Poll of the Day > How has it been proposed to pay for UBI?

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LinkPizza 08/24/20 5:15:57 PM #52:	Joker_X_II posted... oh shut up,..."I'm the first"?....fuck off.... Yeah. You are. We talk about UBI all the time here. It was a big topic back when Andrew Yang brought it up. And no one ever mentioned being an artist. Apparently, you werent here around then, so it make sense you dont know what the board was talking about... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943773380] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>oh shut up,..."I'm the first"?....fuck off....</quote> Yeah. You are. We talk about UBI all the time here. It was a big topic back when Andrew Yang brought it up. And no one ever mentioned being an artist. Apparently, you werent here around then, so it make sense you dont know what the board was talking about...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mead 08/24/20 5:26:11 PM #53:	Joker_X_II posted... oh shut up,..."I'm the first"?....fuck off.... ALL UBI TOPICS devolve into it's principle purpose, discussions dig into the kernel of such ventures to explore whether or not such a program is feasible to begin with. Even on philosophical side of the discussion pop up as to an individuals "purpose" in their own life and society at large when all they do is mooch for a living. you dont seem capable of debating the issue so youre just creating a weak strawman argument to oppose that no one here is even using pretty lazy, especially when youre complaining about supposed mooching --- The Betrayer <cite>Mead posted [p:943773704] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted... </cite> <quote>oh shut up,..."I'm the first"?....fuck off.... ALL UBI TOPICS devolve into it's principle purpose, discussions dig into the kernel of such ventures to explore whether or not such a program is feasible to begin with. Even on philosophical side of the discussion pop up as to an individuals "purpose" in their own life and society at large when all they do is mooch for a living.</quote> you dont seem capable of debating the issue so youre just creating a weak strawman argument to oppose that no one here is even using pretty lazy, especially when youre complaining about supposed mooching </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Joker_X_II 08/24/20 6:04:20 PM #54:	LinkPizza posted... Yeah. You are. We talk about UBI all the time here. It was a big topic back when Andrew Yang brought it up. And no one ever mentioned being an artist. Apparently, you werent here around then, so it make sense you dont know what the board was talking about... Nice fiction you created, maybe you should pay more attention to the details. You accuse me of not knowing the history of the UBI topic on the PoTD forum and already on this thread we have people mentioning ON THIS THREAD to 'express their talents elsewhere' and "stop playing videogames, (as a sarcastic retort to my 'let's all be artist' comment)"....already there is this mindset that UBI will shed a person's need to perform any practical work so they can lean toward more ARTISTIC ventures. nice try... Mead posted... you dont seem capable of debating the issue so youre just creating a weak strawman argument to oppose that no one here is even using pretty lazy, especially when youre complaining about supposed mooching Considering my opinion goes against the grain of the typical socialist/communist/Marxist backed opinions on gFAQs, I seriously doubt any anti-UBI opinion gets properly heard, because these types already believe UBI is the end-all-be-all solution to every problem the Western countries have. I mean you have LinkPizza already lubing up that memory-hole, so you can all sound like UBI champions. MOOCHING is a very legit concern going against UBI....and you're just blowing it off as a point of an insincere conversation?.....thanks for proving my point. Gotta push that socialist agenda somehow, eh? There is no strawman argument here when facts prove of "welfare culture and dependancy" within our country already. Google search. If any "strawman" is being created is by you and linkpizza only cherry-picking the "noblest" of people who had their job taken by a robot and he should be compensated. The "universal" in UBI means the money is for everyone, which means it'll ALSO go to "baby factory" single moms who willing breed to increase their welfare income, but you don't talk about "those" people, you have to focus the narrative of the 'good innocent people' blindsided by technological progress. Nothing lazy about my comment, since you lot tend to sugar-coat demographics. --- PSA: "Real Gamers" don't pay for Micro-transactions. Pro-tip: You're not 'playing' the game, if you're paying your way through it. <cite>Joker_X_II posted [p:943775123] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Yeah. You are. We talk about UBI all the time here. It was a big topic back when Andrew Yang brought it up. And no one ever mentioned being an artist. Apparently, you werent here around then, so it make sense you dont know what the board was talking about...</quote> Nice fiction you created, maybe you should pay more attention to the details. You accuse me of not knowing the history of the UBI topic on the PoTD forum and already on this thread we have people mentioning ON THIS THREAD to 'express their talents elsewhere' and "stop playing videogames, (as a sarcastic retort to my 'let's all be artist' comment)"....already there is this mindset that UBI will shed a person's need to perform any practical work so they can lean toward more ARTISTIC ventures. nice try... Mead posted... </cite> <quote>you dont seem capable of debating the issue so youre just creating a weak strawman argument to oppose that no one here is even using pretty lazy, especially when youre complaining about supposed mooching</quote> Considering my opinion goes against the grain of the typical socialist/communist/Marxist backed opinions on gFAQs, I seriously doubt any anti-UBI opinion gets properly heard, because these types already believe UBI is the end-all-be-all solution to every problem the Western countries have. I mean you have LinkPizza already lubing up that memory-hole, so you can all sound like UBI champions. MOOCHING is a very legit concern going against UBI....and you're just blowing it off as a point of an insincere conversation?.....thanks for proving my point. Gotta push that socialist agenda somehow, eh? There is no strawman argument here when facts prove of "welfare culture and dependancy" within our country already. Google search. If any "strawman" is being created is by you and linkpizza only cherry-picking the "noblest" of people who had their job taken by a robot and he should be compensated. The "universal" in UBI means the money is for everyone, which means it'll ALSO go to "baby factory" single moms who willing breed to increase their welfare income, but you don't talk about "those" people, you have to focus the narrative of the 'good innocent people' blindsided by technological progress. Nothing lazy about my comment, since you lot tend to sugar-coat demographics. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 6:10:52 PM #55:	Joker_X_II posted... Nice fiction you created, maybe you should pay more attention to the details. You accuse me of not knowing the history of the UBI topic on the PoTD forum and already on this thread we have people mentioning ON THIS THREAD to 'express their talents elsewhere' and "stop playing videogames, (as a sarcastic retort to my 'let's all be artist' comment)"....already there is this mindset that UBI will shed a person's need to perform any practical work so they can lean toward more ARTISTIC ventures. nice try... Youre the one that needs to pay more attention to detail. Or pay attention at all. How can you tell us what we talk about when you only showed up here like a few months ago? And can even stop getting in trouble every time you come back. Unlike you, I have been around for years. And I posted in most, of not all, of the UBI topics. One name I didnt see much was Joker_X_II, though. So, also unlike you, I have first hand knowledge of those topics. You specifically mentioned everyone wanting to be an artist in a previous post. And you at like the first person I remember saying something like that. Some people did talk about starting their own business, or finding a hobby. Many ever said they would keep working. Youre the only one creating a fiction here. So, nice try... Also, Idk where your line of thinking is for what I think about UBI, but Im not for or against it. In the end, I plan to keep working either way. I could take it or leave it. Its doesnt matter to me... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943775388] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>Nice fiction you created, maybe you should pay more attention to the details. You accuse me of not knowing the history of the UBI topic on the PoTD forum and already on this thread we have people mentioning ON THIS THREAD to 'express their talents elsewhere' and "stop playing videogames, (as a sarcastic retort to my 'let's all be artist' comment)"....already there is this mindset that UBI will shed a person's need to perform any practical work so they can lean toward more ARTISTIC ventures. nice try...</quote> Youre the one that needs to pay more attention to detail. Or pay attention at all. How can you tell us what we talk about when you only showed up here like a few months ago? And can even stop getting in trouble every time you come back. Unlike you, I have been around for years. And I posted in most, of not all, of the UBI topics. One name I didnt see much was Joker_X_II, though. So, also unlike you, I have first hand knowledge of those topics. You specifically mentioned everyone wanting to be an artist in a previous post. And you at like the first person I remember saying something like that. Some people did talk about starting their own business, or finding a hobby. Many ever said they would keep working. Youre the only one creating a fiction here. So, nice try... Also, Idk where your line of thinking is for what I think about UBI, but Im not for or against it. In the end, I plan to keep working either way. I could take it or leave it. Its doesnt matter to me...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Joker_X_II 08/24/20 6:18:34 PM #56:	LinkPizza posted... Youre the one that needs to pay more attention to detail. Or pay attention at all. How can you tell us what we talk about when you only showed up here like a few months ago? And can even stop getting in trouble every time you come back. Unlike you, I have been around for years. And I posted in most, of not all, of the UBI topics. One name I didnt see much was Joker_X_II, though. So, also unlike you, I have first hand knowledge of those topics. You specifically mentioned everyone wanting to be an artist in a previous post. And you at like the first person I remember saying something like that. Some people did talk about starting their own business, or finding a hobby. Many ever said they would keep working. Youre the only one creating a fiction here. So, nice try... Also, Idk where your line of thinking is for what I think about UBI, but Im not for or against it. In the end, I plan to keep working either way. I could take it or leave it. Its doesnt matter to me... Apparently it does matter to you because you have to act like the "Forum Minuteman" to police posting history to prove some asinine point against established naturalized facts already. Does it really matter when I came to this board, when 1+1=2 has been established long before that? Does it really matter when even before I posted there were already artistically-minded people who are pro-UBI? Eager to cash in that free-money, so we can all be videogame developers and fingerpainters? So stop with the neckbearding and stay on point if you can. "WAH!, I'm on my computer so much I can tell you the exact date and time you said something about something....." --- PSA: "Real Gamers" don't pay for Micro-transactions. Pro-tip: You're not 'playing' the game, if you're paying your way through it. <cite>Joker_X_II posted [p:943775652] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Youre the one that needs to pay more attention to detail. Or pay attention at all. How can you tell us what we talk about when you only showed up here like a few months ago? And can even stop getting in trouble every time you come back. Unlike you, I have been around for years. And I posted in most, of not all, of the UBI topics. One name I didnt see much was Joker_X_II, though. So, also unlike you, I have first hand knowledge of those topics. You specifically mentioned everyone wanting to be an artist in a previous post. And you at like the first person I remember saying something like that. Some people did talk about starting their own business, or finding a hobby. Many ever said they would keep working. Youre the only one creating a fiction here. So, nice try... Also, Idk where your line of thinking is for what I think about UBI, but Im not for or against it. In the end, I plan to keep working either way. I could take it or leave it. Its doesnt matter to me...</quote> Apparently it does matter to you because you have to act like the "Forum Minuteman" to police posting history to prove some asinine point against established naturalized facts already. Does it really matter when I came to this board, when 1+1=2 has been established long before that? Does it really matter when even before I posted there were already artistically-minded people who are pro-UBI? Eager to cash in that free-money, so we can all be videogame developers and fingerpainters? So stop with the neckbearding and stay on point if you can. "WAH!, I'm on my computer so much I can tell you the exact date and time you said something about something....." </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Arcturusisnow 08/24/20 6:34:09 PM #57:	Dynalo posted... He already has the lawyers and accountants on payroll. He wouldn't bother - they would. It's generally their job to find these things and they're not just gonna ignore an easy 12k/year. Given how much they likely make, I doubt they would notice it and thus would indeed ignore it. <cite>Arcturusisnow posted [p:943776256] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Dynalo posted... </cite> <quote>He already has the lawyers and accountants on payroll. He wouldn't bother - they would. It's generally their job to find these things and they're not just gonna ignore an easy 12k/year.</quote>Given how much they likely make, I doubt they would notice it and thus would indeed ignore it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Arcturusisnow 08/24/20 6:37:36 PM #58:	YoukaiSlayer posted... Well, science isn't going to stop unless we go extinct so it's going to happen one way or the other. I imagine most people will have a loss of purpose if they don't have to work that'll probably spark most people into creative/entertainment fields as well as probably an uptick in researchers. The stigma against not having a job will only last until unemployment hits like 30%. Eventually everyone will know 2+ people that just can't find a job no matter how hard they try and it will get normalized. Not me. Gaming 24/7 fuck yeah. <cite>Arcturusisnow posted [p:943776373] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted... </cite> <quote>Well, science isn't going to stop unless we go extinct so it's going to happen one way or the other. I imagine most people will have a loss of purpose if they don't have to work that'll probably spark most people into creative/entertainment fields as well as probably an uptick in researchers. The stigma against not having a job will only last until unemployment hits like 30%. Eventually everyone will know 2+ people that just can't find a job no matter how hard they try and it will get normalized.</quote>Not me. Gaming 24/7 fuck yeah. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 6:38:10 PM #59:	Joker_X_II posted... Apparently it does matter to you because you have to act like the "Forum Minuteman" to police posting history to prove some asinine point against established naturalized facts already. Does it really matter when I came to this board, when 1+1=2 has been established long before that? Does it really matter when even before I posted there were already artistically-minded people who are pro-UBI? Eager to cash in that free-money, so we can all be videogame developers and fingerpainters? So stop with the neckbearding and stay on point if you can. "WAH!, I'm on my computer so much I can tell you the exact date and time you said something about something....." Im not policing anything. But I will call you out for lying. Again, youre the one who mentioned everyone becoming artistic... It sort of matters because youre talking about topics that happened before you came here. And acting like certain things that werent said were said in the topic. So, yeah. Its matters at least a little... Pro-artistic minds for UBI doesnt mean that everyone in the topics posted here were talking about being artistic when UBI came out. And obviously, people can be artistic without UBI... Also, youre the one assuming that everybody will become video game developers and fingerpainters. Many people will probably continue to work the job they have, while many wont work at all. Some will probably even pursue careers they wanted to pursue before, but couldnt because of money. Some maybe video game developers, where a good portion may be something else. Others may start their own business, because they now can. Youte the one thinking everybody has to fit the narrative youve chosen for them... How about stop with your trolling instead? No. I cant tell you the exact date and time. But I could look it up as long as its in a specific place... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943776402] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>Apparently it does matter to you because you have to act like the "Forum Minuteman" to police posting history to prove some asinine point against established naturalized facts already. Does it really matter when I came to this board, when 1+1=2 has been established long before that? Does it really matter when even before I posted there were already artistically-minded people who are pro-UBI? Eager to cash in that free-money, so we can all be videogame developers and fingerpainters? So stop with the neckbearding and stay on point if you can. "WAH!, I'm on my computer so much I can tell you the exact date and time you said something about something....." </quote> Im not policing anything. But I will call you out for lying. Again, youre the one who mentioned everyone becoming artistic... It sort of matters because youre talking about topics that happened before you came here. And acting like certain things that werent said were said in the topic. So, yeah. Its matters at least a little... Pro-artistic minds for UBI doesnt mean that everyone in the topics posted here were talking about being artistic when UBI came out. And obviously, people can be artistic without UBI... Also, youre the one assuming that everybody will become video game developers and fingerpainters. Many people will probably continue to work the job they have, while many wont work at all. Some will probably even pursue careers they wanted to pursue before, but couldnt because of money. Some maybe video game developers, where a good portion may be something else. Others may start their own business, because they now can. Youte the one thinking everybody has to fit the narrative youve chosen for them... How about stop with your trolling instead? No. I cant tell you the exact date and time. But I could look it up as long as its in a specific place...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Joker_X_II 08/24/20 6:43:51 PM #60:	LinkPizza posted... Im not policing anything. yet you can recount the exact moment when I started posting on this board.....stop lying. at least I can provide a rational explanation on UBI contributing to welfare culture, when Mead called me out on it....you have to lie on the fly to pathetically attempt to discredit them by exposing a personality clash via posting history?.. you're pathetic dude. don't bother, you're done. --- PSA: "Real Gamers" don't pay for Micro-transactions. Pro-tip: You're not 'playing' the game, if you're paying your way through it. <cite>Joker_X_II posted [p:943776630] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Im not policing anything.</quote> yet you can recount the exact moment when I started posting on this board.....stop lying. at least I can provide a rational explanation on UBI contributing to welfare culture, when Mead called me out on it....you have to lie on the fly to pathetically attempt to discredit them by exposing a personality clash via posting history?.. you're pathetic dude. don't bother, you're done. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 6:53:59 PM #61:	Joker_X_II posted... yet you can recount the exact moment when I started posting on this board.....stop lying. No I cant. I said a few months ago because thats when I started seeing you post. But I never gave exact dates because I dont have any. So, you stop lying since youre the one doing so... Joker_X_II posted... at least I can provide a rational explanation on UBI contributing to welfare culture, when Mead called me out on it....you have to lie on the fly to pathetically attempt to discredit them by exposing a personality clash via posting history?.. you're pathetic dude. don't bother, you're done. Oh. Ill let you know when Im done. But dont worry about that. Because Im not. As for your other point, when did I say it wasnt contributing to it? I never made any mentioned of welfare culture, did I? And all I did was call out your lying. You were acting like you knew what was happening in topics you were never in because they happened before you came to the board. The only one lying on the fly is you. Claiming you know things that happened in topics you were never a part of. Youre the pathetic one. All youve done since you joined this board in troll and humiliate yourself... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943777006] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>yet you can recount the exact moment when I started posting on this board.....stop lying.</quote> No I cant. I said a few months ago because thats when I started seeing you post. But I never gave exact dates because I dont have any. So, you stop lying since youre the one doing so... Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>at least I can provide a rational explanation on UBI contributing to welfare culture, when Mead called me out on it....you have to lie on the fly to pathetically attempt to discredit them by exposing a personality clash via posting history?.. you're pathetic dude. don't bother, you're done.