Current Events > Fuck the haters, TLoU2 is the game of the generation.

(+) Yeah! (+)

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

We should have started as Abby and seen her life and play as her the first half of the game not knowing who her father was only that she is hunting his killer. Then when she finally reveals that she is hunting Joel the shock value and oh wow factor is preserved giving gamers a much better story as we saw things from her POV and got to know her.

Then we spend the other half of the game hunting her down as Ellie and actually have the player choose if Abby is killed or not.

This sounds really dumb, no offense

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

Assassins Creed 3 did this kind of twist extremely well with Haythem before you play as Connor.

I don't think Assassin's Creed 3 is an example of doing anything "extremely well" lol

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Doom_Art posted...

This sounds really dumb, no offense

Agree to disagree on this. This is how I'd improve the plot as well. I genuinely don't see how you think that story arc is dumb. It's actually a classic, multiple-POV storytelling technique. Idk if you're just being contrarian, but if you aren't, then we just clearly have different tastes.


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babbys first "grownup" game

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Eliza3 posted...

Agree to disagree on this. This is how I'd improve the plot as well. I genuinely don't see how you think that story arc is dumb. It's actually a classic, multiple-POV storytelling technique. Idk if you're just being contrarian, but if you aren't, then we just clearly have different tastes.

the point was to hate Abby's character until you got to her section, and even if you never got around to liking her, you'd at least understand her motivations leading to, and following her decisions.

framing the story in that way would change the focus of the story, and while it might not have been better/worse, what we ended up getting made revelations more impactful, IMO.

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MuayThai85 posted...

Beats RDR2 and God of War.

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GoW
Spiderman
RE2make
Doom 2016
Bloodborne

TLOU2 isn't even a top 10.

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Everybody has to be so extreme. To many, something is either THE GOAT!!!! or WORSE THAN CANCER!!!

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Most people did not ever give a shit about Abby nor her companions though, people have said they did not even want to play her game sections and some just sped through them to get back to Ellie.

People dont give two shits about understanding someone who killed w fan favorite character the way they did. Why do you think people still feel Ellie should have killed Abby ??

The way the story is presented does not make anyone give a shit about why or what Abbys motivations were after she killed that character.

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boxington posted...

the point was to hate Abby's character until you got to her section, and even if you never got around to liking her, you'd at least understand her motivations leading to, and following her decisions.

framing the story in that way would change the focus of the story, and while it might not have been better/worse, what we ended up getting made revelations more impactful, IMO.

Yea I get the shock factor. You're not explaining something to me that I don't already know. The problem is that this sort of story-telling is just not palatable to a lot of people. If the viewer doesn't eventually come to that point of caring about Abby or understanding/empathizing with her, whose fault is that? I imagine you'll say it's the fault of the viewer and that they don't "get it." People get it. They just don't like that sort of story. Subverting expectations is a risky narrative move. It's not always going to work with everyone. And this proves it.

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If they had done the story the way I presented a new narrative there would be a lot of conversation about being sympathetic to Abby NOT hating her as most do. Abby in how I rework the story is the way you get people to give a fuck about her, like her, and see a POV of the cycle of revenge is ugly a much deeper narrative that took less then 5 minutes to come up with.

TLOU 2 would be loved with a deeper and more complex narrative instead of the bullshit they gave.

Telling a story badly is how you get the hate TLOU 2 has, if they told the story a different way the hate would be non existent.

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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

If they had done the story the way I presented a new narrative there would be a lot of conversation about being sympathetic to Abby NOT hating her as most do. Abby in how I rework the story is the way you get people to give a fuck about her, like her, and see a POV of the cycle of revenge is ugly a much deeper narrative that took less then 5 minutes to come up with.

Having you meander around as someone whose motives you don't know for the first half of the game would've been a terrible storytelling decision


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Just beat TLOU2 last night. Overall I'd say it was a decent game but overhyped and a little disappointing. My elevator pitch review of it would be that TLOU is an ok game disguised with incredible production value & presentation.

I'd say the weakest part of the game is by far the gameplay. The stealth gameplay is really basic and got stale for me, and I was very disappointed with how bad the AI was (and AI is everything in a stealth game). As I mentioned before, the gameplay is hidden behind a lot of presentation (graphics, gore, enemies acting like they're strategizing with each other, etc) but since the game is like 100,000 hours long, at a certain point the presentation started to wear off.

What I actually ended up liking the best was when you'd be in kind of an open area looting stores or whatever, never knowing if there was going to be a zombie or something in a dark room. I think I would have liked the game more if this was the main focus over battles arenas with humans or infected.

