Current Events > I don't like Rise of Skywalker, but only because it didn't double down on TLJ

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'd have more respect for the movie at any rate

TLJ was a direction the series needed to go in but with TRoS you had Abrams going all "oh no here's some fan service pls like us again"

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no one ever shuts up about the ST when I try talking about Mando or the High Republic but everyone's all tight lipped rn

y'all can kiss my boney white ass

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I agree. The whole movie felt like it was trying to ignore TLJ as much as possible and just awkwardly pretend it didn't happen.

The fact that Rose Tico is demoted from major supporting character to "that one rebel who gets lines" is a testament to how little effort was put into actually capping off the series.

Where do you really go with the TLJ story, though? Kylo Ren as the big baddie? The seeds of romance between him and Rey were already planted so it would be too obvious that he would turn in the end.

TROS is one of the worst movies I've ever seen and it's still better than TLJ.
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Proto_Spark posted...

I agree. The whole movie felt like it was trying to ignore TLJ as much as possible and just awkwardly pretend it didn't happen.

It, along with probably Justice League stands out as the best example of reactive filmmaking I've ever seen

It's barely a movie, it's just scenes filmed to check boxes for Youtube review/theory channels

Proto_Spark posted...

The fact that Rose Tico is demoted from major supporting character to "that one rebel who gets lines" is a testament to how little effort was put into actually capping off the series.

She and her actress were utterly wasted. Such a disappointment

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TLJ was complete ass and left Skywalker with nowhere to go. It ruined Finn and Poe, wasted Snoke, and absolutely wasted Luke's return.

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I can't comment on Rise. TLJ was such a... let's so odd, choice, that I completely lost interesting in finishing off the series so I never saw Rise

Josiah_Is_Back posted...

Where do you really go with the TLJ story, though? Kylo Ren as the big baddie?

Yes?

Ren as the leader of a First Order that he dominates with fear while obsessively hunting Rey and the Resistance while his disloyal underlings like General Hux plot against him, believing him unstable and holding them back (which we see seeds of throughout TLJ)


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Kylo lost every lightsaber fight he was in lol

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Doom_Art posted...

Yes?

Ren as the leader of a First Order that he dominates with fear while obsessively hunting Rey and the Resistance while his disloyal underlings like General Hux plot against him, believing him unstable and holding them back (which we see seeds of throughout TLJ)

That doesn't really work as the closer to a trilogy, that sounds like what the middle movie should be

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SSJGrimReaper posted...

Kylo lost every lightsaber fight he was in lol

Beat Finn and took down Snoke's praetorians tho

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That's true, he did beat a stormtrooper and some guys with spears

TFA couldve been vindicated if TLJ didnt throw all of its plot hooks in the trash.

TLJ couldve been vindicated if they followed up on the direction it shifted to

The sequel movies couldve been good if they werent actively trying to sabotage eachother >_>

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CM_Ponch posted...

That doesn't really work as the closer to a trilogy

Says who, though? That seems like rather unimaginative thinking.

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If you only have 1 reason to hate that movie, you weren't paying attention.

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Doom_Art posted...

Beat Finn and took down Snoke's praetorians tho

Yes he beats an ex storm trooper and some disposable minions wow

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Josiah_Is_Back posted...

Where do you really go with the TLJ story, though? Kylo Ren as the big baddie? The seeds of romance between him and Rey were already planted so it would be too obvious that he would turn in the end.

personally I don't think he should've turned. The whole point of the end of TLJ was he was given a choice to turn (again) and he still doubled down on the dark side. But even if you have him turn, its very clear that Kylo Ran would not be a good supreme leader.

The part in RoS where Hux screws over the First Order entirely because he hates Kylo Ren made perfect sense with his character, and should have actually gone somewhere, but instead its a throwaway plot point to get rid of the only other evil character they had built up.

