Current Events > Eventually the income inequality in the USA will cripple it

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm pretty sure money would lose all value before that ever comes to pass. If people have no faith in money, then money doesn't actually exist.

nemu posted...

If people have no faith in money, then money doesn't actually exist.

Money is just a substitute for bartering. If you think the poor are screwed over now, just wait until a barter economy is the only economy.

joel, you dont believe in private property do you? Didnt you say something like that?

And you think owners dont necessarily do anything of value. Besides providing all the start up, equipment, rent and hiring unemployed people. They should walk off the street and make equal money while suffering no risk.

Lets say you got 5 comrades making your damn pizzas. Does anyone in their right mind think all 5 of those people are really equal? You need at least one person to keep the others in line. Otherwise someones gonna keep slipping out back to smoke weed while they should be making hot pizzas. Anothers gona be on her fuckin phone all the time. And the workhorse, Boxer, making the majority of the pizzas and working faster. Cuz ya know.. humans arent equal, some are better at things than others. Hes gonna get pissed off at carrying the dead weight when the slackers get paid the same money.

So he will get mad, open his own pizza place. And run your shit into the ground working faster and delivering a better product. Since he has all the experience and provides the equipment , hes gonna think he deserves more money. Which he does. This is obvious to anyone who has had a goddam job. Try telling a master carpenter he deserves the same amount of money as the dude on site who picks up his 2x4 scraps. Youd be lucky if he didnt crack you one in the jibs.

Clutch posted...

Yes, because it would be impossible to run a business based on such an arbitrary metric.

the value of someone's labour isn't arbitrary, and it actually makes much more sense to pay people according to the amount of work they do and the amount of money their labour brings in.

peasants under feudalism knew exactly how much grain their lord was taking from them. wage labour creates an additional layer of abstraction, making it much more difficult for workers to know how much their boss is taking from them. this means that capitalism has much greater potential for exploitation than feudalism (at least in terms of the amount that people are able to make from someone else's work)

---

Keith_Valentine posted...

joel, you dont believe in private property do you? Didnt you say something like that?

Would a pizza place even exist, if nobody can own the place?

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Explain

he thinks paying people according to the value they produce is somehow less arbitrary than paying them an amount of dollars per hour determined by a 3rd party

---

Keith_Valentine posted...

Lets say you got 5 comrades making your damn pizzas. Does anyone in their right mind think all 5 of those people are really equal? You need at least one person to keep the others in line. Otherwise someones gonna keep slipping out back to smoke weed while they should be making hot pizzas. Anothers gona be on her fuckin phone all the time. And the workhorse, Boxer, making the majority of the pizzas and working faster. Cuz ya know.. humans arent equal, some are better at things than others. Hes gonna get pissed off at carrying the dead weight when the slackers get paid the same money.

You act like this doesn't already happen under capitalism, with workers even less invested in the growth and prosperity of the company they work for because those profits aren't distributed equally and fairly.

---

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

Incorrect. I have a basic grasp of the book and human nature, and it is from these things (well, the latter anyway, a fictional book is not that important lol) that I have drawn my conclusions.

Not from what i see

Also incorrect and, for a bonus, ignoring the fact that capitalism has also failed every time it was "put into play", and is currently en route to ending human life.

How has it failed? All the most successful countried in the world use a form of capitalism. All the places everyone wants to live are capitalist republics mostly. Ending life how? Capitalistic advances in medicine have saved lives. People arent starving to desth or dying from diarrhea.

It has also produced the worst of those categories in order to produce the best in those categories, so we should ditch it completely.

Such as what? Replace it with what?

You're attempting to make this personal. Sorry for your loss.

Only thing being lost is any of your credibility. Youre too scared to even odebtify your ideology and open your beliefs up to criticism. Just sniping from the sidelines like a smug hater, shitting on what other people have created while revealing nothing of yourself. An example of weakness

I thought I had Keith blocked already. fixing this now

---

If a business fails under communism, who has to deal with the fallout? Are all the employees equally burdened with fees, fines, etc or does the government deal with the backend shit?

averagejoel posted...

the value of someone's labour isn't arbitrary, and it actually makes much more sense to pay people according to the amount of work they do and the amount of money their labour brings in.

