example is arguing in favor of me though. The musician is the victim in that situation. He had what he thought was a friend who then turned around and accused him of being an abuser. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the fan.

You're saying celebrities have to police their relationships so other grown adults don't put themselves into an unhealthy power dynamic. That's bologna. There comes a time where you have to take responsibility for your own actions. With the available information, I think that's the case here.
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pegusus123456 posted...

I feel like your example is arguing in favor of me though. The musician is the victim in that situation. He had what he thought was a friend who then turned around and accused him of being an abuser. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the fan.

You're saying celebrities have to police their relationships so other grown adults don't put themselves into an unhealthy power dynamic. That's bologna. There comes a time where you have to take responsibility for your own actions. With the available information, I think that's the case here.

It isn't either person's fault, there was no malice. Yet somebody still got hurt. And that pattern of harm is seen repeated and repeated across venues, mediums, and countries. When we identify such a pattern, it is a good idea to explore how to prevent it.

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How can someone like Dan Avidan have groupies?

Jesus Fucking Christ.

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Waiter, there seems to be a mistake. I ordered a burger, but theres nothing here.

On a side note, I hope to God Jontron and Arin dont make up. I hate the early days of GG because Jon just acts like a second Arin, so the show is just two loud, obnoxious scream-babbling idiots with no Dan to chill things out.

Kami_no_Kami posted...

Waiter, there seems to be a mistake. I ordered a burger, but theres nothing here.

On a side note, I hope to God Jontron and Arin dont make up. I hate the early days of GG because Jon just acts like a second Arin, so the show is just two loud, obnoxious scream-babbling idiots with no Dan to chill things out.

I think that was the best part, personally. They played off each other really well, and the higher energy levels meant less 'chill' time. I'm fine with chill videos, don't get me wrong, but if I'm watching a let's play, I wanna have more focus on the commentary than just the gameplay. If I want gameplay, there's bound to be a no-commentary run out there.
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Jontron was crazy and fun like that in early game grumps but as the show went on it seemed less and less like he wanted to be there and mainly just talked about random stuff and made funny noises while occasionally remembering the game was there

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ultimate reaver posted...

Jontron was crazy and fun like that in early game grumps but as the show went on it seemed less and less like he wanted to be there and mainly just talked about random stuff and made funny noises while occasionally remembering the game was there

I have to agree there. I remember they played a racing game, I can't remember the name, and fuck me I felt so bored. Towards the end, it wouldn't surprise me if Jon and Arin just didn't get along and were trying to force their way through every game.

In any case, their Sonic 06 videos always were good. So...that's something. But early Grumps >>>> anything else. Never enjoyed any Dan stuff. I did like Ross a ton, though. And Barry. Iirc they did a lot of stuff together?
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this is basically grooming and is a crime

Its grooming due to the power dynamic with him and his fans. Especially the age difference, its not the worst case, but its really scummy

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Edit: Doe hit the nail on the head. I just rambled at length because I'm incapable of brevity, lol. I just run my mouth until I'm confident that somewhere in there, I made the point I wanted to make.

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I feel like Arin and Jon were too frantic, like they had to fill every second and make lots of loud noises or goofy voices at all times. It reminded me of old youtube babblers like the annoying orange/Lucas Cruikshank/Pewdiepie that I could never get into. I prefer the funny man/straight man combo we have now, but to each their own.

That said, theyre still a far cry from what SBFP was. That one still stings.

Kami_no_Kami posted...

I feel like Arin and Jon were too frantic, like they had to fill every second and make lots of loud noises or goofy voices at all times. It reminded me of old youtube babblers like the annoying orange/Lucas Cruikshank/Pewdiepie that I could never get into. I prefer the funny man/straight man combo we have now, but to each their own.

That said, theyre still a far cry from what SBFP was. That one still stings.

I loved Matt and Pat. :(

Whenever there was a David Cage release, their channel was the first place I'd go. Or Silent Hill.
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Kami_no_Kami posted...

That said, theyre still a far cry from what SBFP was. That one still stings.

SBFP kinda petered out for me towards the end, but certain games like the David Cage ones, were still gold. I still listen to Pat and Woolie's podcast but otherwise I don't really follow any of them anymore >_>

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SBFP is so fractured and out of their element these days its depressing. Pat has probably made the best effort at being a solo streamer, but Woolie is really hit or miss, Matt's scripted videos blow and Liam is Liam and I dont think even does anything anymore

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I like Matt's what happened videos myself, but the rest of his content bores me.
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I still don't get the insistence of "grooming" based on what's been put out there. The exchanges that have been posted online do not demonstrate that Dan was preying on this person and waiting for them to come of age so he could get some from her. If future evidence comes out to show that, then fine, but I just don't see how anyone can look at the posted screen grabs and say that that's definitely grooming.

To me, "grooming" implies malicious predatory behavior, that you're specifically preying on someone and keeping them around until they're legal age. For all we know (and as far as it appears now), they had a handful of non-sexual exchanges around the time she was turning 18, then later slept together when she was 22. Again, if more evidence comes out that shows he was preying on her as a minor so he could eventually get with her, then sure, that's grooming. But I just don't see how the evidence shows that right now.

As far as Dan's "extra curricular activities" with women, I mean, eh, it's not the nicest thing, but I still think it's kind of a stretch to say this makes him a disgusting scum bag. Plenty of normal people sleep around, lie to get sex, and drift away after they got what they wanted. Again, it's not "nice", but if that makes someone a "disgusting scum bag", then quite a lot of people in the world are also disgusting scum bags. That's not really uncommon behavior. People are human, people want sex. Most people aren't "perfect gentleman" about it.

And "groupie" culture has always been a thing, anyway. No disrespect to any victims, but honestly, I just don't really get what they expect in that scenario. If you're offering yourself up to a traveling musician who's just passing through your town on a tour, what do you really think/ expect is going to happen?

Thus far, I don't see anything here as predatory behavior. To me, "grooming" is a much more premeditated thing, and nothing that's out there demonstrates that. So far, all this shows is that Dan has slept around and "hasn't called them back". Which, okay, so that makes him like most other regular dudes out there.

ultimate reaver posted...

SBFP is so fractured and out of their element these days its depressing. Pat has probably made the best effort at being a solo streamer, but Woolie is really hit or miss, Matt's scripted videos blow and Liam is Liam and I dont think even does anything anymore

I checked and Liam hasn't uploaded anything in 5 months >_>

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MRW1215 posted...

Which, okay, so that makes him like most other regular dudes out there.

Most other regular dudes sleep with girls and don't call back? Damn, man, what world am I living in?
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