Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 347: The Indian in the Cabinet

(+) Yeah! (+)

What the opinion said is that they were subjected to a harsher requirement than other organizations, such as grocery stores (IIRC), which NYS apparently deemed more important. That cannot fly. If having 50 people in a grocery store is safe, then having 50 people in a church of the same size is safe. I don't think anything in the ruling prevents NYS from issuing a more narrowly tailored public health order (like, you can have more people if you are meeting in a cathedral than if you are meeting in someone's house).

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Also someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they actually overruled the case from back in May saying these public health orders do apply to churches, just distinguished it.

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1. grocery stores are absolutely more essential than church services (people will not literally starve to death without communion)
2. sitting in the same place next to the same people for an hour is a much higher covid risk than briefly passing by someone in a store (and thats before you even get to things like singing that can cause superspreading).

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Like if the complaint was that there were more restrictions on churches than bars then sure, theyd have a valid grievance. But afaik thats not the case here.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

1. grocery stores are absolutely more essential than church services (people will not literally starve to death without communion)
2. sitting in the same place next to the same people for an hour is a much higher covid risk than briefly passing by someone in a store (and thats before you even get to things like singing that can cause superspreading).

Do I need to quote from the Bible and the US Constitution or do you understand the legal argument without it?

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My church streams it's services online so many people can choose to participate from home.

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And given that the Pope published that op-ed and the SCOTUS opinion found that there was no evidence of even a single COVID transmission at the plaintiffs' churches, probably because they have been taking stringent safety measures, it seems that this case was more about the principle of the matter than anything else.

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And one final note - can the Catholic Church even get more than 10 people to show up at a service in NYC other than Easter and Christmas? Attendance was non-evangelical churches was already threadbare before COVID, and the majority of parishioners are not going to want to expose themselves to the virus. I checked with my parents and their church has been virtual this year, because people want to be safe.

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red sox 777 posted...

no evidence of even a single COVID transmission at the plaintiffs' churches,

I take issue with this.

So a small percentage of churches show that they are capable of taking strong precarious app we just shouldn't require precautions by anyone?

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

My church streams it's services online so many people can choose to participate from home.

And yes, this is the responsible way to go about this, which is not possible for grocery stores.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

And yes, this is the responsible way to go about this, which is not possible for grocery stores.

But isn't possible for religions that require sacraments.

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masterplum posted...

But isn't possible for religions that require sacraments.

Can't speak for all religions, but the Catholic church has recognized streamed services as acceptable practices for these. this has been established long since before the pandemic.

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red13n posted...

Can't speak for all religions, but the Catholic church has recognized streamed services as acceptable practices for these. this has been established long since before the pandemic.

Just because some religions are able to accomodate doesn't mean you can generalize that to all religions. Very important to ensure the 1st amendment isn't freedom for Christians.

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No one was restricting freedom, their freedom was just being spaced out to accommodate less at once. To combat a global pandemic.

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You are arguing that religion isn't worth preserving in a global pandemic, which is a valid opinion, but it is completely unrelated to how reasonable it is to say that a limit of 10 people for religious gatherings is accomodatable. These are two completely seperate arguments.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

I take issue with this.

So a small percentage of churches show that they are capable of taking strong precarious app we just shouldn't require precautions by anyone?

That wasn't the ruling though. SCOTUS did not say that churches are immune from needing to take any precautions. Just that this particular rule issued by NYS was insufficiently tailored to protect freedom of religion. Cuomo can issue another rule that does so.

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masterplum posted...

You are arguing that religion isn't worth preserving in a global pandemic

No one is arguing this.

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I believe in California it's something like 10% of the normal capacity or 50, whichever is smaller which does seem more reasonable than 10, but again it's not like online services are unreasonable in this day and age. I helped my church pick out a new computer a few months ago specifically to improve our online performance.

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I think with most Protestant churches and especially those with Calvinist leanings, there is no real religious issue here. Some denominations have insisted for centuries on calling their building a "meeting house" rather than a "church" anyway, to emphasize that there is nothing special or holy about the building.

For the Catholic Church, it has been said in this topic that streamed services have been ruled to be okay, but I am unaware of any ruling saying that remote sacraments are valid. And there are probably lots of religions or branches of religions that do believe in-person sacraments or other contact is necessary.

