Board 8 > How many of my team sport GOATs do you agree with?

(+) Yeah! (+)

let's see what people THINK

American Football - Tom Brady
Basketball - Michael Jordan
Football/Soccer - Lionel Messi
Baseball - Babe Ruth
Hockey - Wayne Gretzky

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Soccer/Baseball are debatable, but I don't care/know enough to form an opinion. The other three are pretty standard answers, but they're probably right.

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Jerry Rice

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I don't know enough about soccer to confirm the validity, but the rest check out. If you count steroid era guys in baseball though it might not be Babe Ruth anymore

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Talent pool was really watered down when Babe Ruth played.

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Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live. Fucking deal with it

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Eddv posted...

Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live. Fucking deal with it

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Lemieux
Rice
Jordan
Pele
Ruth


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Baseball is tough. There's not a lot of opportunity for any one player to affect team success that much. Like some mentioned Bonds could be the best ever and he won basically nothing in his career

Idk enough about soccer to say

The other 3 I agree with

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Messi I agree with. Don't really know enough about the others to comment, but I always thought Gretzky was a fairly safe pick for Hockey at least.
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Eddv posted...

Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live. Fucking deal with it

He cheated. Disqualified automatically.

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Is it really cheating though

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yes

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Even taking that out of it, I think Ruth's pitching puts him a step above

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MJ had more cultural influence but lebron is the GOAT

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Only one you got right was Gretzky

jcgamer107 posted...

Even taking that out of it, I think Ruth's pitching puts him a step above

Pitching was nowhere near what you are thinking of today.

Kureejii Lea posted...

Only one you got right was Gretzky

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Gretzky is an easy one, Jordan is right, Brady is probably what I'd say too. Don't know enough about soccer or baseball to have an opinion

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Eddv posted...

Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live. Fucking deal with it

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You could field a team of Baseball players not in the Hall that could beat a team of players in the Hall easily.

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jcgamer107 posted...

Even taking that out of it, I think Ruth's pitching puts him a step above

Its not like he was even a good pitcher and the level of competition was a fucking joke compared to what bonds faced.

And the thing to remember with bonds - everyone was juicing. Hitters, Pitchers, everyone. He still blew them all away.

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lol and Bonds would not have been in the same shape, had the same video to study, have the same nutritionist, or have the same training equipment if he played in 1920. It's not like you could just plop 2002 Bonds into the equation.

Comparing era's straight up like that is silly and degrading the level of competition is also silly.

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Well Bonds wouldnt be allowed to play in 1920 period but thats a whole different argument

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Baseball is probably the easiest GOAT conversation to have because we have so many adjusted measurements to cross compare players. Babe Ruth tops nearly all of those metrics, so he wins.

Gretzky and Jordan pass the gut check--watch either of them play, especially in moments that matter, and it's pretty clear where they stand. And both have the stats to support (especially gretzky, whose numbers are ludicrous).

Tom Brady, as discussed, has undoubtedly had the best career but also one that most benefitted from situation. Arguments can be made either way.

Don't know anything about soccer so whatever.

5/5

4/5

Ronaldo

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GameStonk posted...

(especially gretzky, whose numbers are ludicrous).

Fun Fact, before Lemieux retired the first time he averaged over 2 points per game.
The most of any NHL player.
He went into the Hall of Fame with that average.

It was only when he came back his PPG lowered to below Gretsky. Old broken diseased Lemieux could only average 1.34 PPG in the 2000's in the height of the dead puck era.
Which by the way "In fact, he had the highest points-per-game average amongst NHL players for the entire period from his 2001 return until his final retirement in 2006."
He didn't play full seasons but old man Lemieux was still the best player when he was on the ice.

I will always think Lemieux > Gretzky

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GameStonk posted...

but also one that most benefitted from situation

if only all quarterbacks could be lucky enough to land on a 7-9 team that hadn't made the playoffs in 13 years

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NFL - Nah, it's Jim Brown. Maybe Jerry Rice. But probably Jim Brown.

NBA - I can agree for now.

Soccer - Disagree, Pele.

Baseball - Agree.

Hockey - Agree.

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the Bucs were clearly a talented team who just needed an upgrade at QB

Brady chose Tampa for a reason

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LeonhartFour posted...

the Bucs were clearly a talented team who just needed an upgrade at QB

Brady chose Tampa for a reason

that's like half the league!

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MZero posted...

that's like half the league!

LOL

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Xtlm posted...

Fun Fact, before Lemieux retired the first time he averaged over 2 points per game.
The most of any NHL player.
He went into the Hall of Fame with that average.

It was only when he came back his PPG lowered to below Gretsky. Old broken diseased Lemieux could only average 1.34 PPG in the 2000's in the height of the dead puck era.
Which by the way "In fact, he had the highest points-per-game average amongst NHL players for the entire period from his 2001 return until his final retirement in 2006."
He didn't play full seasons but old man Lemieux was still the best player when he was on the ice.