</quote> Oh. Ill let you know when Im done. But dont worry about that. Because Im not. As for your other point, when did I say it wasnt contributing to it? I never made any mentioned of welfare culture, did I? And all I did was call out your lying. You were acting like you knew what was happening in topics you were never in because they happened before you came to the board. The only one lying on the fly is you. Claiming you know things that happened in topics you were never a part of. Youre the pathetic one. All youve done since you joined this board in troll and humiliate yourself...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mead 08/24/20 6:54:16 PM #62:	Joker_X_II posted... at least I can provide a rational explanation on UBI contributing to welfare culture you made a bunch of claims but without any substance its just stuff youre insisting is true which is the way youve argued on this board every time youve shown up over the last few months right up until you get modded for some playground level insults you start throwing around --- The Betrayer <cite>Mead posted [p:943777015] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted... </cite> <quote>at least I can provide a rational explanation on UBI contributing to welfare culture</quote> you made a bunch of claims but without any substance its just stuff youre insisting is true which is the way youve argued on this board every time youve shown up over the last few months right up until you get modded for some playground level insults you start throwing around </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Joker_X_II 08/24/20 7:16:12 PM #63:	LinkPizza posted... said a few months ago because thats when I started seeing you post. And that's indicative whatever point you're trying to make? Despite the fact that all I did was state base facts about who the pro-UBI types are? Mead posted... its just stuff youre insisting is true Because I'm not sugar-coating demographics like you? "I must be wrong"? You types spend all the energy talking about one individual incident where a few hundred people lost their job because of automation, trying to legitimize UBI based on that ONE situation, but never speak about the thousands of crack-heads and baby factories that have exploited every social assistance program since they were implemented? --- PSA: "Real Gamers" don't pay for Micro-transactions. Pro-tip: You're not 'playing' the game, if you're paying your way through it. <cite>Joker_X_II posted [p:943777891] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>said a few months ago because thats when I started seeing you post.</quote> And that's indicative whatever point you're trying to make? Despite the fact that all I did was state base facts about who the pro-UBI types are? Mead posted... </cite> <quote>its just stuff youre insisting is true</quote> Because I'm not sugar-coating demographics like you? "I must be wrong"? You types spend all the energy talking about one individual incident where a few hundred people lost their job because of automation, trying to legitimize UBI based on that ONE situation, but never speak about the thousands of crack-heads and baby factories that have exploited every social assistance program since they were implemented? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 7:22:29 PM #64:	Joker_X_II posted... And that's indicative whatever point you're trying to make? Yeah. You said, Joker_X_II posted... Nah, I've danced these dances before, and the UBI topic ALWAYS ends with people saying they'd rather be artists than actually do REAL work for a living. But if you only came a few months ago, and missed most of our UBI topics, it would be hard for you to say that, "the UBI topic ALWAYS ends with people saying they'd rather be artists than actually do REAL work for a living." So, that's why I mentioned when you came to this board. Does it make sense yet? Joker_X_II posted... Despite the fact that all I did was state base facts about who the pro-UBI types are? All you did was make baseless assumptions. You provided no evidence of that. There are many pro-UBI types here who have not mentioned going into art. Some said they would keep working, where others wanted to not do anything. Some talked about pursuing hobbies, where others thought about starting their own business... Not every pro-UBI person is going to take up art as a hobby or job like you seem to be suggesting... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943778116] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>And that's indicative whatever point you're trying to make?</quote> Yeah. You said, Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>Nah, I've danced these dances before, and the UBI topic ALWAYS ends with people saying they'd rather be artists than actually do REAL work for a living.</quote> But if you only came a few months ago, and missed most of our UBI topics, it would be hard for you to say that, "the UBI topic ALWAYS ends with people saying they'd rather be artists than actually do REAL work for a living." So, that's why I mentioned when you came to this board. Does it make sense yet? Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>Despite the fact that all I did was state base facts about who the pro-UBI types are?</quote> All you did was make baseless assumptions. You provided no evidence of that. There are many pro-UBI types here who have not mentioned going into art. Some said they would keep working, where others wanted to not do anything. Some talked about pursuing hobbies, where others thought about starting their own business... Not every pro-UBI person is going to take up art as a hobby or job like you seem to be suggesting...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mead 08/24/20 7:23:37 PM #65:	Joker_X_II posted... a few hundred people lost their job because of automation yeah I think Im done, best of luck pal --- The Betrayer <cite>Mead posted [p:943778155] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted... </cite> <quote>a few hundred people lost their job because of automation</quote> yeah I think Im done, best of luck pal </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 08/24/20 7:32:35 PM #66:	First, $1500 per person is certainly enough to live comfortably in most places (you get more if you have kids, double if your married etc). As mentioned prices would probably go down as things were automated more (perhaps not right away, due to initial costs, but over time). Realize that $1500 is the BARE MINIMUM as well, and only there as a floor, most people would hopefully still be working a few days a week (just for sanity if nothing else). Creative jobs would still be in high demand, just most menial jobs would be out. Even things like being a chef/cook, would be around still (Even if automated food was available easily, people would still pay extra for a "real" chef to cook their food, and people like me would LOVE to cook even if I didn't have to (and especially if it was highly appreciated, and part time). There would still be jobs, but probably less then 50% of them honestly, and our pop continues to rise, the number of jobs would continue to decline. Even with a "part time" on average work force, you STILL would have a good 20-30% of the population who wouldn't be needed in the work force. I know this is going to be hard to believe, but a job, in the future, could be something you actively desire/want even though you don't need to work. If I had a choice to do nothing, or cook food for people a few days a week, I would fight for the right to cook, even now.....honestly even if I didn't get any extra money out of it. As jobs are more scarce, the competition to get the jobs will increase, and instead of people complaining about going to work, they will often feel........lucky....to have a job. What about the people who just don't want to work, do they just get to live off the rest of us, why should we support them etc? That is old way thinking, we have technology to do almost everything for us, and honestly we should all share in the rewards of that technology and the resources of our country. There have been people throughout history who don't work (IE the rich/royalty etc), but we just call them rich etc, it's not bad in and of itself to not want to do a crappy job, and currently alot of jobs are crappy. There is no reason why people need to work 60+ hours a week just to save some money and feel finacially secure. There is no reason people need to die because of medical bills/health care running out and over-crowded hospitals. We have all the resources we need, we just don't share them, and we are not using the technology we already have to reduce the amount of labor needed because in the short term it's not finacially beneficial yet. UBI is honestly past due, so is automation, but in a country that hasn't even built up it's infrastructure in the last 50 freaking years, how can we expect to automate most jobs so people don't need to do them anymore? It's time to start making everyone's life easier/better, to stop (horribly) imprisoning people in little cells and torturing them, unless they are a severe danger to the public, we should have a health care system that actually cares, and prevents deaths if at all possible, school should be 100% absolutely and totally freaking free....no charge.....except your freaking time and effort. There is no reason for people to make BILLIONS on health care and BILLIONS on education. That isn't socialism, it's freaking common sense. IF you focus UBI (you can call it something else if you want) on those who need it, it wouldn't actually cost much more than theprograms we already have. If you also ended up getting rid of most prisoners (because UBI makes it possible for them to just live without commiting crimes), you might even SAVE money with the system. As far as health care (which I believe goes along with UBI), if you had free universal healthcare, the gov would PAY LESS then it does right now, it's just those billionares who would lose money (and alot of it). We already have free health care in the form of emergency rooms, which the gov pays for, at exorbitant rates. Those billionares profit from that greatly. We are paying for that with our taxes. Instead, make our taxes go directly to paying for the health care needed, and make it free for everyone. Your just changing who gets the benefit of all that money. There is so much wealth inequality, and we are not talking about evening that out (AT ALL), we are ONLY talking about evening out things a bit in the future (IE those people with you know, 300million + still will have 300 million plus, just the wealth provided by this countries resources will be split a bit more evenly among all it's citizens in the future (but the top 10% will still be WAAAAAY wealthier then your average citizen. Honestly, it's because we are so easily entertained with the internet, tvs etc, that I think the younger generations have not revolted over the current unfair situation. It's completely unfair for them, and something needs to be done about that. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Glowing Elephant "Stonehedge was a sex thing." <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:943778459] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>First, $1500 per person is certainly enough to live comfortably in most places (you get more if you have kids, double if your married etc). As mentioned prices would probably go down as things were automated more (perhaps not right away, due to initial costs, but over time). Realize that $1500 is the BARE MINIMUM as well, and only there as a floor, most people would hopefully still be working a few days a week (just for sanity if nothing else). Creative jobs would still be in high demand, just most menial jobs would be out. Even things like being a chef/cook, would be around still (Even if automated food was available easily, people would still pay extra for a "real" chef to cook their food, and people like me would LOVE to cook even if I didn't have to (and especially if it was highly appreciated, and part time). There would still be jobs, but probably less then 50% of them honestly, and our pop continues to rise, the number of jobs would continue to decline. Even with a "part time" on average work force, you STILL would have a good 20-30% of the population who wouldn't be needed in the work force. I know this is going to be hard to believe, but a job, in the future, could be something you actively desire/want even though you don't need to work. If I had a choice to do nothing, or cook food for people a few days a week, I would fight for the right to cook, even now.....honestly even if I didn't get any extra money out of it. As jobs are more scarce, the competition to get the jobs will increase, and instead of people complaining about going to work, they will often feel........lucky....to have a job. What about the people who just don't want to work, do they just get to live off the rest of us, why should we support them etc? That is old way thinking, we have technology to do almost everything for us, and honestly we should all share in the rewards of that technology and the resources of our country. There have been people throughout history who don't work (IE the rich/royalty etc), but we just call them rich etc, it's not bad in and of itself to not want to do a crappy job, and currently alot of jobs are crappy. There is no reason why people need to work 60+ hours a week just to save some money and feel finacially secure. There is no reason people need to die because of medical bills/health care running out and over-crowded hospitals. We have all the resources we need, we just don't share them, and we are not using the technology we already have to reduce the amount of labor needed because in the short term it's not finacially beneficial yet. UBI is honestly past due, so is automation, but in a country that hasn't even built up it's infrastructure in the last 50 freaking years, how can we expect to automate most jobs so people don't need to do them anymore? It's time to start making everyone's life easier/better, to stop (horribly) imprisoning people in little cells and torturing them, unless they are a severe danger to the public, we should have a health care system that actually cares, and prevents deaths if at all possible, school should be 100% absolutely and totally freaking free....no charge.....except your freaking time and effort. There is no reason for people to make BILLIONS on health care and BILLIONS on education. That isn't socialism, it's freaking common sense. IF you focus UBI (you can call it something else if you want) on those who need it, it wouldn't actually cost much more than theprograms we already have. If you also ended up getting rid of most prisoners (because UBI makes it possible for them to just live without commiting crimes), you might even SAVE money with the system. As far as health care (which I believe goes along with UBI), if you had free universal healthcare, the gov would PAY LESS then it does right now, it's just those billionares who would lose money (and alot of it). We already have free health care in the form of emergency rooms, which the gov pays for, at exorbitant rates. Those billionares profit from that greatly. We are paying for that with our taxes. Instead, make our taxes go directly to paying for the health care needed, and make it free for everyone. Your just changing who gets the benefit of all that money. There is so much wealth inequality, and we are not talking about evening that out (AT ALL), we are ONLY talking about evening out things a bit in the future (IE those people with you know, 300million + still will have 300 million plus, just the wealth provided by this countries resources will be split a bit more evenly among all it's citizens in the future (but the top 10% will still be WAAAAAY wealthier then your average citizen. Honestly, it's because we are so easily entertained with the internet, tvs etc, that I think the younger generations have not revolted over the current unfair situation. It's completely unfair for them, and something needs to be done about that. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Joker_X_II 08/24/20 7:36:35 PM #67:	LinkPizza posted... But if you only came a few months ago, and missed most of our UBI topics, it would be hard for you to say that, "the UBI topic ALWAYS ends with people saying they'd rather be artists than actually do REAL work for a living." So, that's why I mentioned when you came to this board. Does it make sense yet? You assume gFAQs is the only board I go to?... I think this is where you got lost.... LinkPizza posted... All you did was make baseless assumptions. You provided no evidence of that. There are many pro-UBI types here who have not mentioned going into art. Some said they would keep working, where others wanted to not do anything. Some talked about pursuing hobbies, where others thought about starting their own business... Not every pro-UBI person is going to take up art as a hobby or job like you seem to be suggesting... So here you are, telling me that there is this established history of the UBI topic here on the PoTD that "I missed out on" since you could only track my ID going back a few months already challenging me on my knowledge on YOUR version of the facts said here. And yet you are totally ignorant on the ENTIRE UBI DISCUSSION everywhere else on the internet because there are issues discussed that I doubt the regular posters here on gFAQs haven't even thought of yet..... So when I say "I've done this dance several times." ...is it that hard for you to understand that most UBI topics (on neutral platforms) usually backpedal on their "Liberal Arts" dreams when asked how UBI could affect individual purpose among society?.... As already on this thread alone people mentioned such intentions, before I posted. Even you just agreed with me too, "time to pursue hobbies" if the government start passing out free money.....but because I was not privy to gFAQs discussions months earlier, you assume I don't know what I'm talking about? ...despite you proving me right anyways? So you're trolling me (via lying) because I stated facts before you did?........ weird troll you are. --- PSA: "Real Gamers" don't pay for Micro-transactions. Pro-tip: You're not 'playing' the game, if you're paying your way through it. <cite>Joker_X_II posted [p:943778599] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>But if you only came a few months ago, and missed most of our UBI topics, it would be hard for you to say that, "the UBI topic ALWAYS ends with people saying they'd rather be artists than actually do REAL work for a living." So, that's why I mentioned when you came to this board. Does it make sense yet?</quote> You assume gFAQs is the only board I go to?... I think this is where you got lost.... LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>All you did was make baseless assumptions. You provided no evidence of that. There are many pro-UBI types here who have not mentioned going into art. Some said they would keep working, where others wanted to not do anything. Some talked about pursuing hobbies, where others thought about starting their own business... Not every pro-UBI person is going to take up art as a hobby or job like you seem to be suggesting...</quote> So here you are, telling me that there is this established history of the UBI topic here on the PoTD that "I missed out on" since you could only track my ID going back a few months already challenging me on my knowledge on YOUR version of the facts said here. And yet you are totally ignorant on the ENTIRE UBI DISCUSSION everywhere else on the internet because there are issues discussed that I doubt the regular posters here on gFAQs haven't even thought of yet..... So when I say "I've done this dance several times." ...is it that hard for you to understand that most UBI topics (on neutral platforms) usually backpedal on their "Liberal Arts" dreams when asked how UBI could affect individual purpose among society?.... As already on this thread alone people mentioned such intentions, before I posted. Even you just agreed with me too, "time to pursue hobbies" if the government start passing out free money.....but because I was not privy to gFAQs discussions months earlier, you assume I don't know what I'm talking about? ...despite you proving me right anyways? So you're trolling me (via lying) because I stated facts before you did?........ weird troll you are. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
YoukaiSlayer 08/24/20 7:44:30 PM #68:	LinkPizza posted... Thats laughable Why? If literally every part of the process is automated and self sufficient, it could afford to be FREE which is where things are almost bound to end up anyway. Also it's not a great diet but I live on about 20 bucks a month since I can only eat brown rice. You don't live somewhere cheap if it costs you 1500 a month for housing. It's not that hard to find appartments for like 600 some places. I am not for adding automation tax btw. If anything we should be encouraging automation as much as physically possible. Tax actual labor to incentivize development of automation. Joker_X_II posted... MOOCHING is a very legit concern going against UBI. Explain how mooching is a problem when we actually just don't need people to work? --- I'm ninja (you can't see me) <cite>YoukaiSlayer posted [p:943778902] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Thats laughable</quote>Why? If literally every part of the process is automated and self sufficient, it could afford to be FREE which is where things are almost bound to end up anyway. Also it's not a great diet but I live on about 20 bucks a month since I can only eat brown rice. You don't live somewhere cheap if it costs you 1500 a month for housing. It's not that hard to find appartments for like 600 some places. I am not for adding automation tax btw. If anything we should be encouraging automation as much as physically possible. Tax actual labor to incentivize development of automation. Joker_X_II posted... </cite> <quote>MOOCHING is a very legit concern going against UBI.</quote>Explain how mooching is a problem when we actually just don't need people to work? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Joker_X_II 08/24/20 7:58:41 PM #69:	YoukaiSlayer posted... Explain how mooching is a problem when we actually just don't need people to work? You answered your own question then. Because if people aren't working, yet getting free money anyways,....what else do you call it? "not mooching"? --- PSA: "Real Gamers" don't pay for Micro-transactions. Pro-tip: You're not 'playing' the game, if you're paying your way through it. <cite>Joker_X_II posted [p:943779452] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted... </cite> <quote>Explain how mooching is a problem when we actually just don't need people to work?</quote> You answered your own question then. Because if people aren't working, yet getting free money anyways,....what else do you call it? "not mooching"? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