And what happens if the business loses money that month?


---

nemu posted...

Are all the employees equally burdened with fees, fines, etc or does the government deal with the backend shit?

Under communism, the government would essentially be fining itself.
So... pretend nothing bad is happening, then send a few token scapegoats to the gulag when the denial eventually falls apart.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

You act like this doesn't already happen under capitalism, with workers even less invested in the growth and prosperity of the company they work for because those profits aren't distributed equally and fairly.

Not everyone is as ungrateful as you are. But lets be honest, you probably dont work.

My boss has forgotten more than i know. Straight up. Hes a pro. I came to him homeless and he gave me a job and got me out of my car and into what to me is luxury. All i had to do was work hard and learn and chill the fuck out. It would be insane for me to walk up to that man and demand an equal part in a business he risked everything for and built over decades. He carries all that shit on his back and works so hard its proly taking years off his life. I wouldnt trade with him if i could. These ideas ignore so many things as simple as motivation, risk, leadership, accountability.

Any workers that opened a place together and shared the profits. As they expanded and sought new help, would NEVER consider paying a brand new , unskilled employee the same as what they get for building it from scratch.

Keith_Valentine posted...

How has it failed? All the most successful countried in the world use a form of capitalism.

At the expense of the poor and working people in their own countries, at the expense of democracy (in the workplace and otherwise), and at the expense of other countries. Hence, failure.

Ending life how? Capitalistic advances in medicine have saved lives. People arent starving to desth or dying from diarrhea.

Climate change and warfare. Also, the vast majority of advancements and innovations in all fields, including medicine, have come from the public sector. Which isn't exactly "socialism", but isn't driven by profit motives. It is, however, taken advantage of and made worse by capitalism, pretty much universally.

Keith_Valentine posted...

Such as what? Replace it with what?

Egalitarianism and democracy.

Keith_Valentine posted...

Only thing being lost is any of your credibility. Youre too scared to even odebtify your ideology and open your beliefs up to criticism.

I'm not running for office or trying to pick up chicks, I don't care about my imaginery credibility. I don't need to "odebtify" anything, because its rather irrelevant and not conducive to either a productive discussion, or a good time on my part. You're just trying to change the subject. I am, like a cartoon character, putting my hand on top of your head and turning you back around, with a sort of 'woop' sound effect and a blurry swish animation.

---

Keith_Valentine posted...

Not everyone is as ungrateful as you are. But lets be honest, you probably dont work.

I do. And what I've noticed in my workplace is that sales rep that make $4000 a day and sales reps that make $500 a day make the same hourly rate, precisely because their wages are arbitrarily determined by their employer and aren't based on the actual value they produce. And because the value you produce isn't proportionate to the money you make, there is little incentive to actually do more than the bare minimum, because you get paid the same regardless.

What you've described in your hypothetical is actually a function of capitalism lmao

---

nemu posted...

If a business fails under communism, who has to deal with the fallout? Are all the employees equally burdened with fees, fines, etc or does the government deal with the backend shit?

there isn't really a way to answer this without first defining what you mean by a "business", and by what constitutes a business "failing"

communism is a fundamentally different economic system -- the biggest core difference being that it's not based on generating profit.

the way institutions function under communism is completely different from the way they function under capitalism. the whole way we conceptualize what a "business" is would probably not line up at all with the way goods and services are distributed under communism.

---

Keith is known to move goal posts, we could slowly trick him into disparage his mother and grandma if it came down to defending a millionaire (as a temporarily embarrassed millionaire)

SocksForWokMAX5 posted...

Its the same loopholes we all use and these billionaires pay the majority anyway and despite the loopholes.

What offshore accounts do you have? What shell companies do you have set up?

---

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

At the expense of the poor and working people in their own countries, at the expense of democracy (in the workplace and otherwise), and at the expense of other countries. Hence, failure.

Oh so you are going to eliminate poverty, Superman? Probably racism, sexism, and homophobia too? Maybe you could build reeducation centers for people to help get their mind right. Vapid bullshit

Climate change and warfare. Also, the vast majority of advancements and innovations in all fields, including medicine, have come from the public sector. Which isn't exactly "socialism", but isn't driven by profit motives. It is, however, taken advantage of and made worse by capitalism, pretty much universally.