Hux shouldn't be the big baddie either, but IMO the ST shouldn't have been a big baddie. It didn't help any of the characters beating Palpatine, and Kylo and Rey both had so much better places to go than awkwardly teaming up to fight a generic big bad neither had cared about before that movie.

But its a standard big movie, so we awkwardly need a big CGI battle in there.

CM_Ponch posted...

TLJ was complete ass and left Skywalker with nowhere to go. It ruined Finn and Poe, wasted Snoke, and absolutely wasted Luke's return.

Poe should've stepped up to be some kind of actual leader, since his role in TLJ is learning how to lead, and Finn should have done something where he's actually a rebel. RoS just ignored whatever actual developments they tried to put in in TLJ.

And Snoke had what, 2 lines in TFA? He was always worthless.

I never said they were glamorous or amazing victories

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Doom_Art posted...

Says who, though? That seems like rather unimaginative thinking.

Because you're wasting story. Kylo hunting the rebels should be equivalent to ESB in that it's his crowning moment and a hopeless moment for the heroes to set up the finale. If it's the end movie then there's no time for Kylo to be dominant and have it hold any lasting impact.

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Rise of Skywalker is damage control presented as a movie.
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CM_Ponch posted...

Because you're wasting story. Kylo hunting the rebels should be equivalent to ESB in that it's his crowning moment and a hopeless moment for the heroes to set up the finale. If it's the end movie then there's no time for Kylo to be dominant and have it hold any lasting impact.

But Kylo isn't Darth Vader. His badass victory and hopeless moment was crushing the rebels of Crait, but instead of actually crushing them he was too stuck in his own head to get it done and let Luke **** with him until the rebels got away. I agree it shouldn't have been Kylo crushing the rebels for a 3rd movie, but it should have been (IMO) everything falling apart around him as he faces consequences for the bad choices he's made.

Proto_Spark posted...

And Snoke had what, 2 lines in TFA? He was always worthless.

TFA set him up as the big bad just for TLJ to throw him away for a quick shock factor. TLJ should have been focused on building up Snoke or a proper villain for the final movie. Instead we're left with Kylo who totally isn't going to become good and no other potential villain. If TLJ really wanted to do a big twist they should have done a double turn and had Rey go dark after the cave and have Kylo go good, at least that does something new.

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CM_Ponch posted...

Because you're wasting story.

"Waste of story"

What? If you're properly following up on and developing something that already happened then it's never a waste lol

CM_Ponch posted...

equivalent to ESB

There's your problem. Stop trying to mirror the formula of the OT. This is what I'm getting at. TLJ for it's flaws was moving the franchise in a different direction. We don't need to hit the same narrative and thematic beats that the trilogy that came out 35-40 years ago hit.

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abrams is a complete hack

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Proto_Spark posted...

but it should have been (IMO) everything falling apart around him as he faces consequences for the bad choices he's made.

That's exactly right.

As was said, he was given more than one opportunity to turn his life around and put an end to all the madness he helped usher in and his response was to double down on his destructive life choices.

CM_Ponch posted...

TLJ should have been focused on building up Snoke or a proper villain for the final movie

They were doing that lol

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no matter what they did rots would have made people mad due to how incredibly divisive the last jedi was. it was a movie that was basically positioned to fail from the outset with one large group of people or the other. admittedly it was not a good idea to lean towards the group of people that were far more likely to be angry at you absolutely no matter what you did, but i honestly doubt it would have ended much differently if they went towards another tlj

god im so tired of fucking star wars discourse

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ultimate reaver posted...

no matter what they did rots would have made people mad due to how incredibly divisive the last jedi was.

which is why they should've just properly followed up on TLJ

the people who are making several Youtube videos a week and making seven hour long video essays about how you ruined their childhood are going to stay addicted to the outrage no matter what. trying to please them was moronic.

ultimate reaver posted...

god im so tired of fucking star wars discourse

it's a remarkably toxic and depressing fandom yeah

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Both sucked.

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Doom_Art posted...

