Current Events > J.J. Abrams Star Trek vs Star Wars

(+) Yeah! (+)

I remember enjoying both on my first viewing (except for TFA), but many argue that Abrams didn't understand either franchise and went for big blockbuster money.

Force Awakens > JJ Star Trek > Rise of Skywalker

But I would fundamentally agree that his Star Trek movies vastly dumbed down the franchise, but so did the Next Gen films as well to a degree.

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Star Trek 2009 was decent
Into Darkness was not good
Beyond was good, but by that point the goodwill had been burnt up and now the film series is pretty much dead

TFA is alright
TLJ is not good
TRoS is just outright bad
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Both of them copied their franchises in superficial ways without really understanding what theyre about.

I thought that TFA & TLJ were good, and RoS was decent.

I thought that the first Star Trek movie in the reboot series was good, and the second one was decent. I haven't seen the third one

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Star Trek 2009 > TFA > TRoS > Into Darkness

I was never a Trek fan, so I quite enjoyed the reboot for what it was; I wouldn't disparage longtime fans for being disappointed in it, though. TFA was at least fairly entertaining. TRoS was a hot mess, but at least had tiny little parts that I enjoyed watching. Even without being a Trek fan (but still having absorbed enough relevant pop culture over the years), Into Darkness pissed me off from start to finish with how blatant every facet of the movie bent over backwards to cater to nostalgia and callbacks, to the point where it had next to no identity of its own.

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the Star Trek movies are more consistently enjoyable (although ID was pretty bad)

after TFA the sequels just went right into the toilet

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K181 posted...

But I would fundamentally agree that his Star Trek movies vastly dumbed down the franchise, but so did the Next Gen films as well to a degree.

Star Trek is notorious for the flip-flopping quality of its films. It seems like for every "Wrath of Khan" and "First Contact" there's a "Final Frontier" and "Insurrection"

You'd think that after three decades they'd learn that Star Trek just does not translate well into blockbuster action movies. but there you have it

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https://youtu.be/5PaUTnk9k9Y

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Well, Force Awakens is a good movie, so Star Wars wins, I guess.
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of course, considering the overall quality of Discovery and Picard, I think it's fair to say nobody knows what to do with the franchise...

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TFA gave us Finn a black lead co-lead to Star Wars. That was big.

Then RJ fucked up .

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HylianFox posted...

of course, considering the overall quality of Discovery and Picard, I think it's fair to say nobody knows what to do with the franchise...

Lower decks is pretty good unless youre one of those folks with a stick up your ass. Is it as good as nostalgia trek naw but its the best thing since the first JJ movie or maybe Enterprise

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Lower Decks suffers from inconsistent characterization and "hey, remember this?" style humor without making an actual joke

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HylianFox posted...

Lower Decks suffers from inconsistent characterization and "hey, remember this?" style humor without making an actual joke

Fun enough though...its had what 4 episodes so far?

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That being said, at least Lower Decks looks and feels like an actual Star Trek show

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cjsdowg posted...

TFA gave us Finn a black lead co-lead to Star Wars. That was big.

Then RJ fucked up .

Finn had just as much character development and importance in The Last Jedi as he did in Force Awakens. It wasn't until TROS that he was totally pushed to the side. He should have just died at the end of TLJ to save the Resistance (which would have been an even more satisfying ending in TLJ for his character arc), he literally did nothing in TROS.

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AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Finn had just as much character development and importance in The Last Jedi as he did in Force Awakens. It wasn't until TLJ that he was totally pushed to the side. He should have just died at the end of TLJ to save the Resistance (which would have been an even more satisfying ending in TLJ for his character arc), he literally did nothing in TLJ.

I am guessing you mistaked TLJ with TROS. However you are right he did nothing in TLJ. Even the actor called that out.

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HylianFox posted...

Star Trek is notorious for the flip-flopping quality of its films. It seems like for every "Wrath of Khan" and "First Contact" there's a "Final Frontier" and "Insurrection"

You'd think that after three decades they'd learn that Star Trek just does not translate well into blockbuster action movies. but there you have it

Except Wrath of Khan sucked. Into Darkness was far better because it actually portrayed an advanced human as an advanced human. He was a pushover in the Star Trek episode and the movie was basically just "Angry grandpa gets lost in space while dragging his grandchildren along with him." I for the life of me cannot understand why people think this is such a great movie. There was absolutely no reason to believe he was an advanced human at all based on the show/movie. The Abraham's movie at least showed that to the audience, that yes he is superior. I mean he lost a fight to Kirk for fucks sake when in reality he should have straight up murdered him in less then ten seconds.

I will fight anyone I need to.

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cjsdowg posted...

I am guessing you mistaked TLJ with TROS. However you are right he did nothing in TLJ. Even the actor called that out.

Lol yeah definitely mixed up the acronyms in my post, that was bad. He did more in TLJ than he did in both JJ Abrams movies combined (which is easy since he did absolutely nothing in TROS).