Advances in the public sector arent driven by profit motives? Really? Guess what, youre deadass wrong! Making a profit or gaining a benefit from a service is about the most natural thing in the world. Why else would the majority of people do anything, the common good? Where do you even get this from?

We have democracy already. Theres equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Thats hard for some people to understand.

I'm not running for office or trying to pick up chicks, I don't care about my imaginery credibility. I don't need to "odebtify" anything, because its rather irrelevant and not conducive to either a productive discussion, or a good time on my part. You're just trying to change the subject. I am, like a cartoon character, putting my hand on top of your head and turning you back around, with a sort of 'woop' sound effect and a blurry swish animation.

No actually, you are blatantly dodging the question. And you really mock me for a typo and you spelled imaginary wrong? Thats a sign of desperation. Its not irrelevant at all, your whole argument is an attack on capitalism and you wont even offer what your counter ideology is thats going to replace it! How the fuck do you not get this? You are essentially bitching that the world isnt perfect and you look like a fool.

I think Keith's job is to angrily shitpost, because that's all he's been doing all day

long form variety too, not just little quips

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I do. And what I've noticed in my workplace is that sales rep that make $4000 a day and sales reps that make $500 a day make the same hourly rate, precisely because their wages are arbitrarily determined by their employer and aren't based on the actual value they produce. And because the value you produce isn't proportionate to the money you make, there is little incentive to actually do more than the bare minimum, because you get paid the same regardless.

What you've described in your hypothetical is actually a function of capitalism lmao

So people dont know how to demand a raise at your job ? Theres no commission in the sales, no upward mobility to supervise or lead? Then get a new job!

Kingbuffet posted...

Keith is known to move goal posts, we could slowly trick him into disparage his mother and grandma if it came down to defending a millionaire (as a temporarily embarrassed millionaire)

Ive never seen you post in my life. To try to trick me you would first need to present an argument, or anything of substance at all.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I do. And what I've noticed in my workplace is that sales rep that make $4000 a day and sales reps that make $500 a day make the same hourly rate, precisely because their wages are arbitrarily determined by their employer and aren't based on the actual value they produce.

That's what happens when you accept an hourly wage or flat salary instead of commission.

treewojima posted...

I think Keith's job is to angrily shitpost, because that's all he's been doing all day

long form variety too, not just little quips

You dont like me? You dont like my posts? Im actually saying something, youre shitposting. Say the word, you can go on the block list instantly.

Keith_Valentine posted...

Oh so you are going to eliminate poverty, Superman? Probably racism, sexism, and homophobia too? Maybe you could build reeducation centers for people to help get their mind right. Vapid bulls***

You're putting too much emphasis on my character, when I'm not talking about that and don't really care. Sorry for your loss.
Keith_Valentine posted...

Advances in the public sector arent driven by profit motives? Really? Guess what, youre deadass wrong! Making a profit or gaining a benefit from a service is about the most natural thing in the world. Why else would the majority of people do anything, the common good? Where do you even get this from?

Yes, no I am correct, no you are incorrect, and yes the "common good" is why things should be done. Next word fart.
Keith_Valentine posted...

We have democracy already. Theres equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Thats hard for some people to understand.

Yes, that's the problem. No equality of outcome. Good job, you have figured out the problem.

We also don't have democracy. We live in a Republic, with capitalism, assuming you're an American too. Gotta get rid of those two and put democracy in its place.
Keith_Valentine posted...

No actually, you are blatantly dodging the question.

Yes, I am dodging an irrelevant question. Blatantly. And I'm only using half my speed on my first form.
Keith_Valentine posted...

And you really mock me for a typo and you spelled imaginary wrong?

Yes, I am really mock you.
Keith_Valentine posted...

Its not irrelevant at all, your whole argument is an attack on capitalism and you wont even offer what your counter ideology is thats going to replace it!

Capitalism is an economic system, not an ideology.
Keith_Valentine posted...

How the f*** do you not get this? You are essentially b****ing that the world isnt perfect and you look like a fool.

Oh no, now the women on this message board will never sleep with me, or elect me president. For I look like a fool. Sadface.

