Board 8 > Just in case you thought Cyberpunk couldn't get delayed again

(+) Yeah! (+)

People like CDPR because of their pro-gamer practices, not because they treat their developers well. Same with EA, but in reverse.

KamikazePotato posted...

https://twitter.com/Sosowski/status/1321446492746469376

Uh, 10% of revenue goes to the employees every year. Hence the "like in recent years" part.
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I think the point is the later in the year you put that release date the smaller the amount that 10% is going to be, so to stress something like "hey remember you'll be getting 10% of the profit from 2020" and now this sucks

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UltimaterializerX posted...

I can almost guarantee the ones bitching are the people who want 8 hour days with endless breaks who cant keep up with the ones willing to work 12-16 hour days. These are not hot takes; this is the type of junk management always has to deal with in any job. Whiny bitches who play politics on people better than them.

The people not complaining are the ones who know going in Okay its fuckin go time, lets do this?.

You know who facilitates crunch culture in any company? The employees. And this is a good thing. You want people with great work ethic who dont bitch. Those are the ones who get more pay and extra perks.

This...is just a terrible viewpoint.

Who wants to live to work? People with a "great work ethic" would be able to get the job done without having to spend their life at the office. It's absolutely on management to manage expectations (both internal and external) and schedules to avoid this problem. And if they don't know how long it's going to take, maybe don't give a release date!

The idea that we should all be wage slaves, so that the company can benefit is nonsense. God forbid someone is a single parent and has to take care of their kid during the crunch. Clearly, without being able to devote their every waking hour to the company, it shows their terrible ethics in putting family before work. Fire them on the spot.

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Just ignore ulti (either by just scrolling by the message or actually ignoring him, up to you), it's really not worth discussing it with him

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Eh I do think if you're trying to pursue a career in the arts more should be expected from you than a typical 40 hour a week job, but what they're going through now is insane.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

Eh I do think if you're trying to pursue a career in the arts more should be expected from you than a typical 40 hour a week job, but what they're going through now is insane.

Why?

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And to be more specific with a follow up question, why should it extend to something like game development?

Even if you argue more should be expected of the arts, game development is not your typical "art" piece/performance/whatever. Development is (supposed to be) a very structured field, with specific policies and procedures and so on. Any time you're extending past normal work hours, it means that structure either wasn't there, or it failed, and that's typically on management. It happens far too often, but it's not something to just shrug off as part of the job. It means changes need to be made to address the problem.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Why?

Because when working with the arts you're working with someone's vision and your goal is to help that vision come to life. If you're not willing to put in time and effort to help make a vision come to light why are you there?

There's a ton of jobs that are easier to get into as well as pay more and have better working conditions. So there's really no reason to work in the arts unless your passionate about what you're doing.

To be fair though many of the corporations doing this like EA and Blizzard don't really care about the art anymore and are just in it for the money, so yeah corporations can still go fuck themselves, but ask any successful independent artist how much they had to work to get to where they're at and it'll be well over 40 hours a week

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BetrayedTangy posted...

Because when working with the arts you're working with someone's vision and your goal is to help that vision come to life. If you're not willing to put in time and effort to help make a vision come to light why are you there?

There's a ton of jobs that are easier to get into as well as pay more and have better working conditions. So there's really no reason to work in the arts unless your passionate about what you're doing.

Yeah this is a terrible mentality.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Yeah this is a terrible mentality.

I'd rather work 60 hours a week making less and doing something I love than doing what I am now.

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It's totally tragedy of the commons. Working in arts absolutely should not require more effort, but if your coworker is working 20 hours of unpaid overtime a week because PASSION then your boss is going to judge you against him.

It's dumb

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BetrayedTangy posted...

Because when working with the arts you're working with someone's vision and your goal is to help that vision come to life. If you're not willing to put in time and effort to help make a vision come to light why are you there?

There's a ton of jobs that are easier to get into as well as pay more and have better working conditions. So there's really no reason to work in the arts unless your passionate about what you're doing.

To be fair though many of the corporations doing this like EA and Blizzard don't really care about the art anymore and are just in it for the money, so yeah corporations can still go fuck themselves, but ask any successful independent artist how much they had to work to get to where they're at and it'll be well over 40 hours a week

Okay but development absolutely does not work that way or else it could just go on forever. When you're developing something, be it a game, a website, an app, whatever, it's the job of management/the project owner/whoever is in charge to take that vision and make it into something specific and realizable, with actual scheduling and time management and policies and procedures, and plans for what to do about problems with time management, and so on. It may be different if it's some indie passion project being made by like two people, but when you actually have people working for you, you can't just say "You're going to work however long I want you to until we reach whatever my non-specific vision is."

What you're describing is fine for a passion project that you're working on yourself, or with a friend or small group or whatever, but companies absolutely can not and should not function that way. That's how people LOSE their passion for something.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

I'd rather work 60 hours a week making less and doing something I love than doing what I am now.

Oooor you can work 40 hours a week doing the thing you love, because a job based on passion is still a job that deserves the same standards everyone else gets.

