Current Events > Just played the entire Dark Souls trilogy... time for some BOSS RANKINGS!

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drumroll

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8 - Twin Princes (DS3)


"Oh, dear. Another dogged contender... Welcome, unkindled one. Purloiner of cinders. Mind you, the mantle of Lord interests me none. The Firelinking curse, the legacy of Lords -- let it all fade into nothing. You've done quite enough, now have your rest."
...

Your long quest throughout Dark Souls 3 to find the revived Lords of Cinder and return them to their thrones finally comes to an end with a showdown with the two people responsible for this contingency plan being necessary in the first place, the twin princes, Lothric and Lorian. These two are fascinating characters to begin with -- Lothric was born to be a fire-linking knight but turned out to be a frail and sickly boy, and Lorian was a demon-slaying hero who sacrificed his own well-being to take on some of his younger brother's curse. Under the tutelage of a scholar who doubted the purpose of linking the fire, the brothers saw the futility of a dying world in a flailing cycle and opted to simply wait out the end of times together. While this ostensibly led to the weebly-wobbly timey-wimey hijinks of Dark Souls 3 via the desperate revival of the other Lords and their kingdoms, mashed together through time and space, and sent things careening towards an apocalypse event... can you really blame them? You could make the argument that linking the fire to buy a little more time is perhaps noble, but there is just as much validity to it being an increasingly useless delay of the inevitable, with much pain and suffering induced along the way. This in and of itself makes Lothric and Lorian a fascinating part of Souls lore, made all the juicier if you connect the dots between "the first scholar," who doubted the linking of the fire and "Scholar of the First Sin," Aldia, who may be implicated in all this either directly (if he is somehow the scholar in question himself) or indirectly (if this "first scholar" was inspired by him).

All that being said, lore intrigue is far from the only thing the Twin Princes fight has going for it. Right from the jump, Lorian puts you on your heels with his teleportation abilities and absolutely crushing blows from his flaming blade. He is almost constantly warping behind you to ruin your day, and if he's not doing that, he's warping across the room entirely, forcing you to locate him and get ready to dodge before his ranged beam attack annihilates most, if not all, of your health. He can come crashing down on you from above, he can strike at basically any speed or distance, he can do almost anything he wants. If Lorian is this potent of a fighter without functioning legs, it is little surprise that he was able to take down the Demon Prince -- though I best cut myself off there before we end up back in the lore rabbit hole.

Of course, that's only half the fight. Once you kill Lorian, Lothric himself joins the fray, resurrecting his brother, who repays him by giving him the most demented piggyback-ride in recorded history. Not only do you have to deal with all of Lorian's attacks from before, but Lothric will chime in with homing missiles and occasional laser beams that will take a chunk out of your health and leave you susceptible to punishment from the elder brother. Even once you get Lorian down once again, you've got very limited time to bring the pain to Lothric before the cycle begins anew. The only way to shorten the fight substantially is to try to strike at Lothric while he is still on the back of an active Lorian, which requires getting behind Lorian and being even choosier about when and where you strike than before. All this adds up to an exceptionally unique and very satisfyingly challenging boss fight.

Whether you're a lore junkie or someone who has never read an item description in their lives, the Twin Princes have something to love, even as they make you tear your hair out.

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New page, new recap. 92-8:

Centipede Demon
Royal Rat Vanguard
Demon Firesage
Prowling Magus & Congregation
Pinwheel
Belfry Gargoyles
Twin Dragonriders
The Gank Squad
Royal Rat Authority
Blue Smelter Demon
Dragonrider
Ruin Sentinels
Covetous Demon
Mytha, the Baneful Queen
Scorpioness Najka
Giant Lord
Iron Golem
The Bed of Chaos
Lud & Zallen, the Kings Pets
Skeleton Lords
Old Dragonslayer
Deacons of the Deep
Halflight, Spear of the Church
The Last Giant
Moonlight Butterfly
The Pursuer
Flexile Sentry
The Rotten
Guardian Dragon
Demon of Song
Ancient Dragon
Nashandra
The Lost Sinner
Bell Gargoyles
Throne Defender & Throne Watcher
Ancient Wyvern
Looking Glass Knight
Vendrick
Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin
Asylum Demon
Stray Demon
Capra Demon
Taurus Demon
Ceaseless Discharge
Seath the Scaleless
Nito
Crystal Sage
Old Iron King
Yhorm the Giant
Elana, the Squalid Queen
The Dukes Dear Freja
Velstadt, the Royal Aegis
Crossbreed Priscilla
Sanctuary Guardian
Executioners Chariot
Curse-Rotted Greatwood
Gravetender Greatwolf
Dark Sun Gwyndolin
High Lord Wolnir
Gaping Dragon
Chaos Witch Quelaag
Iudex Gundyr
Smelter Demon
Vordt of the Boreal Valley
Aava, the Kings Pet
Old Demon King
Darklurker
Black Dragon Kalameet
Dragonslayer Armor
Oceiros, the Consumed King
Aldrich, Devourer of Gods
Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon
Demon Prince
Great Grey Wolf Sif
Four Kings
Dancer of the Boreal Valley
Sir Alonne
Soul of Cinder
Burnt Ivory King
Ornstein & Smough
Manus, Father of the Abyss
Fume Knight
Darkeater Midir
Abyss Watchers
Twin Princes

And the remaining Top 7, in alphabetical order...

Champion Gundyr (DS3)
Gwyn, Lord of Cinder (DS1)
Knight Artorias (DS1 - Artorias of the Abyss)
Nameless King (DS3)
Pontiff Sulyvahn (DS3)
Sister Friede (DS3 - Ashes of Ariandel)
Slave Knight Gael (DS3 - The Ringed City)

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If this topic has taught me anything its that despite the Vaati videos I have NO ideas whats going on in this series.

The Princes theme is one of the best bits of music in the series I feel.

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Yeah this list is pretty good

Xerun posted...

If this topic has taught me anything its that despite the Vaati videos I have NO ideas whats going on in this series.

In fairness, the vast majority of what I've said on lore matters comes from Vaati. I've just been binging a lot of his material lately as I played.

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Does everyone typically fight the Twin Princes locked on or not? I find that fighting locked on makes the fight easier since it tracks Lorian as he teleports

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Im gonna have to skip reading out on a majority of these last ten unfortunately. I never got around to finishing Dark Souls 3, its not that I didnt like it, just other stuff came up around the time it came out so I never finished it. I think I got all the way up to Dancer of the Boreal Valley, and maybe slightly after that. I remember traversing a poison swamp kind of area.

Hoping to start a replay of the series this year (for the tenth anniversary of DaS 1 for sure), and Ill get around to finishing it then. I might copy your write ups in a google doc or something so I can look back at the ones I missed, since I really enjoyed reading the rest.

Twin Princes battle music should have been this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wsdy_rct6uo

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Does everyone typically fight the Twin Princes locked on or not? I find that fighting locked on makes the fight easier since it tracks Lorian as he teleports

I fought him locked on, yeah.

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DavidZ2844 posted...

Im gonna have to skip reading out on a majority of these last ten unfortunately. I never got around to finishing Dark Souls 3, its not that I didnt like it, just other stuff came up around the time it came out so I never finished it. I think I got all the way up to Dancer of the Boreal Valley, and maybe slightly after that. I remember traversing a poison swamp kind of area.

Hoping to start a replay of the series this year (for the tenth anniversary of DaS 1 for sure), and Ill get around to finishing it then. I might copy your write ups in a google doc or something so I can look back at the ones I missed, since I really enjoyed reading the rest.