---

Keith_Valentine posted...

So people dont know how to demand a raise at your job ?

Raises aren't guaranteed by any means. Nor is it guaranteed that it'll actually reflect your value.

Questionmarktarius posted...

That's what happens when you accept an hourly wage or flat salary

Too bad this describes the vast majority of jobs in the U.S.

---

Why do you keep bringing up women fucking you for your beliefs? Is that like.. you think having these views might help you fit in or get a gf?

People primarily act out of self interest. Being driven by profit has always been a huge motivation.

Youre totally reduced to being evasive and sarcastic at this point, people can make up their own minds. Fun chat , friend request comin your way baby

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Let's get one thing straight.

Fictional stories should not, in any way, be used to prove a point about socioeconomic theory.

True, but also Animal Farms message is basically, the workers should revolt, and also keep their eyes out for anyone looking to sell out and betray the cause.

---

Shablagoo posted...

True, but also Animal Farms message is basically, the workers should revolt, and also keep their eyes out for anyone looking to sell out and betray the cause.

Alternately: "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

Keith_Valentine posted...

People primarily act out of self interest. Being driven by profit has always been a huge motivation.

So surely you can see why this system (where wages are predetermined by your employer and where the only incentive to do well at your profession is essentially a dangling carrot) would be horribly flawed, right?

It's almost comical how your takedowns of socialism can be used to define what's currently happening under capitalism to a tee.


---

Clutch posted...

And what happens if the business loses money that month?

do you mean in the context of a worker co-op under capitalism, or in the context of a similar institution under communism?

---

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Too bad this describes the vast majority of jobs in the U.S.

Would you really want a fastfood job that pays by commission?

Questionmarktarius posted...

Would you really want a fastfood job that pays by commission?

I mentioned the 'vast majority' of jobs and you hone in very specifically on fast food.

Hmm.

---

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I mentioned the 'vast majority' of jobs and you hone in very specifically on fast food.

Hmm.

Would you want reception job paid by commission?

Questionmarktarius posted...

Under communism, the government would essentially be fining itself.
So... pretend nothing bad is happening, then send a few token scapegoats to the gulag when the denial eventually falls apart.

https://youtu.be/efU4opfSwQY

Keith_Valentine posted...

Oh so you are going to eliminate poverty, Superman?

Keith_Valentine posted...

My boss has forgotten more than i know. Straight up. Hes a pro. I came to him homeless and he gave me a job and got me out of my car and into what to me is luxury.

lmao

---

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

So surely you can see why this system (where wages are predetermined by your employer and where the only incentive to do well at your profession is essentially a dangling carrot) would be horribly flawed, right?

It's almost comical how your takedowns of socialism can be used to define what's currently happening under capitalism to a tee.

Bro you are pissed off because you arent getting paid enough and you hate your job. You need a new job imo. I think you are proly decent guy who means well ftr but you seem entitled too. You are sort of dude immigrants are blowing out of the water, i would be a nationalist if i were you.

I get there are levels to what youre saying. I know how being a great worker in certain fields ends up with more workload for same money. But like i said, if you deserve more, then you have the leverage to demand more. And if you cant demand more, you have the skills to go somewhere better and make more. And if you dont have either of those..? You are not as valuable as you think you are.

I havent directly mentioned socialism at all and the other guy i was talking to wasnt either. Thats where *community owns the business , right, and tries to make things more fair through social engineering. So if your employer doesn't set your wage, who does? You? Where is that a thing at. Someone has to approve it or everyone would say, i deserve 100$+ a fuckin hour. Why not

Questionmarktarius posted...

Would you want reception job paid by commission?

I'd want employees to be paid proportionately to what their labor provides to the business. Whether that's commission based or not.

But you're missing the point in that my post was a rebuttal to the idea that socialism leads to everybody's labor being treated equally when this already happens under capitalism.

---

you dont work Shabba, and lmao isnt an argument. Not evn sure what your point is

SocksForWokMAX5 posted...

Want to be wealthy? Spend less than you make.

So for millions of unemployed and homeless people: starve

---

Doesn't seem like its even started yet when expensive electronics and houses are flying off the market.

