Board 8 > King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) R1D33: Hades vs Janet (High)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Welcome to the King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) Simulated Character Battle Tournament!

The game is simple. The two* listed characters are placed in an (imaginary) location with a variety of (imaginary) environments, kind of like a picture in a child's schoolbook that describes different types of geological features. Within a ten mile radius, there is an (imaginary) urban downtown, exurbs, plains, snow-clad mountains at the edge, dry plains, etc. Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

To participate, just vote in bold for whichever character you believe will win. Giving reasoning is optional, but please be polite and read what others have said and carefully make your decision. I'll ping the nominators (they can opt out) to give arguments if they wish.

Results/Discussion: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78797189

TODAY'S PARTICIPANTS:
Hades (Kid Icarus)

The god of the Underworld as master of the dead, Hades, aside from expected abilities like being able to resurrect the undead and sheer strength, he is also apparently capable of making "his entire body [be] covered in missiles and laser turrets"

vs

Janet (The Good Place)

An AI caretaker, Janet knows everything on Earth, can make robot friends, and can teleport (including to a personal pocket Universe), but has an off switch hidden somewhere in the arena

@Shonen_Bat

FIGHT

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Janet is a sentient AI-like helper who comes bundled in with every Good Place neighborhood. There is a Janet in every neighborhood in the afterlife; this specific Janet is the one the show follows, who gets repeatedly rebooted and becomes closer to human than any other Janet.

Janet claims to know everything on Earth, from major events to the minutiae of people's lives. (It could be argued that she knows every fictional universe in this contest as a result, but I'm not sure I feel like going down that road.) She has gaps in her knowledge about the afterlife, but it is consistently shown that she is full of knowledge about Earth.

Janet also has the ability to instantly summon any object on Earth, ranging from the mundane to the spectacularly weird. We never see her use this power offensively, though there is nothing theoretically stopping her from doing so.

In addition, Janet can automatically retreat to her void, a formless place that exists outside space and time. She can do this at any time. She can also create other beings who are like her (she creates a "boyfriend" that functions in much the same way), as well as constructs of people who behave like normal people. This isn't perfect, however - the boyfriend in particular is very weird and acts like a defective Janet model. But this is something she can do.

Also, Janet states in the finale that she doesn't experience time the normal way. This is probably a result of the afterlife timeline moving in a non-linear fashion, but also she's been known to retreat to her void and come back seconds later, though a lot of time has passed for her.

Janet is tricky here because she's more of a conceptual fighter. She has a wide array of abilities but she never really uses them in direct combat. The only time we actually see Janet engaged in direct combat is when her powers have been removed due to being on Earth. She's able to easily overpower a group of demons (who look and act like humans) through basic hand-to-hand combat. When her powers briefly return, her attacks are amplified (she's able to easily toss them away). She also, while in the Bad Place, held a demon up by the neck and threw him into a wall so hard the wall cracked.

There are two canon ways to defeat Janet. One is to push on her nose and put a paper clip in a small hole near her left ear; this will turn her into a marble. The other, more interesting way, is that in every neighborhood, Janet has a kill switch located remotely somewhere. If you press it, it doesn't actually kill her - it knocks her out for a while, but then she reboots and grows in terms of sentience. This particular Janet has been rebooted around 800 times, making her far more self-aware than other Janets. I think a kill switch would spawn somewhere in the arena, though whether her opponent would know to target it specifically or not is up in the air. Also, whenever someone approaches the switch, Janet is programmed to plead for her life (even going so far as to show a picture of fake kids she claims to have), though as soon as you walk away, she will admit it's all an act. Here's a video of that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vo4Fdf7E0w

(nfun: this is my favorite match topic title we've had yet)

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Small house sized robot for scale

http://gfycat.com/DecimalScalyJerboa

aside from the strength you'd expect from that, Hades rules over the underworld, which is an actual place he can nip off to whenever he wants, like Janet's void here. He can call on the souls there to summon an army or replace parts of his body if they're destroyed, including his head. While in the underworld he's able to view anywhere in the normal world, even up to space.