I will always think Lemieux > Gretzky

Retiring younger always makes your PPG look good. Lemieux's first retirement came when he was at 2.005 PPG. After the same number of seasons played Gretzky was at 2.31 PPG. It's the same reason Mike Bossy has the best GPG of anyone (barring guys from the days when players were on the ice the whole game) and likely always will - he retired before the age where goal scorers almost universally have their production go down. For the sake of comparison, Lemieux was the second fastest player to reach 1000 career points. Wayne Gretzky of course did it fastest. Gretzky also went from 1000 to 2000, which no one else has even done, in fewer games that Lemieux went from 0 to 1000. So Gretzky is essentially the fastest *and* second fastest player to reach 1000 points, which is beyond ludicrous. Makes no sense to discredit him solely for being healthy enough to keep playing mostly full seasons as he aged which naturally lowered his PPG like it has for almost every single player in NHL history. There's also the fact that he won more awards, led the league in scoring more often, scored more at even strength than on the powerplay relatively than Lemieux did, played way more games, won his last scoring title at roughly the same age Lemieux did anyway, was even better in the playoffs (not a small achievement given the competition), etc.

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Panthera posted...

Retiring younger always makes your PPG look good. Lemieux's first retirement came when he was at 2.005 PPG. After the same number of seasons played Gretzky was at 2.31 PPG. It's the same reason Mike Bossy has the best GPG of anyone (barring guys from the days when players were on the ice the whole game) and likely always will - he retired before the age where goal scorers almost universally have their production go down. For the sake of comparison, Lemieux was the second fastest player to reach 1000 career points. Wayne Gretzky of course did it fastest. Gretzky also went from 1000 to 2000, which no one else has even done, in fewer games that Lemieux went from 0 to 1000. So Gretzky is essentially the fastest *and* second fastest player to reach 1000 points, which is beyond ludicrous. Makes no sense to discredit him solely for being healthy enough to keep playing mostly full seasons as he aged which naturally lowered his PPG like it has for almost every single player in NHL history. There's also the fact that he won more awards, led the league in scoring more often, scored more at even strength than on the powerplay relatively than Lemieux did, played way more games, won his last scoring title at roughly the same age Lemieux did anyway, was even better in the playoffs (not a small achievement given the competition), etc.

Destroyed.

I don't know that much about hockey. I almost picked Pavel Datsyuk but that'd be Detroit bias. Probably the best puck handler and shooter I've seen though.

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Datsyuk was a great player and all but he's not even vaguely close to this discussion <_< If you want Detroit bias you could always say Gordie Howe

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Xtlm posted...

lol and Bonds would not have been in the same shape, had the same video to study, have the same nutritionist, or have the same training equipment if he played in 1920. It's not like you could just plop 2002 Bonds into the equation.

Comparing era's straight up like that is silly and degrading the level of competition is also silly.

Just look at the two of them. Bonds is clearly the superior athlete. By a lot. But hes also the better baseball player.

Bonds was a true 5 tool player. Ruth pitched for a reason - he was a true liability in the field and thats where you played a guy like that back then. Which again reinforces the overall point that the pitching wasnt just worse...it was for the most part really really bad.

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Wonder if LeBron passes Jordan when he's done

Baseball is tricky but I could maybe see the argument for Mays/Williams/Bonds (Agree it's Ruth)

Football is so positional that you could make an argument for like, Lawrence Taylor or Jerry Rice

Hockey is Gretzky

I honestly don't follow Soccer enough

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Also the bucs 100% pulled a Miami heat this year to make an attempt at a dream team

Also got lucky with opponent injuries etc

Brady is still the best, but he's always been supported by the best possible squads

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Brady has broken the "championships sre the only stat that matters" thing to me.

Because despite his long term success, I can only think of maybe 1 year where he was clearly the best player.

Versus say manning who was universally acknowledged as a top 5 mvp candidate almost every single year he played except ironically the year he won his last super bowl.

Phillip Rivers is definitely a better QB than Eli Manning but Manning won 2 titles and he won 0.


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Brady won 0 Super Bowls during his actual prime.

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Eddv posted...

Brady has broken the "championships sre the only stat that matters" thing to me.

Almost no one considers Bill Russell the GOAT so this hasn't been a thing for a long time

Leonhart4 posted...

Brady won 0 Super Bowls during his actual prime.

He won 2, his prime lasted until 2017 tbh

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It's weird because Brady probably didn't have the best prime amongst QBs but the longevity of his prime is often overlooked and he very quietly has some really impressive regular season stats that are overshadowed by his postseason success. Like even this year he threw 40 TDs.

Also everyone underrates Manning's cast. I might even argue in his prime it was better than Brady's cast.

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Manning had great talent. We're just not allowed to talk about Marvin Harrison anymore.

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I think Gretzky is a lock.
Jordan is the clear favorite but an argument can be made for Lebron. But I'd argue for Jordan any day and I think most people would too.

Babe Ruth is probably the goat, but because of age he's more of a legend now that is probably untouchable no matter what.

For Football, it's pretty hard but when you look at stuff like Brady winning more Super Bowls than any other TEAM in NFL history it's hard not to give the nod to him despite the fact he might not be the best statistical player, he's the best at getting what has to be done done.

I don't really know anything about soccer.

I basically only know soccer and it's absolutely right.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

I basically only know soccer and it's absolutely right.

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You can't be coddled and be the greatest of all time

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