Keith_Valentine posted...

you dont work Shabba, and lmao isnt an argument. Not evn sure what your point is

Lol I started working when I was 15 buddy, and my point was that its funny you mocked someone as a superman whos going to magically eliminate poverty very shortly after you fawned over your boss for his superman-like ability to forget more than youve ever known and drag you out of poverty into luxury.

---

ZMythos posted...

So for millions of unemployed and homeless people: starve

Well obviously, those people could just find a job and make money because if conservatives have taught me anything, it's that complex societal problems always have a simple, dumbed-down solution that completely ignores current societal conditions.

---

Shablagoo posted...

Lol I started working when I was 15 buddy, and my point was that its funny you mocked someone as a superman whos going to magically eliminate poverty very shortly after you fawned over your boss for his superman-like ability to forget more than youve ever known and drag you out of poverty into luxury.

Sure you started, i dont think you do now.

The message was that user was railing against the injustices of capitalism because poverty exists. So i say, wtf are you gonna do, eliminate it on a national level? Thats never happened, its like saying im going to eliminate sickness or pain. You could never engineer a perfectly equal society, because people arent equal or perfect. Some will always rise above others. Look at the US, many of the poor live lifestyles that would be lavish to a majority of the world that is literally starving to death. We have obese poor people, being fat itself used to be a sign of high status because most people could barely afford food.

So as the standard gets higher so do the expectations. For example i suggested months ago people complaining about corona and money might have to cancel their internet or satellite tv. And they got pissed off and said they shouldnt have to live like a 3rd world country and the government should pay their bills. Thoughts like that barely existed in the recent past. People are more and more dependent on government and its a weakness.

I drug myself out of poverty, that was the other point. By working for someone else and following his vision. Then me suggesting i deserved the same profits as him was ridiculous. So the parallel you were trying to make was so far out it doesnt even make sense imo.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Well obviously, those people could just find a job and make money because if conservatives have taught me anything, it's that complex societal problems always have a simple, dumbed-down solution that completely ignores current societal conditions.

You mean the simple solution of increasing minimum wage, that essentially creates a growing "unhireable" class?

Pretty shitty troll topic.

KiwiTerraRizing posted...

Its a widely accepted economic fact that eventually so much wealth is hoarded that people cant buy goods to support businesses and the whole thing collapses.

No resemblance to reality and fundamentally misinterprets the notion of wealth. It reflects the juvenile understanding of wealth taught by shows like Ducktales where you have nonsense like giant money banks. When people talk about something "having" money, they're generally only talking net worth which is an evaluation of everything they own. And it's possible to have a large net worth while still being cash poor. Even when Elon Musk was worth a fortune, there was a point when he was forced to borrow money to cover his bills

Kingbuffet posted...

Just look at Bezos, he literally could buy someone a house everyday to the next 2,000 years and still be a billionaire. Imagine having immense power to do good but instead hoarding that power to yourself

Almost all of Bezos's "wealth" is tied to his Amazon shares. It's not just money sitting there, it's an entire fucking company.

---

People on this board really refuse to learn what hoarding means lmao

Jeff Bezos: liquidates $2 billion in less than a week in 2019

Simps4Capitalists: no no his wealth is imaginary, you actually have more money than him tbh, please look the other way

---

Kinda weird so many people in here don't seem to understand George Orwell. Seems like they'd have us believe he was a capitalist lol

---

Keith_Valentine posted...

Why do you keep bringing up women f***ing you for your beliefs?

You keep trying to change the subject, you should probably stop.

Keith_Valentine posted...

People primarily act out of self interest. Being driven by profit has always been a huge motivation.

And that isn't conducive to society running properly, when it comes to resource management and distribution, so we should do our best to mitigate and eliminate it.

Keith_Valentine posted...

Youre totally reduced to being evasive and sarcastic at this point, people can make up their own minds. Fun chat , friend request comin your way baby

So, you've given up on arguing about the demerits of capitalism? Cool.

---

Questionmarktarius posted...

You mean the simple solution of increasing minimum wage, that essentially creates a growing "unhireable" class?

You'd almost have a point if a minimum wage increase was meant to be a long-term fix, and not an immediate, temporary solution to combat growing income inequality.

---