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This is so pathetic

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1332169753004224515

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I assure you that many religions have survived far worse persecutions than Covid restrictions.
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excuse me didn't you hear that our attorney general thinks that covid restrictions have been the "greatest intrusion on civil liberties" since slavery

jim crow? internment camps?

nope. covid restrictions.

hell alito didn't even give it that qualifier in his federalist society speech

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Show me where in the Constitution it says that I don't have the inalienable right to not be inconvenienced to stop the spread of a deadly disease...!

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religion isn't worth preserving whether there is a global pandemic or not tbqh

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https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1332305887814438915

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How embarrassing.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1332100157501018113?s=19

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https://twitter.com/marmel/status/1332131897627951104?s=21
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I dont care that the same picture was already shared

Its the crowning image of the Trump Presidency
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There's so many things about it that are so ridiculous

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https://www.timesnownews.com/international/article/iranian-nuclear-scientist-assassinated-near-tehran-mohsen-fakhrizadeh-killed/687649

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Jakyl25 posted...

I dont care that the same picture was already shared

Its the crowning image of the Trump Presidency

that's a tough one.
personally i'm still partial to the video of him walking with toilet paper on his foot but that's best as a video.


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Rudy shut down by the Third Circuit:

https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1332378852065067013?s=21

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I posted about this when Trump first signed the EO like a month ago, but thread:

https://twitter.com/RepDonBeyer/status/1332402560842522630

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xp1337 posted...

excuse me didn't you hear that our attorney general thinks that covid restrictions have been the "greatest intrusion on civil liberties" since slavery

jim crow? internment camps?

nope. covid restrictions.

hell alito didn't even give it that qualifier in his federalist society speech

To be far more than fair, Barr was limiting that to US history. Including the rest of the world, I'm sure even he could come up with at least one big example since then.
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https://twitter.com/DailyTrix/status/1332136435961503746

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The Trump funded Milwaukee recount is over and Biden's lead increased by 132 votes, lol.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

The Trump funded Milwaukee recount is over and Biden's lead increased by 132 votes, lol.

STOP THE RECOUNT

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The Dems just can't stop cheating! They already added hundreds of thousands of fake votes then added 132 more for good measure!

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So what youre saying is that Trump can still win Wisconsin with just -158 recounts!

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I regret to inform you that Congressman and proud MIT graduate Thomas Massie is being an absolute dumbass again

https://twitter.com/repthomasmassie/status/1332467695606968326?s=21

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The Trump campaign paid $3 Million in public donations to fund that recount.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I regret to inform you that Congressman and proud MIT graduate Thomas Massie is being an absolute dumbass again

https://twitter.com/repthomasmassie/status/1332467695606968326?s=21

My fucking brain.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

The Trump campaign paid $3 Million in public donations to fund that recount.

Haven't all their calls for donations post-election had an increasing % in the small print stated to go instead to Trump's PAC? Like it was 60% then jumped to 75%, etc.

It's all one last grift for the road.

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This guy's timeline is a trip.

He has science denier in his bio. One of his recent posts seems to be implying that he thinks everyone in congress is an idiot...including himself? What is he he going for here?

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You may remember the last time he made an ass of himself in front of John Kerry:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DSi2gzIkHM

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LordoftheMorons posted...

You may remember the last time he made an ass of himself in front of John Kerry:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DSi2gzIkHM

*Crowd claps for Kerry basically calling Massie an idiot*

Massie: "I agree!" *claps*


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https://www.newsweek.com/dominion-voting-systems-says-it-will-hold-sidney-powell-accountable-any-harm-connected-voter-1550873

Dominion said earlier this week that its employees have been threatenedone worker even had a bounty placed on their head, the company saidas a result of those allegations.

"Sidney Powell's wild and reckless allegations are not only demonstrably false, they have led to stalking, harassment, and death threats to Dominion employees," the company's statement concluded. "This criminal activity has been duly reported to the appropriate law enforcement agencies, and we intend to hold Ms. Powell, and those aiding and abetting her fraudulent actions, accountable for any harm that may occur as a result."

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I remember Massie as the one person so abhorrent it caused Trump and Kerry to bond on how truly awful he was.

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Remember that story about a school that was having students get up and walk around every 14 minutes to to avoid the 15 minute rule for social distancing?

Well...

https://twitter.com/haithamahmedmd/status/1332501299317911552?s=21

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