There's your problem. Stop trying to mirror the formula of the OT. This is what I'm getting at. TLJ for it's flaws was moving the franchise in a different direction. We don't need to hit the same narrative and thematic beats that the trilogy that came out 35-40 years ago hit.

This isn't exclusive to Star Wars. The middle part of a trilogy needs to establish a villain or put the hero in a questionable position to set up tension for the finale. By the time TLJ is over you have Kylo being seen as a joke after being embarrassed by Luke and no one else to play the big bad above him. TLJ couldn't commit to Kylo being beyond redemption and instead had him continuously fail. He failed to kill Leia, he failed to kill Luke, he failed to turn Rei, he failed to stop the rebellion. Kylo had no momentum heading into the third movie. Compare this to The Dark Knight where Batman is now seen as a murderer who the people of Gotham can no longer trust, his body damaged from the years of fighting, and Gotham shattered by the loss of Dent. The middle act is set up and needs to be where your villains shine.

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Doom_Art posted...

TLJ was a direction the series needed to go in

Doom_Art posted...

TLJ for it's flaws was moving the franchise in a different direction.

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CM_Ponch posted...

The middle part of a trilogy needs to establish a villain or put the hero in a questionable position to set up tension for the finale.

that did happen tho

CM_Ponch posted...

By the time TLJ is over you have Kylo being seen as a joke after being embarrassed by Luke and no one else to play the big bad above him.

Lol there's no one above him because he's the guy now. He's the Supreme Leader.

And it's funny you use TDK as an example of a good middle installment because I found the TDKR did an abysmal job following it up

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AllegraD posted...

Both sucked.

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Doom_Art posted...

that did happen tho

The movie ended with Kylo having failed and throwing a temper tantrum, it failed to make him the big bad.

Doom_Art posted...

Lol there's no one above him because he's the guy now. He's the Supreme Leader.

Which was a mistake because they failed to make him worth a damn as the big bad. He loses in TFA, he loses in TLJ, and he would lose in the final movie. That's not a good villain.

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Like I don't even hate RotS, I just think it's a bland mush with a few marshmallows of fanservice sprinkled in and I'm not even remotely inspired for imagining what could come after that for Star Wars chronologically.

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TFA and RoS are horribly boring movies.

TLJ is the only decent one of that set, and even then it could have been much better

CM_Ponch posted...

TLJ couldn't commit to Kylo being beyond redemption and instead had him continuously fail. He failed to kill Leia, he failed to kill Luke, he failed to turn Rei, he failed to stop the rebellion

All of these had character reasons though. Kylo Ren is a scared little kid who refuses to actually learn from his failures and is instead lashing out at the world around him. Kylo isn't beyond redemption if he could kill Luke or crush the rebellion, he's beyond redemption because he keeps actively making these self-destructive choices.

I don't think the ST needed a big bad, it needed a suitable resolution for our main characters, and you didn't need a Uber-big bad and a drawn out CGI fight scene to do so.

I thought The Last Jedi had actually set up what could have been a fairly interesting Star Wars movie if done right.

Kylo Ren has finally done what his grandfather couldn't by overthrowing his master and taking full control of the First Order...except now he's chasing an unattainable goal by trying to eradicate the last remaining traces of the Resistance and the Jedi Order, something he will never be able to do because, as Rey is a testament to, powerful and incorruptible Jedi can literally come from nothing regardless of bloodline. He's also killed off or isolated himself from anybody who would ever care about him, meaning his entire journey towards the dark side was utterly pointless. He's also incredibly emotionally unstable and unfit to lead, so Hux would likely be plotting against him.

Then you've got Rey trying to rebuild the Jedi Order, but learning from the mistakes that both previous Jedi Orders made out of fear.

Smaller elements like Rose could have played a bigger role. Benecio Del Toro's character could have showed up and been an interesting wildcard and maybe even a key factor in the Resistance's victory.

Like guys, you can hate TLJ all you want. It still had interesting concepts it could have built off of and would have been far more interesting than "Return of the Jedi but worse".