YoukaiSlayer 08/24/20 8:03:11 PM #70:	Joker_X_II posted... Because if people aren't working, yet getting free money anyways,....what else do you call it? "not mooching"? I'm saying why does it matter? People not working is only bad if theres work they need to be doing. If theres no work to be done, whats the problem? --- I'm ninja (you can't see me) <cite>YoukaiSlayer posted [p:943779630] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted... </cite> <quote>Because if people aren't working, yet getting free money anyways,....what else do you call it? "not mooching"?</quote>I'm saying why does it matter? People not working is only bad if theres work they need to be doing. If theres no work to be done, whats the problem? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 8:12:03 PM #71:	wolfy42 posted... Wall of text Idk. Like I said, I'm in a low cost of living area (and pay a little less for where I currently live), and $1500 a month would definitely not be enough. I mean, it technically less than half or what I make. Of course, it becomes more manageable if prices were lower. But whether it was enough to pay for everything or not depends on what prices go down, and by how much. And if it'll take time like you said, that would mean having to find a way to hold out until then... And I know it would be nowhere close to the amount my family back home needs, being in Maryland and DC... Also, where is this number from. IIRC, wasn't Andrew Yang's amount like $1000 or something? There are already people who desire jobs. It won't be a new thing. Maybe more people, though. TBH, depending on the cost of things with UBI, it's possible everybody would want jobs... Many people work 60+ hours because they want to. And many would still want to depending on how they currently live. Since my job most likely won't be taken over by robots, I should be fine. But I do feel many people won't be happy. Though, it actually depends on the amount of money, and the cost of everything... And honestly, I'm glad Automation is "behind". I'd be fine without having much of it in my lifetime... I don't really use much of it already. So, not having it is fine for me... And while a lot of your ideas sound good, I don't think the US would do it correctly. And the ones in charge would still be trying to make everything in their favor... Joker_X_II posted... You assume gFAQs is the only board I go to?... I think this is where you got lost.... No. But I also don't believe you've seen literally every post about UBI. I've seen some on reddit that didn't mention artist, either. But you said the word "ALWAYS". Even as an exaggeration, you're still acting like you've seen every topic about UBI and think they're all the same. So, no. I'm not lost. You still seem to be, though... Joker_X_II posted... So here you are, telling me that there is this established history of the UBI topic here on the PoTD that "I missed out on" since you could only track my ID going back a few months already challenging me on my knowledge on YOUR version of the facts said here. And yet you are totally ignorant on the ENTIRE UBI DISCUSSION everywhere else on the internet because there are issues discussed that I doubt the regular posters here on gFAQs haven't even thought of yet..... You did miss out on a bunch of topics here, since if you didn't, you would have known that there wasn't any mention of everybody wanting to be an artist. And it's not MY version of the facts. You can literally look up the topic. It's wouldn't be too hard to find. And why would you think I'm ignorant to "the ENTIRE UBI DISCUSSION everywhere else on the internet". I've seen those. And most of the ones I've seen don't (or didn't at the time) mention everyone taking up art as a hobby. Some were surprisingly similar to the topics here. Other were wildly different. So, yeah. Some of them do mention things not mentioned here. But you're the one claiming they always end in people wanting to be artist, which is either false, or a blatant lie... Joker_X_II posted... So when I say "I've done this dance several times." ...is it that hard for you to understand that most UBI topics (on neutral platforms) usually backpedal on their "Liberal Arts" dreams when asked how UBI could affect individual purpose among society?.... Well, you'd be wrong. I've seen many that don't even discuss "Liberal Arts". But if you want to, you can pull up EVERY TOPIC EVER on UBI, and point out where every single one talks about the "Liberal Arts." Maybe then I'd believe you. But you gotta get every article. No cherry-picking only the ones that talk about it. I'm sure that would take an insanely long time, and I'm even more sure you'd still be wrong... Joker_X_II posted... As already on this thread alone people mentioned such intentions, before I posted. Even you just agreed with me too, "time to pursue hobbies" if the government start passing out free money.....but because I was not privy to gFAQs discussions months earlier, you assume I don't know what I'm talking about? You do know that not all hobbies have to do with art, right? Or is this where you've taken a wrong turn? Joker_X_II posted... ...despite you proving me right anyways? Where was that? Because I don't see me proving you right. I don't even see where you think you are right... Joker_X_II posted... So you're trolling me (via lying) because I stated facts before you did?........ weird troll you are. Trust me when I say you're the troll (and liar) around here. And I'm sure most people would agree... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943779984] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>Wall of text</quote> Idk. Like I said, I'm in a low cost of living area (and pay a little less for where I currently live), and $1500 a month would definitely not be enough. I mean, it technically less than half or what I make. Of course, it becomes more manageable if prices were lower. But whether it was enough to pay for everything or not depends on what prices go down, and by how much. And if it'll take time like you said, that would mean having to find a way to hold out until then... And I know it would be nowhere close to the amount my family back home needs, being in Maryland and DC... Also, where is this number from. IIRC, wasn't Andrew Yang's amount like $1000 or something? There are already people who desire jobs. It won't be a new thing. Maybe more people, though. TBH, depending on the cost of things with UBI, it's possible everybody would want jobs... Many people work 60+ hours because they want to. And many would still want to depending on how they currently live. Since my job most likely won't be taken over by robots, I should be fine. But I do feel many people won't be happy. Though, it actually depends on the amount of money, and the cost of everything... And honestly, I'm glad Automation is "behind". I'd be fine without having much of it in my lifetime... I don't really use much of it already. So, not having it is fine for me... And while a lot of your ideas sound good, I don't think the US would do it correctly. And the ones in charge would still be trying to make everything in their favor... Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>You assume gFAQs is the only board I go to?... I think this is where you got lost....</quote> No. But I also don't believe you've seen literally every post about UBI. I've seen some on reddit that didn't mention artist, either. But you said the word "ALWAYS". Even as an exaggeration, you're still acting like you've seen every topic about UBI and think they're all the same. So, no. I'm not lost. You still seem to be, though... Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>So here you are, telling me that there is this established history of the UBI topic here on the PoTD that "I missed out on" since you could only track my ID going back a few months already challenging me on my knowledge on YOUR version of the facts said here. And yet you are totally ignorant on the ENTIRE UBI DISCUSSION everywhere else on the internet because there are issues discussed that I doubt the regular posters here on gFAQs haven't even thought of yet.....</quote> You did miss out on a bunch of topics here, since if you didn't, you would have known that there wasn't any mention of everybody wanting to be an artist. And it's not MY version of the facts. You can literally look up the topic. It's wouldn't be too hard to find. And why would you think I'm ignorant to "the ENTIRE UBI DISCUSSION everywhere else on the internet". I've seen those. And most of the ones I've seen don't (or didn't at the time) mention everyone taking up art as a hobby. Some were surprisingly similar to the topics here. Other were wildly different. So, yeah. Some of them do mention things not mentioned here. But you're the one claiming they always end in people wanting to be artist, which is either false, or a blatant lie... Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>So when I say "I've done this dance several times." ...is it that hard for you to understand that most UBI topics (on neutral platforms) usually backpedal on their "Liberal Arts" dreams when asked how UBI could affect individual purpose among society?....</quote> Well, you'd be wrong. I've seen many that don't even discuss "Liberal Arts". But if you want to, you can pull up EVERY TOPIC EVER on UBI, and point out where every single one talks about the "Liberal Arts." Maybe then I'd believe you. But you gotta get every article. No cherry-picking only the ones that talk about it. I'm sure that would take an insanely long time, and I'm even more sure you'd still be wrong... Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>As already on this thread alone people mentioned such intentions, before I posted. Even you just agreed with me too, "time to pursue hobbies" if the government start passing out free money.....but because I was not privy to gFAQs discussions months earlier, you assume I don't know what I'm talking about?</quote> You do know that not all hobbies have to do with art, right? Or is this where you've taken a wrong turn? Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>...despite you proving me right anyways?</quote> Where was that? Because I don't see me proving you right. I don't even see where you think you are right... Joker_X_II posted...</cite> <quote>So you're trolling me (via lying) because I stated facts before you did?........ weird troll you are. </quote> Trust me when I say you're the troll (and liar) around here. And I'm sure most people would agree...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 8:12:09 PM #72:	YoukaiSlayer posted... Why? If literally every part of the process is automated and self sufficient, it could afford to be FREE which is where things are almost bound to end up anyway. Also it's not a great diet but I live on about 20 bucks a month since I can only eat brown rice. You don't live somewhere cheap if it costs you 1500 a month for housing. It's not that hard to find appartments for like 600 some places. Tbh, I don't think anything will just be free because it's easy to make. The makers will probably try to make a bigger profit. They may make some stuff a little cheaper, but they also want more money. In a world where it's hard to have over a certain amount of money because many people can't work, the people who can make a shit ton of money will do so... And I could also live off of $20 a month. But why live a shitty life with a shitty diet (to me, at least), when I don't have to? And the house on it's own isn't $1500. My monthly expenses can reach that amount, though. And it's a cheaper part of the US. When calculating our BAH/BAS for the military, it's take into consideration where you are and the cost of living in that area. The area I'm in is pretty low on the chart. And the house I rent is cheaper than a bunch of other people. But, I can only speak of the price based on what I know about the cost in other areas, and based on areas around military bases (mostly air force)... YoukaiSlayer posted... I am not for adding automation tax btw. If anything we should be encouraging automation as much as physically possible. Tax actual labor to incentivize development of automation. I mean, we can say that. But who knows what they'll actually do... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943779992] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Why? If literally every part of the process is automated and self sufficient, it could afford to be FREE which is where things are almost bound to end up anyway. Also it's not a great diet but I live on about 20 bucks a month since I can only eat brown rice. You don't live somewhere cheap if it costs you 1500 a month for housing. It's not that hard to find appartments for like 600 some places.</quote> Tbh, I don't think anything will just be free because it's easy to make. The makers will probably try to make a bigger profit. They may make some stuff a little cheaper, but they also want more money. In a world where it's hard to have over a certain amount of money because many people can't work, the people who can make a shit ton of money will do so... And I could also live off of $20 a month. But why live a shitty life with a shitty diet (to me, at least), when I don't have to? And the house on it's own isn't $1500. My monthly expenses can reach that amount, though. And it's a cheaper part of the US. When calculating our BAH/BAS for the military, it's take into consideration where you are and the cost of living in that area. The area I'm in is pretty low on the chart. And the house I rent is cheaper than a bunch of other people. But, I can only speak of the price based on what I know about the cost in other areas, and based on areas around military bases (mostly air force)... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>I am not for adding automation tax btw. If anything we should be encouraging automation as much as physically possible. Tax actual labor to incentivize development of automation.</quote> I mean, we can say that. But who knows what they'll actually do...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
YoukaiSlayer 08/24/20 8:29:32 PM #73:	Supposedly the median rent in america is 1700 a month. Thats not for the cheapest places or anything, just average. UBI only needs to support the cheapest stuff. It'll still be a huge boon for people that live in more expensive areas but if you want better food and housing, you work part time or something. If you can't you can at least afford a cheap apartment and solid enough food to live on. Ideally, as automation increases, the standard of living afforded by UBI will also increase, but just at a base level, it really only needs to be enough to get above the poverty line. LinkPizza posted... the people who can make a shit ton of money will do so... And do what with it exactly? Spend it on goods that cost literally zero dollars to make? Spend it on services that are handled automatically for free? Of course the fact that they even can is a testament to the problems with modern capitalism. It SHOULD result in people selling as close to at cost as possible. Ya know, competition. I know the rich people have basically solved that "problem" already but still, thats what the first part of the answer was for. --- I'm ninja (you can't see me) <cite>YoukaiSlayer posted [p:943780603] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Supposedly the median rent in america is 1700 a month. Thats not for the cheapest places or anything, just average. UBI only needs to support the cheapest stuff. It'll still be a huge boon for people that live in more expensive areas but if you want better food and housing, you work part time or something. If you can't you can at least afford a cheap apartment and solid enough food to live on. Ideally, as automation increases, the standard of living afforded by UBI will also increase, but just at a base level, it really only needs to be enough to get above the poverty line. LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>the people who can make a shit ton of money will do so...</quote>And do what with it exactly? Spend it on goods that cost literally zero dollars to make? Spend it on services that are handled automatically for free? Of course the fact that they even can is a testament to the problems with modern capitalism. It SHOULD result in people selling as close to at cost as possible. Ya know, competition. I know the rich people have basically solved that "problem" already but still, thats what the first part of the answer was for. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
kukukupo 08/24/20 8:32:16 PM #74:	In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO. <cite>kukukupo posted [p:943780692] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 08/24/20 8:32:49 PM #75:	LinkPizza posted... Also, where is this number from. IIRC, wasn't Andrew Yang's amount like $1000 or something? It's a number I came up with considering you can rent a 1 bedroom for $800-$1000 in most areas right now, and even if your not working you'll still have expenses over that just to survive. The UBI needs to be enough for a person to live minimally, have a roof, food, and entertainment. I believe for now $1500 would fit that bill. Yeah, if your working right now, that wouldn't be enough, but people on UBI are not to have lavish 1 bedroom or 2 bedroom apartments (unless they have a spouse or roomate etc). Remember each person living somewhere gets the min of $1500......so a couple for instance actually gets $3000 a month, can rent a nice $1500 a month apartment (Even a 2 bedroom at that price...you know...in case of fights), and still have plenty of money to spend to live on. UBI needs to be enough to comfortably live, but I still think there should be incentives to work, even if only part time, to better oneself (go to free college, trade schools etc), and to create etc (food, art, music etc). Money still needs to have value, and you still need a way to improve your life by having more money. UBI is just a safety net basically for those who can't get jobs, and allows people to work less hours per week. That is a big deal as 40+ hours a week leaves little time, to you know, live....and before you know it you are married 20 years and never had a chance to travel with your wife, or go on a cruise/vacation etc. That is what the rat race is like right now, even for higher paying jobs, and there is no reason for that at this point. People should be able to work 24 hours a week and still live comfortably with money left over for vacations/fun etc. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Glowing Elephant "Stonehedge was a sex thing." <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:943780718] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Also, where is this number from. IIRC, wasn't Andrew Yang's amount like $1000 or something?</quote> It's a number I came up with considering you can rent a 1 bedroom for $800-$1000 in most areas right now, and even if your not working you'll still have expenses over that just to survive. The UBI needs to be enough for a person to live minimally, have a roof, food, and entertainment. I believe for now $1500 would fit that bill. Yeah, if your working right now, that wouldn't be enough, but people on UBI are not to have lavish 1 bedroom or 2 bedroom apartments (unless they have a spouse or roomate etc). Remember each person living somewhere gets the min of $1500......so a couple for instance actually gets $3000 a month, can rent a nice $1500 a month apartment (Even a 2 bedroom at that price...you know...in case of fights), and still have plenty of money to spend to live on. UBI needs to be enough to comfortably live, but I still think there should be incentives to work, even if only part time, to better oneself (go to free college, trade schools etc), and to create etc (food, art, music etc). Money still needs to have value, and you still need a way to improve your life by having more money. UBI is just a safety net basically for those who can't get jobs, and allows people to work less hours per week. That is a big deal as 40+ hours a week leaves little time, to you know, live....and before you know it you are married 20 years and never had a chance to travel with your wife, or go on a cruise/vacation etc. That is what the rat race is like right now, even for higher paying jobs, and there is no reason for that at this point. People should be able to work 24 hours a week and still live comfortably with money left over for vacations/fun etc. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 08/24/20 8:42:41 PM #76:	kukukupo posted... In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO. Not really, location is a commodity, that you pay for (in higher rent/cost of living etc). UBI would probably be enough to pay for a cheap place even in nice locations (Since the costs are not THAT drastically different), but you could certainly live better in a cheaper part of the country. People living on UBI would probably NOT be living in the Bay Area, or Manhattan though (at least not without working part time as well, and then the amount paid for services in that area could partially compensate for the higher cost of living). When most things are automated, having a real human serve you will probably be compensated for at a higher rate, and will be done mainly by those with extra income or the already rich (the prices would naturally be higher at such places as well). UBI could work with a flat amount and let the population determine where it is most worth it to live etc. It would also allow people to spread out a bit more, since you won't always need to commute to work etc. Many people on UBI could live futher away from cities/suburbs without massive commutes etc. It would also as a side product help with the traffic problems. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Glowing Elephant "Stonehedge was a sex thing." <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:943781092] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>kukukupo posted... </cite> <quote>In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO.</quote> Not really, location is a commodity, that you pay for (in higher rent/cost of living etc). UBI would probably be enough to pay for a cheap place even in nice locations (Since the costs are not THAT drastically different), but you could certainly live better in a cheaper part of the country. People living on UBI would probably NOT be living in the Bay Area, or Manhattan though (at least not without working part time as well, and then the amount paid for services in that area could partially compensate for the higher cost of living). When most things are automated, having a real human serve you will probably be compensated for at a higher rate, and will be done mainly by those with extra income or the already rich (the prices would naturally be higher at such places as well). UBI could work with a flat amount and let the population determine where it is most worth it to live etc. It would also allow people to spread out a bit more, since you won't always need to commute to work etc. Many people on UBI could live futher away from cities/suburbs without massive commutes etc. It would also as a side product help with the traffic problems. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 08/24/20 8:52:26 PM #77:	UBI doesn't detract from capitalism, it actually adds to it. Basically it ensures more Americans have funds/money to spend on things that are not just survival based. It also means more people can buy based on how good a product is, not just how cheap it is, which inspires greater creativity and competition. In the end you have either two ways to go, either you ignore technology and force people to continue to do menial tasks while more and more people are trying for jobs (unless we implement population control), or you make those tasks obsolete and open new avenues for profit, and provide a safety net UBI for everyone if they can't find work or don't have a marketable skill. Things like online games for competition (and real money winnings) for instance. They already exist but with a population that has alot more free time, and needs a way to compete etc, online games could become HUGE. Online game jobs even might eventually become almost more common then jobs in real life. The future could be really interesting, or...well it could really freaking suck. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Glowing Elephant "Stonehedge was a sex thing." <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:943781493] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>UBI doesn't detract from capitalism, it actually adds to it. Basically it ensures more Americans have funds/money to spend on things that are not just survival based. It also means more people can buy based on how good a product is, not just how cheap it is, which inspires greater creativity and competition. In the end you have either two ways to go, either you ignore technology and force people to continue to do menial tasks while more and more people are trying for jobs (unless we implement population control), or you make those tasks obsolete and open new avenues for profit, and provide a safety net UBI for everyone if they can't find work or don't have a marketable skill. Things like online games for competition (and real money winnings) for instance. They already exist but with a population that has alot more free time, and needs a way to compete etc, online games could become HUGE. Online game jobs even might eventually become almost more common then jobs in real life. The future could be really interesting, or...well it could really freaking suck. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 9:02:57 PM #78:	YoukaiSlayer posted... Supposedly the median rent in america is 1700 a month. Thats not for the cheapest places or anything, just average. UBI only needs to support the cheapest stuff. It'll still be a huge boon for people that live in more expensive areas but if you want better food and housing, you work part time or something. If you can't you can at least afford a cheap apartment and solid enough food to live on. Ideally, as automation increases, the standard of living afforded by UBI will also increase, but just at a base level, it really only needs to be enough to get above the poverty line. While I think it would help, I think it would only do that. By that, I mean they couldn't live on $1500 a month, either. Rent for even an apartment is pretty expensive there. $1000 is just a percentage of either of my parents paychecks. I feel that most people would need to work a part time job to actually support themselves... The thing is, not everyone wants to live just above the poverty line. Especially since they would need ore money if they have more free time... YoukaiSlayer posted... And do what with it exactly? Spend it on goods that cost literally zero dollars to make? Spend it on services that are handled automatically for free? That's the thing. I don't think goods would cost zero. Like I said, the ones who have the money would only have that money because their goods still cost a good chunk of change. So, they would spend it on the goods that do cost money. Like the goods they sell. Also, more money means you can do more. Maybe eat much better. Have parties all the time, or travel much more than other people. With more money, they could live a better life. Especially since everyone else would be living only just above the poverty line, I guess... YoukaiSlayer posted... Of course the fact that they even can is a testament to the problems with modern capitalism. It SHOULD result in people selling as close to at cost as possible. Ya know, competition. I know the rich people have basically solved that "problem" already but still, thats what the first part of the answer was for. Sure. But if all the companies are selling for about the same price before and only went a little lower, then they are still close to the competition... kukukupo posted... In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO. This is another big problem, as well. I've mentioned this in other discussions. The difference even between my hometown and current city is ridiculous. My dad said he could live like royalty with his paycheck if he lived down here making the same amount. Haha. wolfy42 posted... It's a number I came up with considering you can rent a 1 bedroom for $800-$1000 in most areas right now, and even if your not working you'll still have expenses over that just to survive. The UBI needs to be enough for a person to live minimally, have a roof, food, and entertainment. I believe for now $1500 would fit that bill. I get your line of thinking, but not everybody wants to live in just one bedroom. And not everybody wants barely enough to live... wolfy42 posted... UBI needs to be enough to comfortably live, but I still think there should be incentives to work, even if only part time, to better oneself (go to free college, trade schools etc), and to create etc (food, art, music etc). Money still needs to have value, and you still need a way to improve your life by having more money. I'd rather just work for my money. UBI sounds like it would make a lot of things a pain in the ass, tbh... wolfy42 posted... UBI is just a safety net basically for those who can't get jobs, and allows people to work less hours per week. That is a big deal as 40+ hours a week leaves little time, to you know, live....and before you know it you are married 20 years and never had a chance to travel with your wife, or go on a cruise/vacation etc. That is what the rat race is like right now, even for higher paying jobs, and there is no reason for that at this point. People should be able to work 24 hours a week and still live comfortably with money left over for vacations/fun etc. Idk. I never had a problem with the 40 hour work week. Even when I have 60 hour works weeks on base, it wasn't bad. I still had free time away from work. And I was still able to go home for leave (vacation) for u[ to a month at a time. And even took a couple weeks leave to go on a cruise for a week and spend a week at home. And it's probably better than spending all my time at home... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943781940] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Supposedly the median rent in america is 1700 a month. Thats not for the cheapest places or anything, just average. UBI only needs to support the cheapest stuff. It'll still be a huge boon for people that live in more expensive areas but if you want better food and housing, you work part time or something. If you can't you can at least afford a cheap apartment and solid enough food to live on. Ideally, as automation increases, the standard of living afforded by UBI will also increase, but just at a base level, it really only needs to be enough to get above the poverty line.</quote> While I think it would help, I think it would only do that. By that, I mean they couldn't live on $1500 a month, either. Rent for even an apartment is pretty expensive there. $1000 is just a percentage of either of my parents paychecks. I feel that most people would need to work a part time job to actually support themselves... The thing is, not everyone wants to live just above the poverty line. Especially since they would need ore money if they have more free time... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>And do what with it exactly? Spend it on goods that cost literally zero dollars to make? Spend it on services that are handled automatically for free?</quote> That's the thing. I don't think goods would cost zero. Like I said, the ones who have the money would only have that money because their goods still cost a good chunk of change. So, they would spend it on the goods that do cost money. Like the goods they sell. Also, more money means you can do more. Maybe eat much better. Have parties all the time, or travel much more than other people. With more money, they could live a better life. Especially since everyone else would be living only just above the poverty line, I guess... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Of course the fact that they even can is a testament to the problems with modern capitalism. It SHOULD result in people selling as close to at cost as possible. Ya know, competition. I know the rich people have basically solved that "problem" already but still, thats what the first part of the answer was for.</quote> Sure. But if all the companies are selling for about the same price before and only went a little lower, then they are still close to the competition... kukukupo posted...</cite> <quote>In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO.</quote> This is another big problem, as well. I've mentioned this in other discussions. The difference even between my hometown and current city is ridiculous. My dad said he could live like royalty with his paycheck if he lived down here making the same amount. Haha. wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>It's a number I came up with considering you can rent a 1 bedroom for $800-$1000 in most areas right now, and even if your not working you'll still have expenses over that just to survive. The UBI needs to be enough for a person to live minimally, have a roof, food, and entertainment. I believe for now $1500 would fit that bill.</quote> I get your line of thinking, but not everybody wants to live in just one bedroom. And not everybody wants barely enough to live... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>UBI needs to be enough to comfortably live, but I still think there should be incentives to work, even if only part time, to better oneself (go to free college, trade schools etc), and to create etc (food, art, music etc). Money still needs to have value, and you still need a way to improve your life by having more money.</quote> I'd rather just work for my money. UBI sounds like it would make a lot of things a pain in the ass, tbh... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>UBI is just a safety net basically for those who can't get jobs, and allows people to work less hours per week. That is a big deal as 40+ hours a week leaves little time, to you know, live....and before you know it you are married 20 years and never had a chance to travel with your wife, or go on a cruise/vacation etc. That is what the rat race is like right now, even for higher paying jobs, and there is no reason for that at this point. People should be able to work 24 hours a week and still live comfortably with money left over for vacations/fun etc.</quote> Idk. I never had a problem with the 40 hour work week. Even when I have 60 hour works weeks on base, it wasn't bad. I still had free time away from work. And I was still able to go home for leave (vacation) for u[ to a month at a time. And even took a couple weeks leave to go on a cruise for a week and spend a week at home. And it's probably better than spending all my time at home...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 9:03:01 PM #79:	wolfy42 posted... Not really, location is a commodity, that you pay for (in higher rent/cost of living etc). Not really. I mean, not everybody is going to want to move because of lower cost of living, nor should they have to. Some can't because of their job, as well. Or family. If they want a UBI that actually helps everyone, cost of living needs to be equal across the board... wolfy42 posted... Since the costs are not THAT drastically different Idk. I know many places that differ drastically. Like my 3 bedroom house (renting) being cheaper than my mom's apartment... by a good amount... I don't think I could afford to live there on my paycheck. Like my working paycheck... wolfy42 posted... When most things are automated, having a real human serve you will probably be compensated for at a higher rate, and will be done mainly by those with extra income or the already rich (the prices would naturally be higher at such places as well). That wouold suck. That would mean i'dd have to work. I don't like automation. Nor do I think I could live with it. The little they have already suck pretty bad as it is... Having to always deal with it would be a nightmare... wolfy42 posted... UBI could work with a flat amount and let the population determine where it is most worth it to live etc. Honeslty, I think that's kind of dumb, to be perfectly honest. No offense. But I don't think people should be forced to move just because they have to live in near poverty... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943781945] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>Not really, location is a commodity, that you pay for (in higher rent/cost of living etc).</quote> Not really. I mean, not everybody is going to want to move because of lower cost of living, nor should they have to. Some can't because of their job, as well. Or family. If they want a UBI that actually helps everyone, cost of living needs to be equal across the board... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>Since the costs are not THAT drastically different</quote> Idk. I know many places that differ drastically. Like my 3 bedroom house (renting) being cheaper than my mom's apartment... by a good amount... I don't think I could afford to live there on my paycheck. Like my working paycheck... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>When most things are automated, having a real human serve you will probably be compensated for at a higher rate, and will be done mainly by those with extra income or the already rich (the prices would naturally be higher at such places as well).</quote> That wouold suck. That would mean i'dd have to work. I don't like automation. Nor do I think I could live with it. The little they have already suck pretty bad as it is... Having to always deal with it would be a nightmare... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>UBI could work with a flat amount and let the population determine where it is most worth it to live etc.</quote> Honeslty, I think that's kind of dumb, to be perfectly honest. No offense. But I don't think people should be forced to move just because they have to live in near poverty...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TheWitchMorgana 08/24/20 9:17:19 PM #80:	Joker_X_II posted... YAY, everyone can get free money from the government so we can all be artists! And our rainbow fingerpaintings can be worth something!!!! this but unironically --- and love comes back around again, it's a carousel, my friend <cite>TheWitchMorgana posted [p:943782509] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Joker_X_II posted... </cite> <quote>YAY, everyone can get free money from the government so we can all be artists! And our rainbow fingerpaintings can be worth something!!!! </quote> this but unironically </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Krazy_Kirby 08/24/20 9:24:58 PM #81:	unless there was no rent, 1k a month wouldn't be enough for lots of places --- Kill From The Shadows. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot <cite>Krazy_Kirby posted [p:943782802] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>unless there was no rent, 1k a month wouldn't be enough for lots of places</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
YoukaiSlayer 08/24/20 9:39:23 PM #82:	LinkPizza posted... Maybe eat much better. Have parties all the time, or travel much more than other people. With more money But all that stuff would already be free. There's no reason cooking even amazing quality food cooked to a level of perfection a human could never achieve couldn't be done by a machine. Theres no reason travel would cost any real amount of money. EVERYONE could do and have all this stuff. LinkPizza posted... Sure. But if all the companies are selling for about the same price before and only went a little lower, then they are still close to the competition... Yes but if capitalism works how it should, the moment it can be done cheaper, another company would step in and sell cheaper and then they would get undercut by another company and it'd keep going till they were selling at near cost. That's how its supposed to work. It doesn't but the whole reason capitlism is supposed to be good is because competition drives innovation and improvement. The fact that rich people found a way for that to no longer be the case just proves that something needs to change. The current market is very anti-competitive in a lot of fields. Turns out it's easier for companies to organize and work together than for consumers to do the same. LinkPizza posted... Not really. I mean, not everybody is going to want to move because of lower cost of living, nor should they have to. Some can't because of their job, as well. Or family. If they have a job preventing them from moving they obviously make more money than just UBI. If they have a family then they are collecting their families UBI as well. Even a single mother and her kid trying to scrape by would get 3k a month. If you are single and don't wanna work, move somewhere cheap enough to get by without a job. Once automation increases, cost of living goes down or tax rates spike (if rich people really just keep hoarding money for no reason) and the 1500 a month either covers more or they increase the amount. People seem to be viewing money a little oddly, as if it has inherent value. All that really matters is the amount being produced, and the amount of work needed to produce it. We've already reached a point where it's possible for everyone to get enough to get by. We don't need to produce more than we do for everyone out there to have enough to live. Theres enough food for the whole world to be fed and enough land for everyone to have a place to call their own. As long as the same amount of goods and services are being produced, there will continue to be enough for everybody to have enough to get by. This means there will always be a way to shift the money around so everyone can survive unless not enough work gets done. UBI for sure will lower the amount of human labor but probably not by as much as some people seem to think and the whole point is for automation to take the place of the lost work. The time where we actually need to fight to survive is passed. Now we just do it cause it's what we are used to. --- I'm ninja (you can't see me) <cite>YoukaiSlayer posted [p:943783325] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Maybe eat much better. Have parties all the time, or travel much more than other people. With more money</quote>But all that stuff would already be free. There's no reason cooking even amazing quality food cooked to a level of perfection a human could never achieve couldn't be done by a machine. Theres no reason travel would cost any real amount of money. EVERYONE could do and have all this stuff. LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Sure. But if all the companies are selling for about the same price before and only went a little lower, then they are still close to the competition...</quote>Yes but if capitalism works how it should, the moment it can be done cheaper, another company would step in and sell cheaper and then they would get undercut by another company and it'd keep going till they were selling at near cost. That's how its supposed to work. It doesn't but the whole reason capitlism is supposed to be good is because competition drives innovation and improvement. The fact that rich people found a way for that to no longer be the case just proves that something needs to change. The current market is very anti-competitive in a lot of fields. Turns out it's easier for companies to organize and work together than for consumers to do the same. LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Not really. I mean, not everybody is going to want to move because of lower cost of living, nor should they have to. Some can't because of their job, as well. Or family.</quote>If they have a job preventing them from moving they obviously make more money than just UBI. If they have a family then they are collecting their families UBI as well. Even a single mother and her kid trying to scrape by would get 3k a month. If you are single and don't wanna work, move somewhere cheap enough to get by without a job. Once automation increases, cost of living goes down or tax rates spike (if rich people really just keep hoarding money for no reason) and the 1500 a month either covers more or they increase the amount. People seem to be viewing money a little oddly, as if it has inherent value. All that really matters is the amount being produced, and the amount of work needed to produce it. We've already reached a point where it's possible for everyone to get enough to get by. We don't need to produce more than we do for everyone out there to have enough to live. Theres enough food for the whole world to be fed and enough land for everyone to have a place to call their own. As long as the same amount of goods and services are being produced, there will continue to be enough for everybody to have enough to get by. This means there will always be a way to shift the money around so everyone can survive unless not enough work gets done. UBI for sure will lower the amount of human labor but probably not by as much as some people seem to think and the whole point is for automation to take the place of the lost work. The time where we actually need to fight to survive is passed. Now we just do it cause it's what we are used to. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/24/20 10:02:04 PM #83:	YoukaiSlayer posted... But all that stuff would already be free. There's no reason cooking even amazing quality food cooked to a level of perfection a human could never achieve couldn't be done by a machine. Theres no reason travel would cost any real amount of money. EVERYONE could do and have all this stuff. I mean, that what some people assume. I can't assume that stuff will be free. There's literally no reason for it to be free. Nor does it make sense for it to be free. We still have money for a reason. If everything was free, then money would be useless. Which then means UBI would be useless, as well... And why do you assume it'll be free. They are a lot of things that cost barely anything to make that people sell for way more. Like I said, I can see things being maybe cheaper. But I don't see everything becoming free just because robots made it. And definitely not in the US... And not everybody wants for cooked by a machine. Many people would rather have an actual chef for some. Not to mention, I don't even think you could really order things the exact way you want them all the time. They can barely make an app that allows you to order things the way you want sometimes... Also, IIRC, if anything would be free, it would be needs. I don't see things you don't need being free. Like traveling. Depending on how you travel, it would probably still be expensive. Cruise have always given out most things for free, but would probably still charge about the same. I don't see airports lowering their prices, either. I mean, they already sell more seats than they have on planes all the time... To think they would lower they price is also pretty ridiculous... YoukaiSlayer posted... Yes but if capitalism works how it should, the moment it can be done cheaper, another company would step in and sell cheaper and then they would get undercut by another company and it'd keep going till they were selling at near cost. That's how its supposed to work. It doesn't but the whole reason capitlism is supposed to be good is because competition drives innovation and improvement. The fact that rich people found a way for that to no longer be the case just proves that something needs to change. The current market is very anti-competitive in a lot of fields. Turns out it's easier for companies to organize and work together than for consumers to do the same. It's possible that another company does it. But there's also a chance it'll sell is cheaper, but not by much. And even then, some companies would only go so low. I mean, what's the point of sell something if you don't make any money. I would spend my time nice wooden plaques for people where the materials cost $45 and I sold them for $50. That would be a waste of my time. I think companies will think similar. And some probably wouldn't even have to cut their prices. I know many places that sell something cheap, and people will buy the ones that cost 2x or 3x for many reasons. From the brand name, to the quality, to maybe not even knowing about the other one... YoukaiSlayer posted... If they have a job preventing them from moving they obviously make more money than just UBI. If they have a family then they are collecting their families UBI as well. Even a single mother and her kid trying to scrape by would get 3k a month. If you are single and don't wanna work, move somewhere cheap enough to get by without a job. Making more doesn't mean making enough, though. Especially if they have to cut their hours by about half (or more), like Wolfy was talking about. Also, would kids get it? IIRC, I thought it was adults getting it. And, no offense, but I think making someone move because of this is honestly idiotic... Especially if they were fine before UBI, but now can live there because of UBI... YoukaiSlayer posted... Once automation increases, cost of living goes down or tax rates spike (if rich people really just keep hoarding money for no reason) and the 1500 a month either covers more or they increase the amount. You would hope the cost goes down. There's no real reason for it to. That's just an assumption or what people want to happen... YoukaiSlayer posted... People seem to be viewing money a little oddly, as if it has inherent value. All that really matters is the amount being produced, and the amount of work needed to produce it. We've already reached a point where it's possible for everyone to get enough to get by. We don't need to produce more than we do for everyone out there to have enough to live. Theres enough food for the whole world to be fed and enough land for everyone to have a place to call their own. As long as the same amount of goods and services are being produced, there will continue to be enough for everybody to have enough to get by. This means there will always be a way to shift the money around so everyone can survive unless not enough work gets done. People don't want to just get by, though. People want to be happy. If people wanted to just get by, I think things would already be very different. I don't want to just get by. I want to be happy. I feel UBI actually makes that harder for me... For many different reasons, but still... YoukaiSlayer posted... UBI for sure will lower the amount of human labor but probably not by as much as some people seem to think and the whole point is for automation to take the place of the lost work. The time where we actually need to fight to survive is passed. Now we just do it cause it's what we are used to. It might be more than people think. Some big stores have a lot of people working in them. And automation can cause all of them to lose jobs. All the cashiers, the stockers, everyone... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943784129] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>But all that stuff would already be free. There's no reason cooking even amazing quality food cooked to a level of perfection a human could never achieve couldn't be done by a machine. Theres no reason travel would cost any real amount of money. EVERYONE could do and have all this stuff.</quote> I mean, that what some people assume. I can't assume that stuff will be free. There's literally no reason for it to be free. Nor does it make sense for it to be free. We still have money for a reason. If everything was free, then money would be useless. Which then means UBI would be useless, as well... And why do you assume it'll be free. They are a lot of things that cost barely anything to make that people sell for way more. Like I said, I can see things being maybe cheaper. But I don't see everything becoming free just because robots made it. And definitely not in the US... And not everybody wants for cooked by a machine. Many people would rather have an actual chef for some. Not to mention, I don't even think you could really order things the exact way you want them all the time. They can barely make an app that allows you to order things the way you want sometimes... Also, IIRC, if anything would be free, it would be needs. I don't see things you don't need being free. Like traveling. Depending on how you travel, it would probably still be expensive. Cruise have always given out most things for free, but would probably still charge about the same. I don't see airports lowering their prices, either. I mean, they already sell more seats than they have on planes all the time... To think they would lower they price is also pretty ridiculous... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Yes but if capitalism works how it should, the moment it can be done cheaper, another company would step in and sell cheaper and then they would get undercut by another company and it'd keep going till they were selling at near cost. That's how its supposed to work. It doesn't but the whole reason capitlism is supposed to be good is because competition drives innovation and improvement. The fact that rich people found a way for that to no longer be the case just proves that something needs to change. The current market is very anti-competitive in a lot of fields. Turns out it's easier for companies to organize and work together than for consumers to do the same.</quote> It's possible that another company does it. But there's also a chance it'll sell is cheaper, but not by much. And even then, some companies would only go so low. I mean, what's the point of sell something if you don't make any money. I would spend my time nice wooden plaques for people where the materials cost $45 and I sold them for $50. That would be a waste of my time. I think companies will think similar. And some probably wouldn't even have to cut their prices. I know many places that sell something cheap, and people will buy the ones that cost 2x or 3x for many reasons. From the brand name, to the quality, to maybe not even knowing about the other one... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>If they have a job preventing them from moving they obviously make more money than just UBI. If they have a family then they are collecting their families UBI as well. Even a single mother and her kid trying to scrape by would get 3k a month. If you are single and don't wanna work, move somewhere cheap enough to get by without a job.</quote> Making more doesn't mean making enough, though. Especially if they have to cut their hours by about half (or more), like Wolfy was talking about. Also, would kids get it? IIRC, I thought it was adults getting it. And, no offense, but I think making someone move because of this is honestly idiotic... Especially if they were fine before UBI, but now can live there because of UBI... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Once automation increases, cost of living goes down or tax rates spike (if rich people really just keep hoarding money for no reason) and the 1500 a month either covers more or they increase the amount.</quote> You would hope the cost goes down. There's no real reason for it to. That's just an assumption or what people want to happen... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>People seem to be viewing money a little oddly, as if it has inherent value. All that really matters is the amount being produced, and the amount of work needed to produce it. We've already reached a point where it's possible for everyone to get enough to get by. We don't need to produce more than we do for everyone out there to have enough to live. Theres enough food for the whole world to be fed and enough land for everyone to have a place to call their own. As long as the same amount of goods and services are being produced, there will continue to be enough for everybody to have enough to get by. This means there will always be a way to shift the money around so everyone can survive unless not enough work gets done.</quote> People don't want to just get by, though. People want to be happy. If people wanted to just get by, I think things would already be very different. I don't want to just get by. I want to be happy. I feel UBI actually makes that harder for me... For many different reasons, but still... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>UBI for sure will lower the amount of human labor but probably not by as much as some people seem to think and the whole point is for automation to take the place of the lost work. The time where we actually need to fight to survive is passed. Now we just do it cause it's what we are used to.</quote> It might be more than people think. Some big stores have a lot of people working in them. And automation can cause all of them to lose jobs. All the cashiers, the stockers, everyone...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosAzeroth 08/24/20 10:41:18 PM #84:	LinkPizza posted... It might be more than people think. Some big stores have a lot of people working in them. And automation can cause all of them to lose jobs. All the cashiers, the stockers, everyone... I mean even without full on automation over half the checkout places in the closest WalMart are without manpower. (Self checkout) They only have 1-2 employees for all those registers, to clean and to provide help if something does go wrong. (Rush times must be extra a nightmare for them tbh, we've been there when there's a lot of people and due to sanitation requirements it's slow as balls. You know that person or two has got to be swamped.) Companies are always trying to find ways to cut costs and make more and more. This is the unfortunate truth of the matter. I bet if they could, they'd have no employees manning any of the check out. The greeters that demand to see your receipt however, definitely safe. <cite>ChaosAzeroth posted [p:943785654] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>It might be more than people think. Some big stores have a lot of people working in them. And automation can cause all of them to lose jobs. All the cashiers, the stockers, everyone...</quote> I mean even without full on automation over half the checkout places in the closest WalMart are without manpower. (Self checkout) They only have 1-2 employees for all those registers, to clean and to provide help if something does go wrong. (Rush times must be extra a nightmare for them tbh, we've been there when there's a lot of people and due to sanitation requirements it's slow as balls. You know that person or two has got to be swamped.) Companies are always trying to find ways to cut costs and make more and more. This is the unfortunate truth of the matter. I bet if they could, they'd have no employees manning any of the check out. The greeters that demand to see your receipt however, definitely safe. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Sahuagin 08/24/20 11:14:26 PM #85:	Marshall Brain's idea was to use bills as advertising space... that's always where he lost me. --- *The truth basks in scrutiny.* https://imgur.com/GMouTGs http://projecteuler.net/profile/Sahuagin.png <cite>Sahuagin posted [p:943786782] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Marshall Brain's idea was to use bills as advertising space... that's always where he lost me. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mead 08/24/20 11:29:53 PM #86:	Sahuagin posted... Marshall Brain's idea was to use bills as advertising space... that's always where he lost me. but then you could do crazy stuff like use McDonalds dollars at burger king turn the whole system on its head --- The Betrayer <cite>Mead posted [p:943787229] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Sahuagin posted... </cite> <quote>Marshall Brain's idea was to use bills as advertising space... that's always where he lost me.</quote> but then you could do crazy stuff like use McDonalds dollars at burger king turn the whole system on its head </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/25/20 2:16:42 AM #87:	ChaosAzeroth posted... I mean even without full on automation over half the checkout places in the closest WalMart are without manpower. (Self checkout) They only have 1-2 employees for all those registers, to clean and to provide help if something does go wrong. (Rush times must be extra a nightmare for them tbh, we've been there when there's a lot of people and due to sanitation requirements it's slow as balls. You know that person or two has got to be swamped.) It sucks that they don't have extra people to help during those times. At least the Wal-marts I have been to have extra help. The other cashiers just direct you to the self-checkout line when not manning their station, though. I avoid them since I don't feel like doing self-checkout, though... ChaosAzeroth posted... Companies are always trying to find ways to cut costs and make more and more. This is the unfortunate truth of the matter. I bet if they could, they'd have no employees manning any of the check out. Probably. And I bet that even if they cut all employees, I don't think they'd start making everything cheaper. They would just end up getting more profit... ChaosAzeroth posted... The greeters that demand to see your receipt however, definitely safe. Haha. They'll be the last to go. Until the get Futurama like police bots... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943790900] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>ChaosAzeroth posted...</cite> <quote>I mean even without full on automation over half the checkout places in the closest WalMart are without manpower. (Self checkout) They only have 1-2 employees for all those registers, to clean and to provide help if something does go wrong. (Rush times must be extra a nightmare for them tbh, we've been there when there's a lot of people and due to sanitation requirements it's slow as balls. You know that person or two has got to be swamped.)</quote> It sucks that they don't have extra people to help during those times. At least the Wal-marts I have been to have extra help. The other cashiers just direct you to the self-checkout line when not manning their station, though. I avoid them since I don't feel like doing self-checkout, though... ChaosAzeroth posted...</cite> <quote>Companies are always trying to find ways to cut costs and make more and more. This is the unfortunate truth of the matter. I bet if they could, they'd have no employees manning any of the check out.</quote> Probably. And I bet that even if they cut all employees, I don't think they'd start making everything cheaper. They would just end up getting more profit... ChaosAzeroth posted...</cite> <quote>The greeters that demand to see your receipt however, definitely safe.</quote> Haha. They'll be the last to go. Until the get Futurama like police bots...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
dragon504 08/25/20 2:32:01 AM #88:	Money with advertising on it would be the most American thing ever lol. --- http://myanimelist.net/profile/dragon504 http://followmy.tv/u/dragon504/time_wasted <cite>dragon504 posted [p:943791176] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Money with advertising on it would be the most American thing ever lol. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Xfma100 08/25/20 3:33:27 AM #89:	Let me preface this post by stating that I'm clueless about most of this but... kukukupo posted... In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO. How should this be addressed? And how would UBI affect the housing market, stock market, etc? <cite>Xfma100 posted [p:943792102] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Let me preface this post by stating that I'm clueless about most of this but... kukukupo posted... </cite> <quote>In order for UBI to even be discussed, you would somehow have to make the cost of living the same all across the country - unless you try to fund UBI on a state-by-state basis. Until then, it seems like a wasted discussion, IMO.</quote> How should this be addressed? And how would UBI affect the housing market, stock market, etc? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Krazy_Kirby 08/25/20 3:55:34 AM #90:	ChaosAzeroth posted... The greeters that demand to see your receipt however, definitely safe. good thing i don't shop at places with memberships, so i don't have to stop for that crap --- Kill From The Shadows. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot <cite>Krazy_Kirby posted [p:943792417] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>ChaosAzeroth posted...</cite> <quote> The greeters that demand to see your receipt however, definitely safe. </quote> good thing i don't shop at places with memberships, so i don't have to stop for that crap</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