When did the actor call out that he did nothing at all in The Last Jedi or call out Rian Johnson?

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AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Lol yeah definitely mixed up the acronyms in my post, that was bad. He did more in TLJ than he did in both JJ Abrams movies combined (which is easy since he did absolutely nothing in TROS).

When did the actor call out that he did nothing at all in The Last Jedi or call out Rian Johnson?

He complained about the last Jedi.

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/john-boyega-star-wars-flaws-disagreed-last-jedi-choices-1202195985/

In the TFA he drove the whole plot. The movie would not have worked if Finn wasn't there. In TLJ he re-learns the same less in a horrible manner, and if he wasn't in the movie the movie would have went in much the same .

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cjsdowg posted...

He complained about the last Jedi.

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/john-boyega-star-wars-flaws-disagreed-last-jedi-choices-1202195985/

In the TFA he drove the whole plot. The movie would not have worked if Finn wasn't there. In TLJ he re-learns the same less in a horrible manner, and if he wasn't in the movie the movie would have went in much the same .

All he complained about there was that the 3 main characters (Finn/Poe/Rey) were separated. Han and Leia were key to Luke's journey (which was the main story), but Finn and Poe don't have any effect on Rey's journey (which is supposed to be the equivalent main story). Also this interview is clearly before he could talk about TROS lol where he was totally worthless.

I also disagree that Finn learned the same lesson in TFA and TLJ. In Force Awakens, Finn's character arc goes from being a selfish "I just want to escape to the edge of the galaxy" motivation to caring about Rey and wanting to save her. He doesn't give a shit about the Resistance, their goals just happen to be similar, he is still very selfish.

In TLJ, Finn goes from only caring about Rey and wanting to save her (he is still a coward, despite regular Resistance people thinking of him as a hero, as shown in the first Rose scene), to learning to become that hero, doing everything he can to stop injustices and fight for others, even willing to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance.

In TROS he went from caring about the Resistance to... maybe being Force sensitive but too afraid to say anything?

None of the characters were as important in The Last Jedi, which seems to be the theme of the story. Poe and Finn both just end up making things worse for everyone despite their best efforts, Rey did nothing at all but move some rocks at the end. I didn't really like that very much, but I guess that is what Rian Johnson was going for.

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I also disagree that Finn learned the same lesson in TFA and TLJ. In Force Awakens, Finn's character arc goes from being a selfish "I just want to escape to the edge of the galaxy" motivation to caring about Rey and wanting to save her. He doesn't give a shit about the Resistance, their goals just happen to be similar, he is still very selfish.

The people who think Finn, was done right in TLJ are the only people to call him selfish and coward. The first thing that Finn did when got the Civilization was try to save Rey when he assumed she was getting mugged. He didn't know her and had No reason to the help her. That is literally the opposite of being a coward or selfish. And already risked his life to save others at least 4 times before the TLJ. If you want to count the comics he did it even more. Even risking him life to the save animals.


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cjsdowg posted...

The people who think Finn, was done right in TLJ are the only people to call him selfish and coward. The first thing that Finn did when got the Civilization was try to save Rey when he assumed she was getting mugged. He didn't know her and had No reason to the help her. That is literally the opposite of being a coward or selfish. And already risked his life to save others at least 4 times before the TLJ. If you want to count the comics he did it even more. Even risking him life to the save animals.

Just nitpicking a single word in my post? Guess you agree with the rest.

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AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Just nitpicking a single word in my post? Guess you agree with the rest.

Saying he is a coward and selfish are a big part of what you wrote. If those things are wrong which they are, then most of the other stuff you wrote falls apart.

TLJ took him at of the main action for no reason. TFA he was running away and then HE made the choice to turn back around. From there he helps to blow up star Killer Base and faces down Kylo.

Now he needs Rose to lecture him about war and slavery. A literally kidnapped child soldier being talked down to about war and slavery. That is horrible righting.

And moreover he finds out that both sides support the people in CB. So he has less reason to the side with the "heroes'

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I'm just going to jump in and say, holy shit how did anyone even remotely enjoy any part of Rise of Skywalker? That was legitimately like a 1/10 movie.

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I voted for Star Trek on the basis that new Star Wars is atrocious. It would be a huge accomplishment for him to have fucked up Trek more than that.

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cjsdowg posted...

Saying he is a coward and selfish are a big part of what you wrote. If those things are wrong which they are, then most of the other stuff you wrote falls apart.

TLJ took him at of the main action for no reason. TFA he was running away and then HE made the choice to turn back around. From there he helps to blow up star Killer Base and faces down Kylo.

Now he needs Rose to lecture him about war and slavery. A literally kidnapped child soldier being talked down to about war and slavery. That is horrible righting.

And moreover he finds out that both sides support the people in CB. So he has less reason to the side with the "heroes'

He only wanted to help the Resistance because he wanted to rescue Rey, thats the only reason he helped them attack Starkiller Base and the only reason he faced down Kylo.

