Current Events > Trans woman required to identify as male by Immigration Canada: 'it was agony'

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://globalnews.ca/news/7165883/transgender-refugee-immigration-canada/

After arriving in Toronto Chen made a refugee claim and was then told by Canadian immigration officials she must be identified as male on her refugee protection claimant document, her only valid piece of identification in Canada.

According to government policy, all information on an asylum seekers immigration documents must reflect what is indicated on their foreign passport.

This is true even in cases such as Chens, where a person receives hormone therapy, has undergone sex reassignment surgery, and where their lived gender no longer conforms with the sex they were assigned at birth.

ince coming to Canada, Chen has felt isolated and dreads leaving her apartment because she might be asked to show her ID that says shes a man, essentially outing her as a trans woman.

She also said being misgendered by the Canadian government makes her feel less valued than other people.
Im so afraid to live as a woman here, she said.

---

Good lord.

That is pretty fucking awful, honestly. Is there anything she can do about the ID situation?
---

I wonder if this originates from a policy preventing men from saying they're women to get through asylum quotas or something or if it was just full blown super transphobia

---

Ugh. It'll take a pretty long time before she can fix that

---

I keep asking, and never get a satisfactory answer...

Why are sex and gender legal concepts at all?

---

Medussa posted...

I keep asking, and never get a satisfactory answer...

Why are sex and gender legal concepts at all?

Sex, imo, makes sense. Gender, on the other hand, is bullshit science invented by a horrible man.
---

Medussa posted...

I keep asking, and never get a satisfactory answer...

Why are sex and gender legal concepts at all?

You never get a satisfactory answer because the only answer that would satisfy you is something that would support your "well meaning" transphobic opinions

---

Well I'm not telling him.

---

DarkChozoGhost posted...

You never get a satisfactory answer because the only answer that would satisfy you is something that would support your "well meaning" transphobic opinions

you know I'm trans, right? Why does the government (and subsequently, everyone who checks my id) need to know whether my genitals are an innie or an outie? checking my id has never required me to drop my pants or lift my skirt. it's my face that's getting compared to the picture on the card.

---

Medussa, noted transphobe.

---

I made an assumption based on the usual type of people that ask that question

---

Doe posted...

I wonder if this originates from a policy preventing men from saying they're women to get through asylum quotas or something or if it was just full blown super transphobia

Probably quotas, which are also bad anyway.

Slayer_22 posted...

Sex, imo, makes sense. Gender, on the other hand, is bullshit science invented by a horrible man.

i'm an advocate for trans' rights, but i also agree john money is legit scum.

---

Requiring initial paperwork to be filled out matching that of the place you're immigrating from is fine, but it shouldn't be any kind of arduous process to then update things after that initial stuff.

I mean they are a refugee. Just deal with the system now And figure it out later. Not a big deal. You're obviously fleeing so just get safe.

---

Medussa posted...

I keep asking, and never get a satisfactory answer...

Why are sex and gender legal concepts at all?

Because way back when only one was an option. And then when both sexes got the ability to y'know, have rights and such they stayed there to prevent discrimination.

This honestly just sounds like a silly technicality that should be very easy to fix. Especially since Chen says she's in Canada because she was afraid of being persecuted for her gender, so you would think China would be unwilling to give her a passport with her correct gender identity.

I bet this will be blamed on like, one a**hole immigration official and they'll fix this for her no problem.

Medussa posted...

I keep asking, and never get a satisfactory answer...

Why are sex and gender legal concepts at all?

You dont forsee problems if men and women are held in the same prisons?

Atralis posted...

You dont forsee problems if men and women are held in the same prisons?

you believe the only way to prisoners safe and secure is based on the F or M (or X) on their ID cards?

---

Medussa posted...

you believe the only way to prisoners safe and secure is based on the F or M (or X) on their ID cards?

Not the only way but a major way for sure. Women on average are half as strong as men and the vast majority of men are sexually attracted to women.

Canada is Alt Right?

I was not expecting that. TIL.

---

Medussa posted...

you believe the only way to prisoners safe and secure is based on the F or M (or X) on their ID cards?

I'm curious how you think the prison/jail situation should be handled. Rape is a very real and undeniable thing in prison/jail. All options seems pretty dangerous to me. There's risk in putting a trans woman in a female prison( and there's risk putting them in a male prison. And there's also a risk putting a trans man in a male prison. Putting a trans man in a female prison is probably the least dangerous of options. Still, what's the answer? Should all trans people just be in solitary?

i think you guys are missing the term "legal" in my original question. I'm not advocating we lose sex or gender as informational categories.

let me counter with a hypothetical:

A 35 year old trans woman is convicted and will spend a few years in prison. she has been on hormone therapy her entire adult life, and had genital surgery in her late 20s. But, for whatever reasons, she never updated her legal paperwork. How do think her prison stay should go?

---

Seems likely it has to match for the same reasons DoB and name have to match

It is really unfortunate, and hopefully something that can be corrected after initial processing, but i think assigning malice to the bureaucracy is just looking for a reason to be outraged

---

Slayer_22 posted...

Sex, imo, makes sense. Gender, on the other hand, is bullshit science invented by a horrible man.