YoukaiSlayer 08/25/20 10:29:06 AM #91:	LinkPizza posted... If everything was free, then money would be useless Which is exactly what will happen. Money exists cause it serves a purpose and that purpose is going to disappear. I think some of the confusion here is my fault cause I'm talking about several different points on the timeline here so let me establish how I think things should go. Phase 1 - current day or a few years down the line ------------ UBI is implemented. Adults get 1500+1500 for each dependent they take care of. Jobs are unchanged so everyone working is still working the same hours. Disability, unemployment, welfare, etc all disappear because UBI makes them irrelevant except maybe medicare/medicaid but this won't be an issue in the next phase. The government can gradually start implementing taxes to encourage automation development and use. A solid minimum wage could probably do the trick but so could taxing human labor. Maybe a little of both. You no longer have to work if you really don't want to, but you will have to make sacrifices if you don't work. You are going to be living a cheap life in a cheap area if you don't want to work. If you do want to work, it'll actually be easier than ever, because some people currently holding jobs will quit to live off of UBI meaning more jobs available. Production will suffer somewhat during this time which will naturally result in paying people more which will result in automation being more favorable for companies. Phase 2 - about 10 years after phase 1 ----------- Automation development really starts pay off and implementation goes way up. At this point, many jobs are lost to automation and it starts being harder to find work. At this stage either the cost of goods go down because automation is making them cheaper to produce OR the government steps up UBI to say 2500 per person per month. It costs more but the rich that are just hoovering up money because they aren't paying employees and aren't selling stuff more cheaply are in the highest tax bracket, meaning the government gets more money from taxes than ever, which is shifted back to the average person in UBI. Phase 3 - about 15-20 years after phase 2 ----------- Automation has improved to the level that it's doing basically everything. Jobs start to be more and more rare. I'd say this phase starts as soon as there are jobs for less than 50% of americans. Theres more people that can't work than can. UBI has gradually grown throughout phase 2 and might be up to like the equivalent of 4000 a month per person. Everyone can afford to live comfortably now even without working. People with jobs feel less and less like there is any point in working because UBI is now enough money to get just about anything they want outside of luxury but is that luxury really worth the time and effort of a job? Labor shortages in those remaining sub 50% of jobs will give the final push for companies to fully to automate everything. Rather rapidly, the total jobs for humans will go from about 45% to about 10%. This will be a good 25 years into automation development. We will have fake AI that is indistinguishable from humans. You won't know if you were served by a human or a robot and you'll have 25 years of normalization as well so thats just how things are. At this point money loses it's purpose. The people owning businesses make all the money but it's just redistributed back to the people which then goes back into the hands of the business owners. Otherwise people would have no money to spend on those businesses anyway. Phase 4 ------------ Money disappears. It's purpose lost when the vast vast majority of jobs became automated. Having one of the remaining jobs becomes a position of honor. People struggle with their lack of purpose. Even if most humans died, the world would still function the same. I have a tough time predicting where the world goes from here. Perhaps virtual reality becomes the normal escape, perhaps we alter the human mind with nanobots to just be content and fulfilled. Who knows? LinkPizza posted... I would spend my time nice wooden plaques for people where the materials cost $45 and I sold them for $50 Because if you don't, someone else will. Thats the driving force behind capitalism. People would see that it only costs 45 dollars and a few hours of labor to make a wood carving, see that you charge 200 bucks, and do it themselves for 150. You'd lose your customers and be forced to either quit or drop your price down to 150 so you drop yours down. The competing business can still make a profit if they go lower so they do and all your customers go to them again leaving you screwed and this keeps happening until one of you can't afford to go lower and still break even. The problem lies with money in the market and cost of entry. If 1000 people buy wood carvings a year then at 195 bucks there is 1000150 = 150k profit in the industry. If another business comes along and offers wood carvings for half the price, they end up with the full market share, but the total money in the market drops down to 50k. Instead they could keep their at 195k and split the market which would have them making 75k and you making 75k. 75 > 50. Additionally, wood carving is something anyone can get into. If you 2 share at 195 per carving, anyone at all can come in and sell for 180. If instead of wood carving it was say, internet service providers, the cost of entry goes from a few dollars to a few billion dollars AND the rights to lay a bunch of cables which ISPs have rigged to be borderline impossible to get. If I think comcast is shit it doesn't matter because I can't get into the industry to compete since I don't have several billion dollars laying around a bunch of politicians in my pocket to give me the rights to lay the cables. --- I'm ninja (you can't see me) <cite>YoukaiSlayer posted [p:943798615] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>If everything was free, then money would be useless</quote>Which is exactly what will happen. Money exists cause it serves a purpose and that purpose is going to disappear. I think some of the confusion here is my fault cause I'm talking about several different points on the timeline here so let me establish how I think things should go. Phase 1 - current day or a few years down the line ------------ UBI is implemented. Adults get 1500+1500 for each dependent they take care of. Jobs are unchanged so everyone working is still working the same hours. Disability, unemployment, welfare, etc all disappear because UBI makes them irrelevant except maybe medicare/medicaid but this won't be an issue in the next phase. The government can gradually start implementing taxes to encourage automation development and use. A solid minimum wage could probably do the trick but so could taxing human labor. Maybe a little of both. You no longer have to work if you really don't want to, but you will have to make sacrifices if you don't work. You are going to be living a cheap life in a cheap area if you don't want to work. If you do want to work, it'll actually be easier than ever, because some people currently holding jobs will quit to live off of UBI meaning more jobs available. Production will suffer somewhat during this time which will naturally result in paying people more which will result in automation being more favorable for companies. Phase 2 - about 10 years after phase 1 ----------- Automation development really starts pay off and implementation goes way up. At this point, many jobs are lost to automation and it starts being harder to find work. At this stage either the cost of goods go down because automation is making them cheaper to produce OR the government steps up UBI to say 2500 per person per month. It costs more but the rich that are just hoovering up money because they aren't paying employees and aren't selling stuff more cheaply are in the highest tax bracket, meaning the government gets more money from taxes than ever, which is shifted back to the average person in UBI. Phase 3 - about 15-20 years after phase 2 ----------- Automation has improved to the level that it's doing basically everything. Jobs start to be more and more rare. I'd say this phase starts as soon as there are jobs for less than 50% of americans. Theres more people that can't work than can. UBI has gradually grown throughout phase 2 and might be up to like the equivalent of 4000 a month per person. Everyone can afford to live comfortably now even without working. People with jobs feel less and less like there is any point in working because UBI is now enough money to get just about anything they want outside of luxury but is that luxury really worth the time and effort of a job? Labor shortages in those remaining sub 50% of jobs will give the final push for companies to fully to automate everything. Rather rapidly, the total jobs for humans will go from about 45% to about 10%. This will be a good 25 years into automation development. We will have fake AI that is indistinguishable from humans. You won't know if you were served by a human or a robot and you'll have 25 years of normalization as well so thats just how things are. At this point money loses it's purpose. The people owning businesses make all the money but it's just redistributed back to the people which then goes back into the hands of the business owners. Otherwise people would have no money to spend on those businesses anyway. Phase 4 ------------ Money disappears. It's purpose lost when the vast vast majority of jobs became automated. Having one of the remaining jobs becomes a position of honor. People struggle with their lack of purpose. Even if most humans died, the world would still function the same. I have a tough time predicting where the world goes from here. Perhaps virtual reality becomes the normal escape, perhaps we alter the human mind with nanobots to just be content and fulfilled. Who knows? LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>I would spend my time nice wooden plaques for people where the materials cost $45 and I sold them for $50</quote>Because if you don't, someone else will. Thats the driving force behind capitalism. People would see that it only costs 45 dollars and a few hours of labor to make a wood carving, see that you charge 200 bucks, and do it themselves for 150. You'd lose your customers and be forced to either quit or drop your price down to 150 so you drop yours down. The competing business can still make a profit if they go lower so they do and all your customers go to them again leaving you screwed and this keeps happening until one of you can't afford to go lower and still break even. The problem lies with money in the market and cost of entry. If 1000 people buy wood carvings a year then at 195 bucks there is 1000150 = 150k profit in the industry. If another business comes along and offers wood carvings for half the price, they end up with the full market share, but the total money in the market drops down to 50k. Instead they could keep their at 195k and split the market which would have them making 75k and you making 75k. 75 > 50. Additionally, wood carving is something anyone can get into. If you 2 share at 195 per carving, anyone at all can come in and sell for 180. If instead of wood carving it was say, internet service providers, the cost of entry goes from a few dollars to a few billion dollars AND the rights to lay a bunch of cables which ISPs have rigged to be borderline impossible to get. If I think comcast is shit it doesn't matter because I can't get into the industry to compete since I don't have several billion dollars laying around a bunch of politicians in my pocket to give me the rights to lay the cables. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/25/20 1:09:15 PM #92:	YoukaiSlayer posted... Which is exactly what will happen. Money exists cause it serves a purpose and that purpose is going to disappear. Then theres not point in UBI. Just make it all free. Though, I dont ever see that happening. Like ever. Nothing short of actually seeing it will convince me of that. And even then, I wont actually believe it. Partially because it would be hard to get everyone to make everything free at the same time... People who have more money (and therefore, more power) wont want to give up that power... YoukaiSlayer posted... Phase 1 - current day or a few years down the line ------------ UBI is implemented. Adults get 1500+1500 for each dependent they take care of. Jobs are unchanged so everyone working is still working the same hours. Disability, unemployment, welfare, etc all disappear because UBI makes them irrelevant except maybe medicare/medicaid but this won't be an issue in the next phase. The government can gradually start implementing taxes to encourage automation development and use. A solid minimum wage could probably do the trick but so could taxing human labor. Maybe a little of both. You no longer have to work if you really don't want to, but you will have to make sacrifices if you don't work. You are going to be living a cheap life in a cheap area if you don't want to work. If you do want to work, it'll actually be easier than ever, because some people currently holding jobs will quit to live off of UBI meaning more jobs available. Production will suffer somewhat during this time which will naturally result in paying people more which will result in automation being more favorable for companies. I dont see them giving 1500 per dependent. Maybe a couple hundred, if that... As for no longer working, I honestly dont see that as a choice for many people. I know enough people that would need more than 1500 per month. For couples, 3000 might be enough. But it depends on where they live. But I dont see not working as a choice for a majority of people... I also dont see how more jobs will be available. Since many people will still need to work jobs, but most jobs all now not available... And I dont think they will actually pay people more. Well, most places. Some places might, but the pay could possibly go down once more people work there. YoukaiSlayer posted... Phase 2 - about 10 years after phase 1 ----------- Automation development really starts pay off and implementation goes way up. At this point, many jobs are lost to automation and it starts being harder to find work. At this stage either the cost of goods go down because automation is making them cheaper to produce OR the government steps up UBI to say 2500 per person per month. It costs more but the rich that are just hoovering up money because they aren't paying employees and aren't selling stuff more cheaply are in the highest tax bracket, meaning the government gets more money from taxes than ever, which is shifted back to the average person in UBI. Assuming we make it through phase, or even to phase 1, why do you assume things will cost less? The cost of production for many things are already low. The price of some things go down. Others stay the same so that they can make a bigger profit. And since they know people have money, they may not actually lower the prices. The problem is assuming that prices will go down just because, when the most likely scenario is prices staying the same (or only being slightly cheaper). I mean, while some people think automation is made to make life easier for us, its really to make things cheaper for them. And they arent making it cheaper to help us. Theyre making it cheaper to fill their pockets. And I highly doubt thats they will raise UBI. They barely want to raise minimum wage... YoukaiSlayer posted... Phase 3 - about 15-20 years after phase 2 ----------- Automation has improved to the level that it's doing basically everything. Jobs start to be more and more rare. I'd say this phase starts as soon as there are jobs for less than 50% of americans. Theres more people that can't work than can. UBI has gradually grown throughout phase 2 and might be up to like the equivalent of 4000 a month per person. Everyone can afford to live comfortably now even without working. People with jobs feel less and less like there is any point in working because UBI is now enough money to get just about anything they want outside of luxury but is that luxury really worth the time and effort of a job? Labor shortages in those remaining sub 50% of jobs will give the final push for companies to fully to automate everything. Rather rapidly, the total jobs for humans will go from about 45% to about 10%. This will be a good 25 years into automation development. We will have fake AI that is indistinguishable from humans. You won't know if you were served by a human or a robot and you'll have 25 years of normalization as well so thats just how things are. At this point money loses it's purpose. The people owning businesses make all the money but it's just redistributed back to the people which then goes back into the hands of the business owners. Otherwise people would have no money to spend on those businesses anyway. Again, I dont even see UBI raising the first time, let alone a second... So, if eve ru thing else relies on that, then I dont see any of it happening. And I also dont see all jobs being automated. Maybe in like 50 years, but even then. And I can also tell you many of the jobs in the Air Force wont be automated, based on how they do things. And stuff like living people who cook and make stuff probably still wont go away. Then again, maybe since they get nothing, they will. Whatever, I guess... Also, I feel people would still know the difference between a robot and human... And like I said, I dont see money being devalued because I believe companies will still be asking for it. As a personal side note, I hope Im dead long before we have to rely on automation for anything... YoukaiSlayer posted... Phase 4 ------------ Money disappears. It's purpose lost when the vast vast majority of jobs became automated. Having one of the remaining jobs becomes a position of honor. People struggle with their lack of purpose. Even if most humans died, the world would still function the same. I have a tough time predicting where the world goes from here. Perhaps virtual reality becomes the normal escape, perhaps we alter the human mind with nanobots to just be content and fulfilled. Who knows? I like that you have this fantasy world planned out, but I cant even imagine that happening. Best case scenario, we wind up like the people on Wall-E. And if thats the case, we might as well go extinct now... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943804131] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Which is exactly what will happen. Money exists cause it serves a purpose and that purpose is going to disappear.</quote> Then theres not point in UBI. Just make it all free. Though, I dont ever see that happening. Like ever. Nothing short of actually seeing it will convince me of that. And even then, I wont actually believe it. Partially because it would be hard to get everyone to make everything free at the same time... People who have more money (and therefore, more power) wont want to give up that power... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Phase 1 - current day or a few years down the line ------------ UBI is implemented. Adults get 1500+1500 for each dependent they take care of. Jobs are unchanged so everyone working is still working the same hours. Disability, unemployment, welfare, etc all disappear because UBI makes them irrelevant except maybe medicare/medicaid but this won't be an issue in the next phase. The government can gradually start implementing taxes to encourage automation development and use. A solid minimum wage could probably do the trick but so could taxing human labor. Maybe a little of both. You no longer have to work if you really don't want to, but you will have to make sacrifices if you don't work. You are going to be living a cheap life in a cheap area if you don't want to work. If you do want to work, it'll actually be easier than ever, because some people currently holding jobs will quit to live off of UBI meaning more jobs available. Production will suffer somewhat during this time which will naturally result in paying people more which will result in automation being more favorable for companies.</quote> I dont see them giving 1500 per dependent. Maybe a couple hundred, if that... As for no longer working, I honestly dont see that as a choice for many people. I know enough people that would need more than 1500 per month. For couples, 3000 might be enough. But it depends on where they live. But I dont see not working as a choice for a majority of people... I also dont see how more jobs will be available. Since many people will still need to work jobs, but most jobs all now not available... And I dont think they will actually pay people more. Well, most places. Some places might, but the pay could possibly go down once more people work there. YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Phase 2 - about 10 years after phase 1 ----------- Automation development really starts pay off and implementation goes way up. At this point, many jobs are lost to automation and it starts being harder to find work. At this stage either the cost of goods go down because automation is making them cheaper to produce OR the government steps up UBI to say 2500 per person per month. It costs more but the rich that are just hoovering up money because they aren't paying employees and aren't selling stuff more cheaply are in the highest tax bracket, meaning the government gets more money from taxes than ever, which is shifted back to the average person in UBI.</quote> Assuming we make it through phase, or even to phase 1, why do you assume things will cost less? The cost of production for many things are already low. The price of some things go down. Others stay the same so that they can make a bigger profit. And since they know people have money, they may not actually lower the prices. The problem is assuming that prices will go down just because, when the most likely scenario is prices staying the same (or only being slightly cheaper). I mean, while some people think automation is made to make life easier for us, its really to make things cheaper for them. And they arent making it cheaper to help us. Theyre making it cheaper to fill their pockets. And I highly doubt thats they will raise UBI. They barely want to raise minimum wage... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Phase 3 - about 15-20 years after phase 2 ----------- Automation has improved to the level that it's doing basically everything. Jobs start to be more and more rare. I'd say this phase starts as soon as there are jobs for less than 50% of americans. Theres more people that can't work than can. UBI has gradually grown throughout phase 2 and might be up to like the equivalent of 4000 a month per person. Everyone can afford to live comfortably now even without working. People with jobs feel less and less like there is any point in working because UBI is now enough money to get just about anything they want outside of luxury but is that luxury really worth the time and effort of a job? Labor shortages in those remaining sub 50% of jobs will give the final push for companies to fully to automate everything. Rather rapidly, the total jobs for humans will go from about 45% to about 10%. This will be a good 25 years into automation development. We will have fake AI that is indistinguishable from humans. You won't know if you were served by a human or a robot and you'll have 25 years of normalization as well so thats just how things are. At this point money loses it's purpose. The people owning businesses make all the money but it's just redistributed back to the people which then goes back into the hands of the business owners. Otherwise people would have no money to spend on those businesses anyway.</quote> Again, I dont even see UBI raising the first time, let alone a second... So, if eve ru thing else relies on that, then I dont see any of it happening. And I also dont see all jobs being automated. Maybe in like 50 years, but even then. And I can also tell you many of the jobs in the Air Force wont be automated, based on how they do things. And stuff like living people who cook and make stuff probably still wont go away. Then again, maybe since they get nothing, they will. Whatever, I guess... Also, I feel people would still know the difference between a robot and human... And like I said, I dont see money being devalued because I believe companies will still be asking for it. As a personal side note, I hope Im dead long before we have to rely on automation for anything... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Phase 4 ------------ Money disappears. It's purpose lost when the vast vast majority of jobs became automated. Having one of the remaining jobs becomes a position of honor. People struggle with their lack of purpose. Even if most humans died, the world would still function the same. I have a tough time predicting where the world goes from here. Perhaps virtual reality becomes the normal escape, perhaps we alter the human mind with nanobots to just be content and fulfilled. Who knows?</quote> I like that you have this fantasy world planned out, but I cant even imagine that happening. Best case scenario, we wind up like the people on Wall-E. And if thats the case, we might as well go extinct now...