@DavidZ2844 im actually working on a Google doc version of this for easier sharing on Reddit and other sites. Ill post it when Im done

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I always took Sulyvahn to be the scholar that whispered in Lothrics ear and had him surrender the linking of the flame. Never considered Aldia, thats interesting.

CapnMuffin posted...

I always took Sulyvahn to be the scholar that whispered in Lothrics ear and had him surrender the linking of the flame. Never considered Aldia, thats interesting.

Ive heard that before, but as far as I saw, there is nothing linking Sulyvahn to being a scholar or having any particular disdain for the linking of the fire, so that didnt quite click for me. Aldia, meanwhile, is both known as a scholar and is VERY keen on cycle-breaking. Of course, there is that little issue where Aldia is giant deformed flaming tree head, which could complicate things.

Alternatively, maybe rather than Aldia himself, the Scholar could feasibly be the Bearer of the Curse, after the SotfS ending where the Bearer rejects the choice and leaves with Aldia to discover whatever they may discover. Maybe the Bearer goes on to be that first scholar, etc. Lots of possible takes, but I personally think theres a tie to Aldia there. Sulyvahn is mentioned by name all over the place, so referring to him as a nameless scholar would be odd IMO.

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Blackstar110 posted...

@DavidZ2844 im actually working on a Google doc version of this for easier sharing on Reddit and other sites. Ill post it when Im done

Awesome thanks man, would be great

I'll try to do an entry later on today, otherwise I'll get back to this early next week

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Replaying Dark Souls, and I died to the fuckin' Moonlight Butterfly. I don't think I've ever done that before, and I have no idea how it happened.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Replaying Dark Souls, and I died to the fuckin' Moonlight Butterfly. I don't think I've ever done that before, and I have no idea how it happened.

Blame the lag and poor hit boxes like a true Souls player

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Replaying Dark Souls, and I died to the fuckin' Moonlight Butterfly. I don't think I've ever done that before, and I have no idea how it happened.

I got obliterated because I went to Darkroot Garden first thing after killing the Bell Gargoyles. I just didn't have the HP to tank any of the attacks.

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Well get one today! Sorry for the weekend off, had a lot on my plate

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Replaying Dark Souls, and I died to the fuckin' Moonlight Butterfly. I don't think I've ever done that before, and I have no idea how it happened.

That things magic hits hard!

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Shred really is shamelessly drawing this topic out huh

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Twin Princes at #8....

I will accept that. you may continue I have an unhealthy obsession with this boss, don't even try to understand my twisted psyche

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I'm a few hours into Dark Souls Remastered.
The bosses are a lot easier than I remembered.

Also, this game has significantly better level design than Dark Souls 2 Sotfs.

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need the rest of the rankings :(.
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KINDERFELD posted...

I'm a few hours into Dark Souls Remastered.
The bosses are a lot easier than I remembered.

Also, this game has significantly better level design than Dark Souls 2 Sotfs.

thank you i agree

the targeting is better too

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KINDERFELD posted...

I'm a few hours into Dark Souls Remastered.
The bosses are a lot easier than I remembered.

Also, this game has significantly better level design than Dark Souls 2 Sotfs.

Ermac posted...

thank you i agree

the targeting is better too

I agree, but Dark Souls 2 has a much better fluidity and overall motion to it. Dark Souls 1 feels a lot more janky than 2, and I really like the style of animation/smoothness in DkS 2.

That being said, I still think DkS 1 is both the best and my personal favorite of the whole franchise, and easily in my top 5 games of all time.

The level design and enemy placement is so far better in DS1 that it makes going straight into DS2:SotFS very difficult. Once you get a little ways in to adjust (and you get enough health to make the Effigy mechanic less of a hurdle), the game still has a lot of good stuff in it, but yeah.

And actually, for the above post, I prefer the weightiness of DS1. DS3 has "fluidity and motion." DS2 feels a little bit like you're on skates, imo.

ALSO, DRUMROLL

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Blackstar110 posted...