Sex and gender mean the same thing. They have literally been used interchangeably since as far back as Ancient Greece. Its not until the mid 20th century give or take that people started using gender more since sex started to mean less about gender and more often referred to fucking. Then it wasn't until the last five or so years that a very small minority of people started pushing the concept that sex and gender are two separate things. The majority of people still consider them the same and use them as such.

---

Doe posted...

I wonder if this originates from a policy preventing men from saying they're women to get through asylum quotas or something or if it was just full blown super transphobia

Does that even happen?

---

Medussa posted...

How do think her prison stay should go?

If you can't do the time, then don't commit the crime.



---

Since when do people have to start using legal identification for stuff?

---

Sex =/= Gender

They wanted to know whats their irrefutable objective Sex.

Its not different to having to notify your Date of Birth

Fortunately, Canada is more accepting of trans people than China. While I understand her concerns, she might find that people don't particularly worry or care.

---

Should we just go by penis/no penis? Would that make everyone happy lol

---

Heavy_D_Forever posted...

Should we just go by penis/no penis? Would that make everyone happy lol

Well for one thing, as long as bottom surgery cost isn't covered universally then you're gatekeeping people's gender based on economic class.

---

toyota posted...

Sex =/= Gender

They wanted to know whats their irrefutable objective Sex.

Its not different to having to notify your Date of Birth

I agree.

Sex is M or F. Gender can be anything. If we need to have IDs that need to define us, have sex AND gender identity. Biologically, there are differences which we need to know as well - think in a healthcare situation. A man cannot get cervical cancer, but a female to male can. A female cannot get prostate cancer, but a male to female can.

---

Sounds fair. Next

Gamerguymass posted...

Sex and gender mean the same thing. They have literally been used interchangeably since as far back as Ancient Greece. Its not until the mid 20th century give or take that people started using gender more since sex started to mean less about gender and more often referred to fucking. Then it wasn't until the last five or so years that a very small minority of people started pushing the concept that sex and gender are two separate things. The majority of people still consider them the same and use them as such.

Except Gender as a concept was invented in the 1950s by a scumbag named John Money who proceeded to use a child in depraved acts to try and prove his theories, which all ended in his suicide.

What the fuck are you talking about?
---

John Money believed in the "blank slate" -- that literally everything about a person was learned behavior. That's the complete opposite of gender identity. And his failure goes a long way toward proving that sex and gender are two different, and inherent, things.

---

pepper2012 posted...

the sex they were assigned

I don't even at this point

---

I have no opinion on this issue.

---

I feel horrible for the woman in the story. I'm glad she got taken in by Canada but definitely, this does create some major risks to her safety even in a country that supposedly is accepting of trans people. I've heard enough stories from friends, and just. It's not safe. Even if you pass 100%, if you get outed you're in danger. Maybe even more depending on who it is you're dealing with.

---

gunplagirl posted...

I feel horrible for the woman in the story. I'm glad she got taken in by Canada but definitely, this does create some major risks to her safety even in a country that supposedly is accepting of trans people. I've heard enough stories from friends, and just. It's not safe. Even if you pass 100%, if you get outed you're in danger. Maybe even more depending on who it is you're dealing with.

Canada is not the 'safe haven' for anyone who isn't part of the majority, despite what the government advertises. My college's librarian, who has 4 degrees, speaks 4 languages, and is working on a fifth, immigrated from India. She has had nothing but problems during the entire process and she is a very educated woman with a lot of 'spunk'. How are those who are not as educated supposed to figure it out?

---

Medussa posted...

John Money believed in the "blank slate" -- that literally everything about a person was learned behavior. That's the complete opposite of gender identity. And his failure goes a long way toward proving that sex and gender are two different, and inherent, things.

The dude invented the concept of gender, though. That one's sex isn't what they identify as. He came up with it. That's the bit you seem to not understand. A man who made children assume sexual positions just so he could make his crackpot theoriee work. Which didn't do shit.
---

no, he fucking didn't. that is complete an utter nonsense.

John Money's theory was that we can teach gender identity. that's the theory that he tested with David Reimer. And it's failure didn't prove that sex and gender are the same thing. it proved (or at least, started to suggest) that gender identity is just as biological and immutable as physical sex. It only took artificially (and incredibly unethically) creating a trans person to do it.

---

Slayer_22 posted...

Except Gender as a concept was invented in the 1950s by a scumbag named John Money who proceeded to use a child in depraved acts to try and prove his theories, which all ended in his suicide.

What the fuck are you talking about?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Gender has been around for thousands of years. The word sex and the word gender have literally been used to mean the exact same thing since before the start of the Roman Empire. They have been used interchangeably to mean the exact same thing in the English language specifically since the time of the Renaissance in the 1300s. I mean there are hundreds if not thousands of words in English alone that mean the exact same thing as another word or more even, so I really don't understand why a small minority of people are trying to basically "steal" the word gender and give it a defintion that it has never had before throughout its history.

---

What purpose does it serve on government identification anyway?
It's not like "M" or "F" is going to be checked and verified very often.

also complete bullshit.

gender was co-opted from it's linguistic meaning when prudes needed a euphemism for sex. they've only been synonyms for about 100-150 years. which makes the whole "you're changing the meaning of gender" argument even more amusingly hypocritical.

---

This is so awful. However as far as I'm aware, are you not able to change your gender relatively easily in Canada? Maybe the rules are different for refugees.

---

DevsBro posted...

I don't even at this point

You do realize when you're born the doctor has to look then record your gender right

---