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/25/20 1:09:25 PM #93:	YoukaiSlayer posted... Because if you don't, someone else will. Thats the driving force behind capitalism. People would see that it only costs 45 dollars and a few hours of labor to make a wood carving, see that you charge 200 bucks, and do it themselves for 150. You'd lose your customers and be forced to either quit or drop your price down to 150 so you drop yours down. The competing business can still make a profit if they go lower so they do and all your customers go to them again leaving you screwed and this keeps happening until one of you can't afford to go lower and still break even. Not necessarily, though. You were saying how many people wouldnt want to work or have to. So, its possible itd be hard To find someone with the skill set you need who would basically waste their time doing something for you with nothing to gain. Which many people wont do unless youre a friend. And $5 isnt worth hours of a persons time in many cases. And if they wanted to do it themselves, then they would have done it. Not everybody can, or wants, to do it. Thats why they pay people to do it for them. And they will only go so low. They wont go low enough that they arent making more profit. But it doesnt mean people will stop going to them like youre assuming. People will still go to a more expensive place for many reasons, like I stated before. Brand name, quality, etc. It happens with tools all the time. I know many people who buy more expensive tools because of the brand. YoukaiSlayer posted... The problem lies with money in the market and cost of entry. If 1000 people buy wood carvings a year then at 195 bucks there is 1000150 = 150k profit in the industry. If another business comes along and offers wood carvings for half the price, they end up with the full market share, but the total money in the market drops down to 50k. Instead they could keep their at 195k and split the market which would have them making 75k and you making 75k. 75 > 50. Thats assuming everyone goes to the cheaper place. Which they most likely wont. And that could be for any number of reasons. One reason being they have so many orders, many will pay the other places because they can have them ready sooner. Or they know the owner. Or they dont like the other owner. Possibly quality of the carving. Type of wood they use. Or like a hundred other reasons. YoukaiSlayer posted... Additionally, wood carving is something anyone can get into. If you 2 share at 195 per carving, anyone at all can come in and sell for 180. If instead of wood carving it was say, internet service providers, the cost of entry goes from a few dollars to a few billion dollars AND the rights to lay a bunch of cables which ISPs have rigged to be borderline impossible to get. If I think comcast is shit it doesn't matter because I can't get into the industry to compete since I don't have several billion dollars laying around a bunch of politicians in my pocket to give me the rights to lay the cables. Sure, anyone can get into it. But that doesnt mean theyll make quality work. Or have the right tools. I know at the base Im at, some of the guys that do carving also have lasers they use. Sometimes, to burn things into the wood, for example. Not everybody knows how to use a laser, or fix one, or even has one. And just because someone sells one at $15 cheaper doesnt mean everyone will go there. If a couple bucks was all it took, they many store would be out of business when certain places are cheaper. Almost all gas stations would go under because their would be massive lines at only one gas station. You know why its not like that? Because not everyone will go to a place just because its cheaper. Some may go to a person because theyve gone to that person for everything before. Ive mentioned multiple times that not everyone goes a different route just because something is cheaper somewhere else... --- Official King of Kings* Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943804141] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Because if you don't, someone else will. Thats the driving force behind capitalism. People would see that it only costs 45 dollars and a few hours of labor to make a wood carving, see that you charge 200 bucks, and do it themselves for 150. You'd lose your customers and be forced to either quit or drop your price down to 150 so you drop yours down. The competing business can still make a profit if they go lower so they do and all your customers go to them again leaving you screwed and this keeps happening until one of you can't afford to go lower and still break even.</quote> Not necessarily, though. You were saying how many people wouldnt want to work or have to. So, its possible itd be hard To find someone with the skill set you need who would basically waste their time doing something for you with nothing to gain. Which many people wont do unless youre a friend. And $5 isnt worth hours of a persons time in many cases. And if they wanted to do it themselves, then they would have done it. Not everybody can, or wants, to do it. Thats why they pay people to do it for them. And they will only go so low. They wont go low enough that they arent making more profit. But it doesnt mean people will stop going to them like youre assuming. People will still go to a more expensive place for many reasons, like I stated before. Brand name, quality, etc. It happens with tools all the time. I know many people who buy more expensive tools because of the brand. YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>The problem lies with money in the market and cost of entry. If 1000 people buy wood carvings a year then at 195 bucks there is 1000*150 = 150k profit in the industry. If another business comes along and offers wood carvings for half the price, they end up with the full market share, but the total money in the market drops down to 50k. Instead they could keep their at 195k and split the market which would have them making 75k and you making 75k. 75 > 50.</quote> Thats assuming everyone goes to the cheaper place. Which they most likely wont. And that could be for any number of reasons. One reason being they have so many orders, many will pay the other places because they can have them ready sooner. Or they know the owner. Or they dont like the other owner. Possibly quality of the carving. Type of wood they use. Or like a hundred other reasons. YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Additionally, wood carving is something anyone can get into. If you 2 share at 195 per carving, anyone at all can come in and sell for 180. If instead of wood carving it was say, internet service providers, the cost of entry goes from a few dollars to a few billion dollars AND the rights to lay a bunch of cables which ISPs have rigged to be borderline impossible to get. If I think comcast is shit it doesn't matter because I can't get into the industry to compete since I don't have several billion dollars laying around a bunch of politicians in my pocket to give me the rights to lay the cables.</quote> Sure, anyone can get into it. But that doesnt mean theyll make quality work. Or have the right tools. I know at the base Im at, some of the guys that do carving also have lasers they use. Sometimes, to burn things into the wood, for example. Not everybody knows how to use a laser, or fix one, or even has one. And just because someone sells one at $15 cheaper doesnt mean everyone will go there. If a couple bucks was all it took, they many store would be out of business when certain places are cheaper. Almost all gas stations would go under because their would be massive lines at only one gas station. You know why its not like that? Because not everyone will go to a place just because its cheaper. Some may go to a person because theyve gone to that person for everything before. Ive mentioned multiple times that not everyone goes a different route just because something is cheaper somewhere else...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChaosAzeroth 08/25/20 1:37:08 PM #94:	Krazy_Kirby posted... good thing i don't shop at places with memberships, so i don't have to stop for that crap WalMart doesn't have a membership. <cite>ChaosAzeroth posted [p:943805193] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Krazy_Kirby posted... </cite> <quote>good thing i don't shop at places with memberships, so i don't have to stop for that crap</quote> WalMart doesn't have a membership. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
YoukaiSlayer 08/25/20 1:37:29 PM #95:	LinkPizza posted... As for no longer working, I honestly dont see that as a choice for many people. I know enough people that would need more than 1500 per month. For couples, 3000 might be enough. But it depends on where they live. But I dont see not working as a choice for a majority of people... I also dont see how more jobs will be available. Since many people will still need to work jobs, but most jobs all now not available... And I dont think they will actually pay people more. Well, most places. Some places might, but the pay could possibly go down once more people work there. I explained it pretty clearly. At this phase, no automation has been implemented (or rather, no more than currently is implemented). No jobs have been lost to automation at this point. All jobs are still available. SOME people will choose to live on a meager 1500 a month to avoid working. Their jobs will be vacant. Total # of jobs stays the same, total number of people working goes down. This will be especially true for low paying menial work like fast food and day labor. Companies still need this work done though, so they will have no choice but to increase their pay. Companies naturally won't like this and will look for cheaper alternatives which will lead them to automation. LinkPizza posted... Assuming we make it through phase, or even to phase 1, why do you assume things will cost less? The cost of production for many things are already low. I don't. The price to make the goods will go down with automation until it eventually reaches zero. If you have robots doing everything, including getting the materials to make and power the robots, it's become free for whoever them to operate. I outlined two possibilities. One in which the companies pass those savings on to us. This would mean things get cheaper. I think what determines this will be how well shared the automation is. If it's not too hard to get and make your own automated system, then consumers should benefit because companies will compete on price. If companies manage to effectively safeguard automation technology then they probably will keep things expensive. That leads to the second possibility, things cost the same, but company owners make more profit. This is what you are saying will happen. If thats the case, all that money they make will be taxed and since they are in the highest tax bracket, that results in more total taxes being collected without changing how taxes work at all. The more money that is spread to lower tax bracketed people, the less total taxes get collected. With this abundance of tax revenue, they can afford to increase UBI. Company owners will even want this because it means people have more spending money to funnel right back to the company owners. It's in the best interest of the rich and the poor to do this. LinkPizza posted... And stuff like living people who cook and make stuff probably still wont go away. Then again, maybe since they get nothing, they will. Whatever, I guess.. It'll be a case of novelty. Robots can be designed to do literally everything humans do, but better. They can make better food, they can create better products, they can do just about anything. We aren't there yet, but we will be and soon. Additionally, theres no reason to think robots won't look exactly like people. In fact, we are pretty damn close to already having that. There will be a day when a robot can be made that you won't be tell apart from a human even without neural networks (which is what I consider real AI). LinkPizza posted... Best case scenario, we wind up like the people on Wall-E. And if thats the case, we might as well go extinct now... I never saw wall-e but people are basically biological machines. We can be changed to function and thrive in whatever the future looks like. We already do this shit with stuff like anti depressants and recreational drugs. The body can be theoretically altered to keep itself in shape without exercise for instance. Just like with lifelike robots, we aren't there yet, but we also aren't as far away as you probably think. LinkPizza posted... As a personal side note, I hope Im dead long before we have to rely on automation for anything... This kind of thinking does concern me. Still, progress only goes one way, it's going to happen unless we go extinct first. --- I'm ninja (you can't see me) <cite>YoukaiSlayer posted [p:943805206] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>As for no longer working, I honestly dont see that as a choice for many people. I know enough people that would need more than 1500 per month. For couples, 3000 might be enough. But it depends on where they live. But I dont see not working as a choice for a majority of people... I also dont see how more jobs will be available. Since many people will still need to work jobs, but most jobs all now not available... And I dont think they will actually pay people more. Well, most places. Some places might, but the pay could possibly go down once more people work there.</quote>I explained it pretty clearly. At this phase, no automation has been implemented (or rather, no more than currently is implemented). No jobs have been lost to automation at this point. All jobs are still available. SOME people will choose to live on a meager 1500 a month to avoid working. Their jobs will be vacant. Total # of jobs stays the same, total number of people working goes down. This will be especially true for low paying menial work like fast food and day labor. Companies still need this work done though, so they will have no choice but to increase their pay. Companies naturally won't like this and will look for cheaper alternatives which will lead them to automation. LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Assuming we make it through phase, or even to phase 1, why do you assume things will cost less? The cost of production for many things are already low.</quote>I don't. The price to make the goods will go down with automation until it eventually reaches zero. If you have robots doing everything, including getting the materials to make and power the robots, it's become free for whoever them to operate. I outlined two possibilities. One in which the companies pass those savings on to us. This would mean things get cheaper. I think what determines this will be how well shared the automation is. If it's not too hard to get and make your own automated system, then consumers should benefit because companies will compete on price. If companies manage to effectively safeguard automation technology then they probably will keep things expensive. That leads to the second possibility, things cost the same, but company owners make more profit. This is what you are saying will happen. If thats the case, all that money they make will be taxed and since they are in the highest tax bracket, that results in more total taxes being collected without changing how taxes work at all. The more money that is spread to lower tax bracketed people, the less total taxes get collected. With this abundance of tax revenue, they can afford to increase UBI. Company owners will even want this because it means people have more spending money to funnel right back to the company owners. It's in the best interest of the rich and the poor to do this. LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>And stuff like living people who cook and make stuff probably still wont go away. Then again, maybe since they get nothing, they will. Whatever, I guess..</quote>It'll be a case of novelty. Robots can be designed to do literally everything humans do, but better. They can make better food, they can create better products, they can do just about anything. We aren't there yet, but we will be and soon. Additionally, theres no reason to think robots won't look exactly like people. In fact, we are pretty damn close to already having that. There will be a day when a robot can be made that you won't be tell apart from a human even without neural networks (which is what I consider real AI). LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>Best case scenario, we wind up like the people on Wall-E. And if thats the case, we might as well go extinct now...</quote>I never saw wall-e but people are basically biological machines. We can be changed to function and thrive in whatever the future looks like. We already do this shit with stuff like anti depressants and recreational drugs. The body can be theoretically altered to keep itself in shape without exercise for instance. Just like with lifelike robots, we aren't there yet, but we also aren't as far away as you probably think. LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>As a personal side note, I hope Im dead long before we have to rely on automation for anything...</quote>This kind of thinking does concern me. Still, progress only goes one way, it's going to happen unless we go extinct first. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
YoukaiSlayer 08/25/20 1:39:24 PM #96:	LinkPizza posted... $15 cheaper doesnt mean everyone will go there. If a couple bucks was all it took, they many store would be out of business when certain places are cheaper. Are you not aware that walmart has utterly devastated thousands and thousands of businesses because of exactly this? Wood carvings isn't an industry worth getting into for most big businesses, but if it were, you'd have trouble selling for more than they do. --- I'm ninja (you can't see me) <cite>YoukaiSlayer posted [p:943805282] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>LinkPizza posted... </cite> <quote>$15 cheaper doesnt mean everyone will go there. If a couple bucks was all it took, they many store would be out of business when certain places are cheaper.</quote>Are you not aware that walmart has utterly devastated thousands and thousands of businesses because of exactly this? Wood carvings isn't an industry worth getting into for most big businesses, but if it were, you'd have trouble selling for more than they do. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Krazy_Kirby 08/25/20 1:47:35 PM #97:	ChaosAzeroth posted... WalMart doesn't have a membership. and i don't stop, because i'm not required to --- Kill From The Shadows. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot <cite>Krazy_Kirby posted [p:943805590] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>ChaosAzeroth posted...</cite> <quote> WalMart doesn't have a membership. </quote> and i don't stop, because i'm not required to</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/25/20 6:52:10 PM #98:	YoukaiSlayer posted... I explained it pretty clearly. At this phase, no automation has been implemented (or rather, no more than currently is implemented). No jobs have been lost to automation at this point. All jobs are still available. SOME people will choose to live on a meager 1500 a month to avoid working. Their jobs will be vacant. Total # of jobs stays the same, total number of people working goes down. This will be especially true for low paying menial work like fast food and day labor. Companies still need this work done though, so they will have no choice but to increase their pay. Companies naturally won't like this and will look for cheaper alternatives which will lead them to automation. The problem is that while no new automation is added (like new types), old ones probably won't stop. Such as other stores still getting self-checkout lines, or that stupid Amazon store. I don't think stores in the process of getting self-checkout lines will just stop. Some places are still installing new ones. So, job are still being lost to that. And yes. Some people would choose to live on 1500. But there are many who would want to, but couldn't. Like literally could not. Which is why I said there are many who would have to work, even if they didn't want to. Whether it's because they need more money because they literally don't have enough, or because their family in miserable because they have to live like they're poor if they don't work... And just because some people quit doesn't mean that those companies will actually hire people to fill those positions. They might start consolidating and stuff. Especially if they plan on getting any type of automation or whatever. Meaning there could still be less jobs... And companies won't have to increase their pay. They'll just look harder. People always need a job. So, they'll just hire whoever, if they want to hire anyone at all... If someone just needs a minimum wage job to make ends meet because 1500 a month doesn't cut it for them, they might even work the job for less than the company was paying before... YoukaiSlayer posted... I don't. The price to make the goods will go down with automation until it eventually reaches zero. If you have robots doing everything, including getting the materials to make and power the robots, it's become free for whoever them to operate. I outlined two possibilities. One in which the companies pass those savings on to us. This would mean things get cheaper. I think what determines this will be how well shared the automation is. If it's not too hard to get and make your own automated system, then consumers should benefit because companies will compete on price. If companies manage to effectively safeguard automation technology then they probably will keep things expensive. That leads to the second possibility, things cost the same, but company owners make more profit. This is what you are saying will happen. If thats the case, all that money they make will be taxed and since they are in the highest tax bracket, that results in more total taxes being collected without changing how taxes work at all. The more money that is spread to lower tax bracketed people, the less total taxes get collected. With this abundance of tax revenue, they can afford to increase UBI. Company owners will even want this because it means people have more spending money to funnel right back to the company owners. It's in the best interest of the rich and the poor to do this. For you possibilities, I betting on the second one. Mainly because with automation, it helps the company gain more profits, which is why they are getting in to automation. With automation, they can pay less people, but still supposedly get the job done. Some of those profits will go to the upkeep of the stuff, like keeping the self-checkout lanes running. But the other part of the profit is there to line the pockets of the people in charge... You may think companies are getting automation for the consumers. But they are just getting it to line their pockets... They don't care about us as long as we keep buying from them. As for prices getting cheaper to compete, I only see them getting slightly cheaper. The CEOs still want money. If the prices go too low to the point they are making less than when they had humans, then getting automation was pointless. And they won't let that happen. Because again, they don't care about us. They care about their profit. And they won't raise the UBI. Because that means giving away more money. I don't understand why anyone thinks that'll happen. That extra tax they are collecting will go to whoever is collecting it. They aren't going to give it back to us. That would defeat the purpose of the tax in the first place... YoukaiSlayer posted... It'll be a case of novelty. Robots can be designed to do literally everything humans do, but better. They can make better food, they can create better products, they can do just about anything. We aren't there yet, but we will be and soon. Additionally, theres no reason to think robots won't look exactly like people. In fact, we are pretty damn close to already having that. There will be a day when a robot can be made that you won't be tell apart from a human even without neural networks (which is what I consider real AI). I wouldn't say better in every case. I mean, some people want humans to do it because humans can actually sometimes do it better. Robots have to be programmed to do something. Meaning it will always do it the same. Where in the case of a chef, he can make the same dish, but change it ever so slightly to make it fit two different people better. And they can do it without even asking if they know the person well enough. So, I don't really think they can do it better. Maybe many year in the future, it might be able to, but who knows. Even with products, I feel humans can give things their own personal touch. Or change something slightly to make it better for a person. I just don't see that happening with robots anytime soon. I think there will always be a way. Some people won't want them looking exactly like us... YoukaiSlayer posted... I never saw wall-e but people are basically biological machines. We can be changed to function and thrive in whatever the future looks like. We already do this shit with stuff like anti depressants and recreational drugs. The body can be theoretically altered to keep itself in shape without exercise for instance. Just like with lifelike robots, we aren't there yet, but we also aren't as far away as you probably think. Well, in Wall-e, everyone becomes a fat blob of a person because they don't walk around anymore. They have hover chairs. They apparently still breed somehow, though. Also, people do tend to live longer, but they are also basically being controlled by AI, even though they don't really know it. And they are eating people in the form of "cupcake in a cup"... Some other bad things, as well... Also, those lifelike robots won't be coming anywhere near me... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943817180] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>I explained it pretty clearly. At this phase, no automation has been implemented (or rather, no more than currently is implemented). No jobs have been lost to automation at this point. All jobs are still available. SOME people will choose to live on a meager 1500 a month to avoid working. Their jobs will be vacant. Total # of jobs stays the same, total number of people working goes down. This will be especially true for low paying menial work like fast food and day labor. Companies still need this work done though, so they will have no choice but to increase their pay. Companies naturally won't like this and will look for cheaper alternatives which will lead them to automation.</quote> The problem is that while no new automation is added (like new types), old ones probably won't stop. Such as other stores still getting self-checkout lines, or that stupid Amazon store. I don't think stores in the process of getting self-checkout lines will just stop. Some places are still installing new ones. So, job are still being lost to that. And yes. Some people would choose to live on 1500. But there are many who would want to, but couldn't. Like literally could not. Which is why I said there are many who would have to work, even if they didn't want to. Whether it's because they need more money because they literally don't have enough, or because their family in miserable because they have to live like they're poor if they don't work... And just because some people quit doesn't mean that those companies will actually hire people to fill those positions. They might start consolidating and stuff. Especially if they plan on getting any type of automation or whatever. Meaning there could still be less jobs... And companies won't have to increase their pay. They'll just look harder. People always need a job. So, they'll just hire whoever, if they want to hire anyone at all... If someone just needs a minimum wage job to make ends meet because 1500 a month doesn't cut it for them, they might even work the job for less than the company was paying before... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>I don't. The price to make the goods will go down with automation until it eventually reaches zero. If you have robots doing everything, including getting the materials to make and power the robots, it's become free for whoever them to operate. I outlined two possibilities. One in which the companies pass those savings on to us. This would mean things get cheaper. I think what determines this will be how well shared the automation is. If it's not too hard to get and make your own automated system, then consumers should benefit because companies will compete on price. If companies manage to effectively safeguard automation technology then they probably will keep things expensive. That leads to the second possibility, things cost the same, but company owners make more profit. This is what you are saying will happen. If thats the case, all that money they make will be taxed and since they are in the highest tax bracket, that results in more total taxes being collected without changing how taxes work at all. The more money that is spread to lower tax bracketed people, the less total taxes get collected. With this abundance of tax revenue, they can afford to increase UBI. Company owners will even want this because it means people have more spending money to funnel right back to the company owners. It's in the best interest of the rich and the poor to do this.</quote> For you possibilities, I betting on the second one. Mainly because with automation, it helps the company gain more profits, which is why they are getting in to automation. With automation, they can pay less people, but still supposedly get the job done. Some of those profits will go to the upkeep of the stuff, like keeping the self-checkout lanes running. But the other part of the profit is there to line the pockets of the people in charge... You may think companies are getting automation for the consumers. But they are just getting it to line their pockets... They don't care about us as long as we keep buying from them. As for prices getting cheaper to compete, I only see them getting slightly cheaper. The CEOs still want money. If the prices go too low to the point they are making less than when they had humans, then getting automation was pointless. And they won't let that happen. Because again, they don't care about us. They care about their profit. And they won't raise the UBI. Because that means giving away more money. I don't understand why anyone thinks that'll happen. That extra tax they are collecting will go to whoever is collecting it. They aren't going to give it back to us. That would defeat the purpose of the tax in the first place... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>It'll be a case of novelty. Robots can be designed to do literally everything humans do, but better. They can make better food, they can create better products, they can do just about anything. We aren't there yet, but we will be and soon. Additionally, theres no reason to think robots won't look exactly like people. In fact, we are pretty damn close to already having that. There will be a day when a robot can be made that you won't be tell apart from a human even without neural networks (which is what I consider real AI).</quote> I wouldn't say better in every case. I mean, some people want humans to do it because humans can actually sometimes do it better. Robots have to be programmed to do something. Meaning it will always do it the same. Where in the case of a chef, he can make the same dish, but change it ever so slightly to make it fit two different people better. And they can do it without even asking if they know the person well enough. So, I don't really think they can do it better. Maybe many year in the future, it might be able to, but who knows. Even with products, I feel humans can give things their own personal touch. Or change something slightly to make it better for a person. I just don't see that happening with robots anytime soon. I think there will always be a way. Some people won't want them looking exactly like us... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>I never saw wall-e but people are basically biological machines. We can be changed to function and thrive in whatever the future looks like. We already do this shit with stuff like anti depressants and recreational drugs. The body can be theoretically altered to keep itself in shape without exercise for instance. Just like with lifelike robots, we aren't there yet, but we also aren't as far away as you probably think.</quote> Well, in Wall-e, everyone becomes a fat blob of a person because they don't walk around anymore. They have hover chairs. They apparently still breed somehow, though. Also, people do tend to live longer, but they are also basically being controlled by AI, even though they don't really know it. And they are eating people in the form of "cupcake in a cup"... Some other bad things, as well... Also, those lifelike robots won't be coming anywhere near me...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/25/20 6:52:14 PM #99:	YoukaiSlayer posted... This kind of thinking does concern me. Still, progress only goes one way, it's going to happen unless we go extinct first. That's fine. I just don't like automation. And I honestly don't trust it to do better than humans. I mean, they can't even get apps right to where you can ask for specific things for certain ones. I can't use the Chipotle or Subway app to get what I want, which sucks... I personally avoid most automation if I can. Like I almost never use self-checkout lanes. And haven't for probably a couple years now. And I'll continue to avoid them for as long as I can... And I won't get a self-driving car, either... YoukaiSlayer posted... Are you not aware that walmart has utterly devastated thousands and thousands of businesses because of exactly this? Wood carvings isn't an industry worth getting into for most big businesses, but if it were, you'd have trouble selling for more than they do. Yeah. Sure. But not every business. We have 3 Wal-marts in my town. They all get plenty of business. Yet, many of the other stores of all kinds are still around. And get a good amount of business, as well. Because people still shop at those other places. For many reasons... And probably not. Some big businesses have certain issues or restrictions. Also, time constraints. We do have places that do wood stuff around where I live. Yet most people go to my co-worker. He can get them done in a timely matter. And can make exactly what they want. And even adds stuff for them. Again, it's not always about cheaper from being a big business. People go to him all the time. Some might switch if Wal-mart started doing wood carvings. Many would still come to him. Some to help his business more, others because they're friends. --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943817183] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>This kind of thinking does concern me. Still, progress only goes one way, it's going to happen unless we go extinct first.</quote> That's fine. I just don't like automation. And I honestly don't trust it to do better than humans. I mean, they can't even get apps right to where you can ask for specific things for certain ones. I can't use the Chipotle or Subway app to get what I want, which sucks... I personally avoid most automation if I can. Like I almost never use self-checkout lanes. And haven't for probably a couple years now. And I'll continue to avoid them for as long as I can... And I won't get a self-driving car, either... YoukaiSlayer posted...</cite> <quote>Are you not aware that walmart has utterly devastated thousands and thousands of businesses because of exactly this? Wood carvings isn't an industry worth getting into for most big businesses, but if it were, you'd have trouble selling for more than they do.</quote> Yeah. Sure. But not every business. We have 3 Wal-marts in my town. They all get plenty of business. Yet, many of the other stores of all kinds are still around. And get a good amount of business, as well. Because people still shop at those other places. For many reasons... And probably not. Some big businesses have certain issues or restrictions. Also, time constraints. We do have places that do wood stuff around where I live. Yet most people go to my co-worker. He can get them done in a timely matter. And can make exactly what they want. And even adds stuff for them. Again, it's not always about cheaper from being a big business. People go to him all the time. Some might switch if Wal-mart started doing wood carvings. Many would still come to him. Some to help his business more, others because they're friends.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 08/25/20 7:16:09 PM #100:	Slayer is spot on as long as things progress without massive wars/chaos etc, we are already past the point where money is needed and most humans need to work, we just have not implemented the methods yet. We could already automate maybe 70% of all jobs, and once automated the "cost" to maintain it would be very low. The main problem is if you do that, you destroy our caste system (poor/middle class/rich), and the rich really don't want that destroyed (While also having all the power). Think about most jobs and you can easily figure out a way to automate it, or have 1 human do the work of 20+ humans with the help of automation. If you start creating products based on having them be worked on by machines (cars etc) this increases the number drastically. Money is used to pay for services primarily, so once there is no services or need for them, money becomes obsolete, other then to differentiate cast levels (more money means you can own/purchase more things etc). Eventually I predict a digital currency that is used in most online/virtual games/stores/entertainments etc, as well as the real world. Money may still be useful/used in such a case, but primarily in a virtual world, not the real world. Work also will exist, but again, primarily in a virtual world, you can make money playing games and selling items, you can make money entertaining people virtually (already exists through things like twitch and camgirls etc), you can make money creating new digital content (this is going to be a big one) etc. Schools will also change to primarily be virtual/online I would imagine and focus heavily on things like programing skills etc (which eventually will be much easier/simple than even what we have now (Look back at assembly language/machine language, then Basic, then C+ etc, programming has become easier/more streamlined as we go). Imagine trying to make a modern game with current graphics while programming in Basic and plotting each graphical point lol). We are on the cusp of a different world, but I don't think I'll live long enough, and certainly won't see long enough, to see it (unless they make mechanical eyes for me or something.....it's possible I guess). It's.....actually horrible.....really really sad, that the world is like it is, with the technology we currently have. Everyone could already be living really amazing lives with the freedom to do what they wanted, to learn what they wanted, no medical worries (they could get sick, but health care would be available for anyone). We have the resources and the technology to make the world a utopia, while not increasing global warming, not destroying nature/wild life etc. We don't do it because it's not "profitable" for the rich and wealthy who not only can already do all those things, but......get the satisfaction of knowing most people can't. People still die of starvation around the world, people die of exposure, people die because of easily treated medical conditions (like my wife), people are stuffed into over crowded cages (prisons) etc. None of that is neccesary, none of that is unavoidable. That is the sadest thing about the human race, we could live in heaven, but instead, we make this existence hell for many of us, and hold out the illusion or promise of heaven to get most of us to work/be slaves, even when that isn't actually needed anymore. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Glowing Elephant "Stonehedge was a sex thing." <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:943818197] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>Slayer is spot on as long as things progress without massive wars/chaos etc, we are already past the point where money is needed and most humans need to work, we just have not implemented the methods yet. We could already automate maybe 70% of all jobs, and once automated the "cost" to maintain it would be very low. The main problem is if you do that, you destroy our caste system (poor/middle class/rich), and the rich really don't want that destroyed (While also having all the power). Think about most jobs and you can easily figure out a way to automate it, or have 1 human do the work of 20+ humans with the help of automation. If you start creating products based on having them be worked on by machines (cars etc) this increases the number drastically. Money is used to pay for services primarily, so once there is no services or need for them, money becomes obsolete, other then to differentiate cast levels (more money means you can own/purchase more things etc). Eventually I predict a digital currency that is used in most online/virtual games/stores/entertainments etc, as well as the real world. Money may still be useful/used in such a case, but primarily in a virtual world, not the real world. Work also will exist, but again, primarily in a virtual world, you can make money playing games and selling items, you can make money entertaining people virtually (already exists through things like twitch and camgirls etc), you can make money creating new digital content (this is going to be a big one) etc. Schools will also change to primarily be virtual/online I would imagine and focus heavily on things like programing skills etc (which eventually will be much easier/simple than even what we have now (Look back at assembly language/machine language, then Basic, then C+ etc, programming has become easier/more streamlined as we go). Imagine trying to make a modern game with current graphics while programming in Basic and plotting each graphical point lol). We are on the cusp of a different world, but I don't think I'll live long enough, and certainly won't see long enough, to see it (unless they make mechanical eyes for me or something.....it's possible I guess). It's.....actually horrible.....really really sad, that the world is like it is, with the technology we currently have. Everyone could already be living really amazing lives with the freedom to do what they wanted, to learn what they wanted, no medical worries (they could get sick, but health care would be available for anyone). We have the resources and the technology to make the world a utopia, while not increasing global warming, not destroying nature/wild life etc. We don't do it because it's not "profitable" for the rich and wealthy who not only can already do all those things, but......get the satisfaction of knowing most people can't. People still die of starvation around the world, people die of exposure, people die because of easily treated medical conditions (like my wife), people are stuffed into over crowded cages (prisons) etc. None of that is neccesary, none of that is unavoidable. That is the sadest thing about the human race, we could live in heaven, but instead, we make this existence hell for many of us, and hold out the illusion or promise of heaven to get most of us to work/be slaves, even when that isn't actually needed anymore. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LinkPizza 08/25/20 7:28:32 PM #101:	wolfy42 posted... We could already automate maybe 70% of all jobs Disagree wholeheartedly... Maybe like 30% realistically... wolfy42 posted... Think about most jobs and you can easily figure out a way to automate it, or have 1 human do the work of 20+ humans with the help of automation. Also disagree. Maybe 50%, and that's being generous... wolfy42 posted... Money is used to pay for services primarily, so once there is no services or need for them, money becomes obsolete, other then to differentiate cast levels (more money means you can own/purchase more things etc). Money is used for goods and service. So, as long as those exist, the need for money exist, as well. And those aren't going away... wolfy42 posted... We have the resources and the technology to make the world a utopia Probably a utopia for some... --- Official King of Kings Switch FC: 7216-4417-4511 Add Me because I'll probably add you. I'm probably the LinkPizza you'll see around. <cite>LinkPizza posted [p:943818721] in How has it... [t:78930749]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>We could already automate maybe 70% of all jobs</quote> Disagree wholeheartedly... Maybe like 30% realistically... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>Think about most jobs and you can easily figure out a way to automate it, or have 1 human do the work of 20+ humans with the help of automation.</quote> Also disagree. Maybe 50%, and that's being generous... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>Money is used to pay for services primarily, so once there is no services or need for them, money becomes obsolete, other then to differentiate cast levels (more money means you can own/purchase more things etc).</quote> Money is used for goods and service. So, as long as those exist, the need for money exist, as well. And those aren't going away... wolfy42 posted...</cite> <quote>We have the resources and the technology to make the world a utopia</quote> Probably a utopia for some...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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