Accepting anything different is allowing yourself to be exploited by a system that doesn't give two shits about you. Your passion is a commodity for a board of directors to justify paying you less and overworking you. It'll only get worse as time goes on - 60 hours will become 80 will become 100. By the end of it you'll wonder why you ever loved doing this in the first place, your passion just another resource used to fuel the machine, and once its been wrung dry and you quit, some other starry-eyed newbie will take your place.

"I'm okay with working more because X" is an extremely dangerous slippery slope that should ALWAYS be heavily criticized. The end result of corporations taking advantage of passion and good will is Japan, which is going to collapse in a few decades because no one has time to have kids.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

I'd rather work 60 hours a week making less and doing something I love than doing what I am now.

If you were working for yourself, or an independent artist, sure. Working for a corporation is different.


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KamikazePotato posted...

Stuff

Literally all of this. Thank you for perfectly encapsulating what I intended to say and sparing me the effort.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Do you think hedge fund managers and CEOs make it to every little league game? I understand not liking a crazy schedule, but how do you think the most successful people in any industry get to where theyre at?

I don't think you can really compare hedge fund managers and CEOs to your "rank and file" programmers and the like. Most of those truly do benefit (many to a tremendous monetary extent) from the success of their company.

With that said, how many of those same higher ups are completely mal-adjusted people, precisely BECAUSE they put work over personal life. Marriages falling apart, addiction issues, etc. Do you really think on their death bed those people are happy they spent 30 extra hours a week making more money instead of spending time with their family?

I simply cannot agree with the notion that success must be a product of the time you put in.

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masterplum posted...

It's totally tragedy of the commons. Working in arts absolutely should not require more effort, but if your coworker is working 20 hours of unpaid overtime a week because PASSION then your boss is going to judge you against him.

Well that's going to happen in any field. The people doing extra work are generally the ones getting it with raises and promotions.

And I was totally in agreeance that the current conditions are insane. I just don't think the arts should be held to the same standard as 'normal' jobs, because that's how you lose out on the art. Especially if overtime stops being an option entirely or you're not allowed to do some work at home. I agree the corporations need more regulation, but too much can be bad.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

The people doing extra work are generally the ones getting it with raises and promotions.

Citation needed

BetrayedTangy posted...

I agree the corporations need more regulation, but too much can be bad.

Objectively wrong

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KamikazePotato posted...

Citation needed

Is personal experience enough? At my old job, I hit management right away as well as ended up being one of the higher paid managers through raises by the time I left

KamikazePotato posted...

Objectively wrong

Nah my current job is overly regulated because they don't want a union and it's a shit show. Call offs are overly frequent, requiring the employees that regularly show up to double productivity. Overtime is generally not allowed at all, even for those who need it and if you're working full time. You have no leeway over your schedule

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BetrayedTangy posted...

And I was totally in agreeance that the current conditions are insane. I just don't think the arts should be held to the same standard as 'normal' jobs, because that's how you lose out on the art. Especially if overtime stops being an option entirely or you're not allowed to do some work at home. I agree the corporations need more regulation, but too much can be bad.

What do you mean "lose out on the art"? Art is labor and artists need money to pay the bills. The idea that these are two unrelated things, that artists need to work harder or have a "real" job while they struggle to "make it" is bad! It's how the world works, but it's not ideal.

To give a concrete example we can compare indie games to AAA games. They're more personal and "artistic" but still pay the bills - so you see things like Kickstarter or Epic exclusivity or working with larger publishers. Crunch can still happen with indies and it doesn't become better just because it's more artistic or whatever.

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You shouldn't need crunch or overtime, is the thing. Your project should be well managed enough to know when it is or is not appropriate to announce a release date, and, like-wise, when it is or is not appropriate to announce a delay. That's a self-created problem.

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I think some people have it a little backwards here. Most would agree that you have to pay someone extra/give them better conditions to work a job they hate, so wouldn't the reverse be true as well?

I'd agree with the unpaid overtime thing, but some game companies do pay for the overtime (Epic, for example), and unpaid overtime is illegal in several countries already.
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Unforeseen events do happen and the time games are released do matter. You also can't just hire a bunch of quality people for three months to avoid the crunch in some jobs.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

I think some people have it a little backwards here. Most would agree that you have to pay someone extra/give them better conditions to work a job they hate, so wouldn't the reverse be true as well?

No, the labor has a fair value and people should be paid that value and not have to endure hostile conditions. That's it.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

I think some people have it a little backwards here. Most would agree that you have to pay someone extra/give them better conditions to work a job they hate, so wouldn't the reverse be true as well?

...Not really?

You may be willing to accept a pay cut to work a job you'll like more, sure. But "Well, they like their job, so we can overwork them and treat them like shit, right?" should never, ever be a thing.

People love to say stuff like "I'd gladly work 60 hours at a job I love!" until they actually have to do it constantly. The more overworked/under-appreciated you are, at any job, the more likely you are to stop loving that job.

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