Is Janet straight up unable to be destroyed normally or is she just tough enough that it's not usually worth trying? I can't see Hades having much trouble tearing through her and whatever robot army she brings in unless she just can't be taken out physically.

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Janet is a very cool/interesting fighter but she might just be outclassed here

suppose for the sake of argument she did know everything about the underworld and the minutia of Hades' life, what might she do with that?
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I guess if she knew that most of his powers came from souls she could teleport there and try to mess things up, but even if she has a way to do anything to souls there are a lot of them there, even if we only count human ones

going to the underworld is probably a bad idea for her anyways because Hades is omniscient there, he'll be on her in a flash

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So here's where I stand right now: suppose Janet can summon say, an H-bomb, or even an antimatter bomb, which is probably the most dangerous thing on our earth. Would that even be enough to take down Hades? The dude takes on a super powerful divine mech and it just crumbles to pieces trying to take him down. He actually cleanly outlasts it, even. It takes Pit, who's an extremely capable combatant, having the support of three powerful gods plus the intervention of a fourth one decapitating Hades for him for him to have a chance at taking him down. I'm...not seeing how Janet can kill him, or contain him at all, really, even if we assume GameFAQS Janet is fully in play. Someone convince me this isn't a godstomp, please?

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Hades

Just too tough.

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i dont think theres an antimatter bomb on our earth

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I'm not even sure every weapon on Earth is enough to take down Hades
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

So here's where I stand right now: suppose Janet can summon say, an H-bomb, or even an antimatter bomb, which is probably the most dangerous thing on our earth. Would that even be enough to take down Hades? The dude takes on a super powerful divine mech and it just crumbles to pieces trying to take him down. He actually cleanly outlasts it, even. It takes Pit, who's an extremely capable combatant, having the support of three powerful gods plus the intervention of a fourth one decapitating Hades for him for him to have a chance at taking him down. I'm...not seeing how Janet can kill him, or contain him at all, really, even if we assume GameFAQS Janet is fully in play. Someone convince me this isn't a godstomp, please?

And even then, it didn't actually permanently kill Hades!
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Hades
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Thanks for posting my info, NFUN.

Another thing to keep in mind with Janet is that she can not only summon any object, she can imbue them with properties, sort of like Maxwell from Scribblenauts. One would think, given her ability to navigate around space and time - and given that someone like Michael was capable of imbuing objects with properties greater than 100% - that Janet would presumably be able to do so too. Theoretically, if Janet knows how to defeat Hades from her knowledge of Earth, she could summon something to do it. (Like she could probably summon a weapon with holy properties strong enough to defeat Aku.) But this is all conjecture.

She's also very practical and wouldn't mind sacrificing the entire arena if it meant that she could defeat her opponent.

oh, imbuing is pretty neat. does Hades have a weakness to light/holy/divine stuff?

I'm imagining Janet now as basically "Sera except all her missiles are holy"

can she spam her summoning as much as she wants?
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Drakeryn posted...

can she spam her summoning as much as she wants?

When she left Earth and went back to the afterlife, all of the objects she tried to summon appeared over a ten-to-fifteen second interval, and there were a ton of them. I don't think there's any limit to how much she can summon.

I tried finding a link to the time we see Michael spin a roulette as a Janet beta test that randomly gives attributes to objects, and she summons the most ludicrous thing imaginable in an instant. It doesn't seem to be on Youtube. I think it involves a swordfish pierced by...something. Shoot, I can't remember. But it's very unconventional.

Found the clip. This is what the Random Object Generator gives her (note how specific some of these objects are):

She generates it in under a second:

That's wild

I'd say theoretically she could bring in a divine nuke airdropped on the back of a giant ceramic turtle, and that might incapacitate Hades if he isn't able to warp out in time.

He's from the underworld though, her knowledge on him will probably be spotty at best and not reliable enough to say she'd know to do this

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Assuming KI version is the same as all the other versions he can be trapped but not really destroyed most of the time. Im not sure an AI is gonna get the job done here especially one thats basically an assistant with theoretical fighting powers.