Story-wise I once again felt it was good but not great. I really enjoyed the main theme of the game and thought the idea of two girls having parallel narratives where they're coming to terms with their grief.

while i thought abby and ellie were interesting characters, i can't say i liked any of the other ones, they all felt pretty flat like they existed only to be plot devices for abby/ellie. i disliked how much the story dragged - i got what they were going for with the abby plotline for example but so much of it felt like an unfocused sidequest - and i hated everything about the seraphites, they were cheesy and rarely made sense. at times the story felt unfocused and pretty ham fisted at points (look, we get it, lev and abby is supposed to mirror joel and ellie).

overall not a bad game, i am glad I paid $60 for it and will probably replay the combat encounters again once i've had time away from the game (because using the shotgun and molotovs is too fun). but i cant really understand how people are saying this is a 10/10 game unless they are total non-gamers and just rate games based on their production value.


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Doom_Art posted...

Having you meander around as someone whose motives you don't know for the first half of the game would've been a terrible storytelling decision

Having her being out for revenge against her fathers killer, getting to know her allies, and then meeting up with TLOU 1 characters is not compelling ?? Wow cuckman really does have shills defending the shitty narrative.

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Bloodborne
Sekiro Shadows Die Twice
Breath of the Wild
NieR Automata
Resident Evil 2 Remake


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Eliza3 posted...

Yea I get the shock factor. You're not explaining something to me that I don't already know. The problem is that this sort of story-telling is just not palatable to a lot of people. If the viewer doesn't eventually come to that point of caring about Abby or understanding/empathizing with her, whose fault is that? I imagine you'll say it's the fault of the viewer and that they don't "get it." People get it. They just don't like that sort of story. Subverting expectations is a risky narrative move. It's not always going to work with everyone. And this proves it.

obviously not everyone is going to like how the story is presented, what happens in the story, etc., and that's fine; even with "conventional" storytelling, some things are harder to sell than others.

but just because the way a story is told might turn some people off, it doesn't invalidate its structure, it just means that it's less effective for some people.

and for a lot of people, they weren't going to like Abby despite how the story was told.

I imagine you'll say it's the fault of the viewer and that they don't "get it."

it's weird when people create imaginary arguments.


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i havent and wont be playing last of us 2 but either god of war 4 or red dead 2 is the game of our generation, crazy they only came out months apart

@boxington
Wow you could not be more wrong, there was a way to make people love Abby but the story has to be told in a way to garner sympathy for her, to get people to root for her going for revenge.

This whole subverting expectations narrative is a failure because it is a gimmick.

Most gamers would never have rooted for a Templar in the AC series yet Haytham and Shay in AC 3, and AC Rogue clearly proved with a good narrative and intelligent story telling yes they fucking will.

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Im about halfway through Abbys part and I honestly dont feel like playing anymore. The story isnt impactful because the gameplay cheapens it. I could get through Ellies part because it had at least one interesting character, but there is nothing in Abbys section that makes me want to continue looting and killing for another 10 hours. Im burned out.

would those people who liked Haytham in AC3 have done so if *TLoU2 spoilers* Haytham came in and killed a fan favorite like Ezio with something like a golf club in revenge

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boxington posted...

it's weird when people create imaginary arguments.

This is rich when you did the exact same thing:

but just because the way a story is told might turn some people off, it doesn't invalidate its structure

I didn't say this. ^

it just means that it's less effective for some people.

This is exactly what I'm saying, but you're really minimizing how badly it can fall flat on its face.

and for a lot of people, they weren't going to like Abby despite how the story was told.

And using this as an excuse to dismiss legitimate criticism doesn't help the conversation.


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It's in my top 3 this gen. The presentation, graphics, animations, music, gameplay were all top notch.

I'm glad that they told a story that they wanted to tell. If it would have been The Adventures of Joel and Ellie II then I wouldn't have liked it as much. The pacing could have been better in some parts but overall I liked the direction that it took. The whole game was an exercise in catharsis for both Ellie and Abbie, maybe some of the players too lol

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Dorfmann_ posted...

Im about halfway through Abbys part and I honestly dont feel like playing anymore. The story isnt impactful because the gameplay cheapens it. I could get through Ellies part because it had at least one interesting character, but there is nothing in Abbys section that makes me want to continue looting and killing for another 10 hours. Im burned out.

Your just another example of why the way the story is told in TLOU 2 is a failure, Abby is a clear hate sink, and people dont want to play as her.

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boxington posted...

would those people who liked Haytham in AC3 have done so if *TLoU2 spoilers* Haytham came in and killed a fan favorite like Ezio with something like a golf club in revenge

Well seeing as how Shay is the one that killed fan favorite Adewale from AC 4 BF and he is STILL loved as a character my argument speaks for itself. So yes a character can kill a fan favorite and not be hated if it is done right.