The level design and enemy placement is so far better in DS1 that it makes going straight into DS2:SotFS very difficult. Once you get a little ways in to adjust (and you get enough health to make the Effigy mechanic less of a hurdle), the game still has a lot of good stuff in it, but yeah.

And actually, for the above post, I prefer the weightiness of DS1. DS3 has "fluidity and motion." DS2 feels a little bit like you're on skates, imo.

ALSO, DRUMROLL

I agree. At the start of DS1, I kept expecting DS2 kinda slippery movement. Took me 2 bosses to adjust.


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Slippery movement is great, dont hate on Ice Rink Souls smh

Im guessing Sulyvahn or Gundyr next. Probably Gundyr.

7 - Gwyn, Lord of Cinder (DS1)


"Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark. Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans, and the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them, Lord Gwyn resisted the course of nature. By sacrificing himself to link the fire, and commanding his children to shepherd the humans, Gwyn has blurred your past, to prevent the birth of the Dark Lord."
...

Discoverer of the Lord Soul. Eradicator of the everlasting dragons. Subjugator of humanity. Perpetrator of the First Sin. Linker of the Flame. Gwyn is such a key figure in the Dark Souls mythos that attempting to do justice to his role in a short writeup is nigh impossible. Not only can everything that has happened in Dark Souls by the time you face him be traced back to Gwyn, everything that happens in Dark Souls 2 and 3 can as well, despite him being long dead. His fear of the passing of the Age of Fire and unnatural repression of the ages threw the world into a perpetuating loop of madness that only became less and less stable, more and more untethered from tangible time and space. The linear passage of time became more like a loop, the loop became more like a spiral, and we're all along for the ride down the drain that eventually drags the Souls world to the Dreg Heap and the wastes that host the Ashen One's fateful clash with a slave knight. It is a fascinating moral question whether Gwyn's actions were at all justifiable. He is clearly a selfish and self-obsessed man -- can you even justify killing the Everlasting Dragons if you're simply going to attempt to install an "everlasting" age of your own? -- but we've seen enough of the Abyss to at least understand that his fears of an Age of Dark were not without merit. All these years later, lore junkies remain fascinated by Gwyn.

What makes him so memorable, though, is that when you do finally clash with him, he's not a thundering Zeus clone as you expected, hurling lightning bolts from on high. He's gone hollow. He's not awe-inspiring or magnificent, he's a shell of a once great being clinging to the fading embers of his fire. Most powerfully in terms of how he is presented, there is no cutscene, no dialogue, no boasting or bragging, and no bombastic score. He simply does what he feels he must; defends the fire from this intruder as the iconic, haunting piano score accompanies what is a rather tragic and dictionary-definition pathetic duel. It makes Gwyn a standout, and it is the fight that originally sealed Dark Souls in my mind as truly, absolutely special. I wasn't particularly versed on any lore during my first playthrough (who is?), but there is an unspoken, non-verbal communication of the gravity of the situation. Games like Hollow Knight wear the influence of this encounter on their sleeves as well in their own climactic battles. To this day, it gives me chills.

The only thing keeping Gwyn tethered at #7 instead of climbing into the top five is that mechanically, he has a great moveset and provides a good challenge (if you haven't mastered the parry), but we're getting into the true master-classes of combat design that FromSoft only got better at with time. Additionally, "he's fun if you don't parry" is a rather notable black mark, given that if you HAVE gotten that down, he's a total joke of a fight and can even be looped into the same telegraphed attack over and over until death. It doesn't ruin him, but it does keep him out of the tip-top fights.

All told, as I said, Gwyn's fight elevated Dark Souls from "I'm having a blast with this" to "I think this was a top five game ever for me," and unlike the First Flame, my appreciation hasn't faded with time.

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Obligatory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB6sOhQan9Y

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The lack of fanfare for Gwyn is the best part, it's just sort of sad.

MorganTJ posted...