Hades

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Two things I haven't seen brought up yet about Janet that are extremely important for this fight:

1. There is a limit on Janet's power, albeit barely. I'm having trouble finding the exact example, but I remember there being an episode where drastically excessive use of her creation powers left her struggling and she eventually needed to team up with Derek to join powers. Then again, Derek was a being she created to begin with, so I dunno how this would affect the situation.
2. Janet can only really be defeated by marblization, as her self-destruct only brings her back as a more evolved version of herself. However, the marblization is so specific that the self-destruct seems like the much more obvious solution. We do see what happens when Derek (a Janet-like being) is rebooted 150 million times:

At this point, he becomes a basically immortal, omnipotent being that might not even be able to be marblized. So I think the question is, does Hades figure out how to marblize her before she reaches this point? Because if Janet reaches this point, she wins easy imo.

Even if she doesn't reach THAT point, the show does state that Janets gain more abilities the more times she's rebooted. The current Janet has been rebooted a little over 800 times, and as such is the only Janet able to lie and create sentient beings.


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There's a few ways I see this going:

1. Janet and Hades fight endlessly until Janet becomes omnipotent
2. Janet and Hades fight endlessly until Janet is marbleized simply by coincidence

OR this isn't a fight at all because

1. Janet's omniscience allows her to just know exactly what it needed to defeat Hades, which she then summons and uses to defeat him instantly.
2. Hades simply asks Janet how to defeat her. Yeah, Janet CAN lie but she almost always tells the truth and is usually compulsively helpful unless she has specific reason not to. It's an unlikely strategy but it COULD work.

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So Janet does have some kind of "Ganon can only be killed by the master sword" business going on? Bleh.

I don't buy her knowing everything about someone like Hades unless we're going with Gamefaqs Janet who knows everything about the entire multiverse, but if we're taking it there Hades is meta aware enough that he probably watched her show before the match and already knows the marble thing

we shouldn't take it there <_<

Hades loves to hear himself talk enough that I definitely see him asking how he can beat Janet at some point, even rhetorically, making her spill the beans I guess

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Johnbobb posted...

There's a few ways I see this going:

1. Janet and Hades fight endlessly until Janet becomes omnipotent
2. Janet and Hades fight endlessly until Janet is marbleized simply by coincidence
OR this isn't a fight at all because
1. Janet's omniscience allows her to just know exactly what it needed to defeat Hades, which she then summons and uses to defeat him instantly.
2. Hades simply asks Janet how to defeat her. Yeah, Janet CAN lie but she almost always tells the truth and is usually compulsively helpful unless she has specific reason not to. It's an unlikely strategy but it COULD work.

How long is it between her button being pushed and her reboot? IIRC the only time we see it in the actual show is in the first season: she gets "killed," then there's enough time for Michael to gather everyone and hold a funeral, then she comes back to "life." That's an unspecified amount of time, maybe 15 minutes at least? If she's incapacitated for a significant amount of time, I'd be inclined to call that a win.

Also, when Janet comes back the first time she has to re-learn everything again, which is a time-consuming process. I don't remember if she has to do that after each subsequent reboot or not.

From what I know about Hades, he likes to talk a lot (like basically everyone in Kid Icarus Uprising), so the "strategy" of accidentally getting Janet to reveal her weakness is likelier than it seems. Janet's primary function is a helper, and she's always forthcoming with information.

Also, I would assume Janet could be defeated by sufficient force. The trick would be pinning her down, since she can instantly teleport anywhere, including to her void. I don't recall Janet having a firm durability showing in the show. If Hades got in a good attack I could see him knocking her out.

Hades

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Hades

Janet is an interesting fighter though, and this topic made me want to watch the show she's from

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Reposting because I accidentally voted for the wrong character oops

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It's a great show. Incredibly unique and heartfelt. Not at all focused on combat though.

That said:

undefined posted...

Hades simply asks Janet how to defeat her. Yeah, Janet CAN lie but she almost always tells the truth and is usually compulsively helpful unless she has specific reason not to. It's an unlikely strategy but it COULD work.

This strikes me as probably the likeliest scenario, for reasons I stated above.

Hades.