Who was a part of the main action in The Last Jedi? Finn was pretty key in Poes plan to disable the tracking device so the resistance could escape. Poe was just sitting on the ship the entire movie, was that the main action? Was Rey just sitting on Lukes planet part of the main action? Finn was put in charge of finding the only person who could get them on the ship, then actually went on Snokes ship and tried to disable the tracker. You might not like Finns trek to Cantobite, but that was absolutely critical for their plan to escape. He was just as important as anyone else in the movie.

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AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

He only wanted to help the Resistance because he wanted to rescue Rey, thats the only reason he helped them attack Starkiller Base and the only reason he faced down Kylo.

Who was a part of the main action in The Last Jedi? Finn was pretty key in Poes plan to disable the tracking device so the resistance could escape. Poe was just sitting on the ship the entire movie, was that the main action? Was Rey just sitting on Lukes planet part of the main action? Finn was put in charge of finding the only person who could get them on the ship, then actually went on Snokes ship and tried to disable the tracker. You might not like Finns trek to Cantobite, but that was absolutely critical for their plan to escape. He was just as important as anyone else in the movie.

No he wasn't. If you leave Finn out of TLJ. NOTHING at all changes in the movie. RJ said that he wanted to Finn to be a coma for the whole movie and guess what he wrote him in a way where he had the same impact as if he did. Before TLJ Finn was co lead. After TLJ it was kylo and RJ even pushed up that horrible ship that is Reylo. And yeah Rey did have the main action in the movie. Some people suggest oh CB was how he joined the resistance. It took han a few mins to the after he left. He didn't take him being written out of a movie for that to happen. And like I said before. Nothing on CB would have changed him to be on resistance.

First: He saw the FO do far worse things, then what was going on in CB.
Next: FO didn't run CB that was someone else. And the resistance helped to fund it to'.
Thus: After TLJ Finn should have been less likely to join them not more.


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The first Star Trek reboot movie was pretty good-- other than the blinding white backgrounds & lens flare out the ass-- with some particularly great casting.

I hated Into Darkness & the ST basically murdered Star Wars for me.

NightMarishPie posted...

I'm just going to jump in and say, holy shit how did anyone even remotely enjoy any part of Rise of Skywalker? That was legitimately like a 1/10 movie.

Some of the lines were funny, and some of the big set pieces at the end are some of the best scenes in the franchise. Also that bit where a multitude of ships just showed up out of nowhere and start murking the big bad invincible army was legitimately rousing, and made me feel like a kid again, watching a Star Wars, and you better believe that "I felt like a kid again, without the bad parts" is something I'm going to cherish violently. Adam Driver also does a much better job expressing the Dark Side/Light Side duality of character/s in performance than I imagined was ever possible, though it was still rushed. He has a few minutes to show you what kind of person Ben Solo was/could have been, and it utterly shames the entire prequel trilogy and its portrayal of Anakin, and he barely even gets to speak (and thats probably a good thing considering Anakin, haha).

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cjsdowg posted...

No he wasn't. If you leave Finn out of TLJ. NOTHING at all changes in the movie. RJ said that he wanted to Finn to be a coma for the whole movie and guess what he wrote him in a way where he had the same impact as if he did. Before TLJ Finn was co lead. After TLJ it was kylo and RJ even pushed up that horrible ship that is Reylo. And yeah Rey did have the main action in the movie. Some people suggest oh CB was how he joined the resistance. It took han a few mins to the after he left. He didn't take him being written out of a movie for that to happen. And like I said before. Nothing on CB would have changed him to be on resistance.

First: He saw the FO do far worse things, then what was going on in CB.
Next: FO didn't run CB that was someone else. And the resistance helped to fund it to'.
Thus: After TLJ Finn should have been less likely to join them not more.

Gonna need some more evidence besides a simple joke that Rian Johnson wanted Finn in a coma the whole move lol

Just because you didnt like Finns storyline in TLJ doesnt mean it was non existent or unimportant, and he had way more impact than he did in Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker.

And blame JJ for the Reylo trash

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AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Gonna need some more evidence besides a simple joke that Rian Johnson wanted Finn in a coma the whole move lol

Just because you didnt like Finns storyline in TLJ doesnt mean it was non existent or unimportant, and he had way more impact than he did in Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker.

And blame JJ for the Reylo trash

Suggesting that he had more impact in TLJ then he did TFA is 100% not true. If you take Finn out of the TFA the movie literally can't happen. If you take him out of TLJ then nothing changes.

How do you blame JJ for Reylo . In TFA they just try to kill each other , he minds violates her, he knocks her out. A few hows later in TLJ she has forgetting Finn exist and is making goo goo eyes at Kylo.

And what more evidence do you need. Before TLJ Finn was the co lead. Rain said he wanted to that to Kylo . And he was turned into fool that had to have Rose teach him basic shit.


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finn had no story in tlj lol man cmon

Trek > Wars

Let's just keep JJ far from Red Dwarf, please.