The lack of fanfare for Gwyn is the best part, it's just sort of sad.

100%. If he had big trumpets and a "mwahahaha, you've come so far only to fail!" cutscene, his fight would not be good enough to carry him this high.

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I think Gwyn might be just a tad too aggressive. It's hard to find healing windows, which makes the temptation to parry even stronger. It's really hard (for me, at least) to resist the urge.

Now that I think about it, can any other boss be parried, or just him? I can't think of any others offhand.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

I think Gwyn might be just a tad too aggressive. It's hard to find healing windows, which makes the temptation to parry even stronger. It's really hard (for me, at least) to resist the urge.

Now that I think about it, can any other boss be parried, or just him? I can't think of any others offhand.

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure Ruin Sentinels can

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

I think Gwyn might be just a tad too aggressive. It's hard to find healing windows, which makes the temptation to parry even stronger. It's really hard (for me, at least) to resist the urge.

Now that I think about it, can any other boss be parried, or just him? I can't think of any others offhand.

I think on NG, he's very fun and well-paced to not need to parry/riposte. On NG+ when I was getting my platinum, I essentially had to. I'm sure it's technically doable, but it felt impossible without it.

Pretty confident Gwyn is the only DS1 boss that can be riposted at least.

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Zodd3224 posted...

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure Ruin Sentinels can

Oh, I just meant in DS1. Sorry for the confusion. I know there are a lot in DS2 and 3.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Oh, I just meant in DS1. Sorry for the confusion. I know there are a lot in DS2 and 3.

Too bad you can't parry Bed of Chaos

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Parry it right out of the game

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Parry it right out of the game

I'm actually glad it exists. It's so terrible it's pretty memorable. Fun to lament about with others who had to endure it.

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Id like to parry Dragon God

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Oh, I just meant in DS1. Sorry for the confusion. I know there are a lot in DS2 and 3.

i'm almost 100% certain Gwyn is the only boss you can parry in DS1

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TheGreatEscape posted...

i'm almost 100% certain Gwyn is the only boss you can parry in DS1

Which is an interesting choice, isnt it? I imagine it was done for lore reasons, to show how far he had fallen to being basically on your tier as a hollow, but unfortunately its pretty unremarkable mechanically.

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Six left. Fume Knight topped off DS2s offerings at #11. DS1 only has Artorias left. The other five are DS3.

Another entry in a couple hours.

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Blackstar110 posted...

TheGreatEscape posted...

i'm almost 100% certain Gwyn is the only boss you can parry in DS1

Which is an interesting choice, isnt it? I imagine it was done for lore reasons, to show how far he had fallen to being basically on your tier as a hollow, but unfortunately its pretty unremarkable mechanically.

It's certainly an interesting thought, but I don't think it was done intentionally, since I remember reading that Miyazaki was disappointed that players were beating Gwyn with parry cheese when he was supposed to be a test of all your skills
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

It's certainly an interesting thought, but I don't think it was done intentionally, since I remember reading that Miyazaki was disappointed that players were beating Gwyn with parry cheese when he was supposed to be a test of all your skills

I mean, they HAVE to code that at some point right? Code that his attacks being able to be parried, so it has to be intentional somehow. Unless it was glitched, which I highly doubt it was, since his grab specifically isnt able to be parried which makes sense animation/physics wise.

DavidZ2844 posted...

I mean, they HAVE to code that at some point right? Code that his attacks being able to be parried, so it has to be intentional somehow. Unless it was glitched, which I highly doubt it was, since his grab specifically isnt able to be parried which makes sense animation/physics wise.

It might have been an oversight? Gwyn is closer to our size than the other humanoid bosses IIRC (unlike Ornstein and Artorias). His model might have been adapted from the PC/NPC model and corresponding code.

Idk, spitballing there.

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Im sure being able to parry him was intentional, but the fight being easy as hell if you can parry competently was not intentional.

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