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Proto_Spark posted...

All of these had character reasons though. Kylo Ren is a scared little kid who refuses to actually learn from his failures and is instead lashing out at the world around him. Kylo isn't beyond redemption if he could kill Luke or crush the rebellion, he's beyond redemption because he keeps actively making these self-destructive choices.

He is never beyond redemption because his failures give him a chance at redemption. If he had killed Leia and it stuck you've made him an effective villain. He would have killed away his last remaining connection to the light side and fully embraced being on the dark side. By leaving her alive it keeps his humanity alive. The TLJ fails to make Kylo a threat. If you want to argue that Kylo's story was one of redemption then you need someone higher than him for him to be redeemed against. TLJ took that character away by killing Snoke. By the time TLJ is over there's no real threat except a guy who's been embarrassed two movies in a row.

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CM_Ponch posted...

Which was a mistake because they failed to make him worth a damn as the big bad. He loses in TFA, he loses in TLJ, and he would lose in the final movie. That's not a good villain.

All you need from your villain is for them to provide good conflict. Making them a brutal, god-slaying badass is just one way of doing that. You can also make them an impulsive, emotionally unstable wreck who has way too much power and makes terrible decisions that fuck over everyone else.

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

All you need from your villain is for them to provide good conflict. Making them a brutal, god-slaying badass is just one way of doing that. You can also make them an impulsive, emotionally unstable wreck who has way too much power and makes terrible decisions that fuck over everyone else.

But Kylo failed at providing that. Him killing Han is good set up, and then that's followed up by him failing repeatedly. Poe is a better villain in TLJ than Kylo because his actions actually put the rebels in a tight spot. All Kylo did was weaken the First Order by killing Snoke, fail to turn Rey, and get trolled by Luke.

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TLJ is the third best star wars film, will argue til i die

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Bananana posted...

TLJ is the third best star wars film, will argue til i die

finally, a star wars take that I agree with

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CM_Ponch posted...

But Kylo failed at providing that. Him killing Han is good set up, and then that's followed up by him failing repeatedly. Poe is a better villain in TLJ than Kylo because his actions actually put the rebels in a tight spot. All Kylo did was weaken the First Order by killing Snoke, fail to turn Rey, and get trolled by Luke.

We would have seen that had they built on TLJ instead of trying to reset the status quo.

Kylo didn't get to do anything because Abrams never let him be anything more than the Dragon to someone more powerful.

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Bananana posted...

TLJ is the third best star wars film, will argue til i die

it's bottom four

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They made such a big deal in Ep. 7 & 8 about the Resistance being desperate to find Skywalker. And Snoke told Kylo Ren that as long as Skywalker lives hope lives in the Galaxy.

Rey should have taken up the Skywalker name to then help rally the Galaxy against the Emperor (remember he announced his return to the Galaxy and demanded all systems submit or be destroyed)

Either its her idea, or at the behest of Leia or Ghost Luke or whatever.

IIRC in one of the early scripts the Resistance is trying to access a special First Order satellite/telecommunications system to send a message out throughout the Galaxy. The writers should have kept that idea + make it about announcing Skywalkers return and leading the fight against the Emperor.

i dunno, just something that isnt an adventure revolving around a McMuffin that then leads to a 2nd McGuffin.

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

We would have seen that had they built on TLJ instead of trying to reset the status quo.

There was nothing to build on from TLJ. Having TLJ end the way it did and having movie 3 opening with Kylo having had victories off screen is a waste of story that should have been shown in TLJ.

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TLJ was a perfect follow up to TFA.

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CM_Ponch posted...

There was nothing to build on from TLJ. Having TLJ end the way it did and having movie 3 opening with Kylo having had victories off screen is a waste of story that should have been shown in TLJ.

Kylo Ren didn't need offscreen victories. The Resistance is already the underdog in the story and still would have been even going into TRoS. The situation is waaaaaay more dire for The Resistance than the First Order. That is good enough.

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