@boxington

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Noah Caldwell sums it up better than I can - I wish I could find the exact time code. But basically you need to be all in on Ellie and her revenge, without further context or deeper introspection, just like she is. Playing as Abby earlier than you do would ruin that. Then, you play as Abby and youre all in on her even though you probably hate her. Its more challenging to the player emotionally, but ultimately I think that makes for a deeper, more rewarding story.

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

Your just another example of why the way the story is told in TLOU 2 is a failure, Abby is a clear hate sink, and people dont want to play as her.

I dont even hate her. Shes just not interesting and neither is anyone else in her story. Saving zebras and playing with dogs isnt enough to make me care about the characters.

Eliza3 posted...

I didn't say this. ^

I was referring to the part when you said that the story might not be "palatable" to the player, or them not emphasizing with her - maybe it's the case for a lot of players, but it also worked for a lot of players, as well.

Eliza3 posted...

This is exactly what I'm saying, but you're really minimizing how badly it can fall flat on its face.

how so?

Eliza3 posted...

And using this as an excuse to dismiss legitimate criticism doesn't help the conversation.

I wasn't dismissing any criticisms, I was just saying that Abby's character, what she represented, was going to be an issue for a lot of people because what it meant for Joel, who's a well loved character.

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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

Well seeing as how Shay is the one that killed fan favorite Adewale from AC 4 BF and he is STILL loved as a character my argument speaks for itself. So yes a character can kill a fan favorite and not be hated if it is done right.

@boxington

if you say so, but tbh, I don't know who Adwele or Shay are, so I can't comment on that.


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@boxington
Shay is the main character of AC Rogue, and Adewale was the quartermaster in AC 4 Black Flag, as well as the main character in the AC Freedom Cry dlc.


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boxington posted...

I was referring to the part when you said that the story might not be "palatable" to the player, or them not emphasizing with her - maybe it's the case for a lot of players, but it also worked for a lot of players, as well.

lol dude I know a lot of players like this game. I'm not denying that. And I literally said I get why people like it.

boxington posted...

how so?

Because in the end, all it did for many players was ring hollow, seem shallow & disjointed, and put players off. Btw I know many players liked the game. You don't need to repeat that. You gotta realize this is all subjective, friend.

boxington posted...

I wasn't dismissing any criticisms, I was just saying that Abby's character, what she represented, was going to be an issue for a lot of people because what it meant for Joel, who's a well loved character.

I know. I'm not one of those people though, and I don't think my posts imply that, so it's neither here nor there.

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Where my Darkest Dungeons homies at.
They're all at the brothel aren't they

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Death Stranding
Bloodstained Curse of the Moon
MGSV
Salt&Sanctuary
FF7R

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Just finished watching through since I don't have a PS4. I really liked this, and the way it was executed just made the tragedy of it all that much more powerful.

I don't understand why people point to this game and say Neil Druckmann hated Joel. The game really deepened the character and the relationship between him and Ellie; if you loved him in the first one, this just has more of what made him so relatable. I'm not ashamed to say I teared up during the flashback at the museum

Stalolin posted...

Noah Caldwell sums it up better than I can - I wish I could find the exact time code. But basically you need to be all in on Ellie and her revenge, without further context or deeper introspection, just like she is. Playing as Abby earlier than you do would ruin that. Then, you play as Abby and youre all in on her even though you probably hate her. Its more challenging to the player emotionally, but ultimately I think that makes for a deeper, more rewarding story.

Exactly. It's a much more original take and I think to structure it more conventionally you would definitely miss some of the beats and lessen the impact.

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Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

see also: Trevor from GTAV killing Johnny from TLAD, which personally I didnt like but wasnt hated by most people

They did Johnny wrong but he was so pathetic in GTA V and not the same person as he was in TL&D since he turned to using drugs and was stupid enough to take Ashley back.

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Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

see also: Trevor from GTAV killing Johnny from TLAD, which personally I didnt like but wasnt hated by most people

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

They did Johnny wrong but he was so pathetic in GTA V and not the same person as he was in TL&D since he turned to using drugs and was stupid enough to take Ashley back.

They did him and The Lost wrong. Way to kick 'em while they're down Rockstar. It didn't have to be them for Trevor's story anyway.

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Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

see also: Trevor from GTAV killing Johnny from TLAD, which personally I didnt like but wasnt hated by most people

Hot take: Trevor is one of the most annoying and unlikable protagonists in any video game ever

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MuayThai85 posted...

Or maybe people (the haters) can't accept that they have horrible taste or hate the game simply for "having an sjw agenda".

Nah I just dont praise whats on its best day a 7/10 title as a game of the generation

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Well I never liked Trevor at all in GTA V and his first mission showed how much of a piece of shit he was.

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