Current Events > Was the MGS2 Character switch super controversial back in the day?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Or was there a lot of support for it?

I ask because of a certain game from this year. And Also Halo 2's switch

PowerOats posted...

Or was there a lot of support for it

People were super fucking butthurt about it when it happened.

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Did you just say "nerd"?!

I think it caught a lot of people by surprise and pissed off tons of fans. I was more shocked than pissed, plus the gameplay was really great. I still hate Raiden tho lol

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Very

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I went in knowing full well about Raiden, and as someone who really enjoyed MGS, I also really enjoyed MGS2 and what they did with Raiden's character.

but there was a big backlash, and Kojima tried to rectify things by making Raiden this "badass" cyborg ninja in MGS4, but it totally ruined his character, IMO.

at least Metal Gear Rising improved on things, and made his character fun again.

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A lot of people upset, but nowhere near as bad as TLOU2 and it didnt screw with peoples perception of the game.

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people hated raiden until mgs4
then they couldn't contain their raging ninjon

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Insanely hated.

And it totally got a bunch fans saying the game sucked as a result.

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JuanCarlos1 posted...

A lot of people upset, but nowhere near as bad as TLOU2 and it didnt screw with peoples perception of the game.

It also wasn't leaked ahead of time and the internet wasn't quite the hotbed of hyperbolic impotent rage that it is now. Ironically enough it was MGS2 that made me create an account on this site so I could ask a question on the game's board.

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I was stoked for multiple playable characters, and I liked how it played out that Plissken was supporting you the whole way. Idk it still felt like we were doing the mission together.

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The reaction was pretty bad. Comparable to a game that came out this year but the internet wasn't like it is today so it didn't have the same spread I guess but it had a similar impact.

MGS2 is now a beloved game across the fanbase though. Most people put it in their top 2.
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somebody pointed this out once and i still find it funny

everybody hated how effeminate/"womanly" raiden was, so kojima put him in heels and had him doused in what-totally-doesn't-just-look-like-cum all of the time in his next game and then people were suddenly able to overlook it and love him just cause he was a ninja

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Smashingpmkns posted...

The reaction was pretty bad. Comparable to a game that came out this year but the internet wasn't like it is today so it didn't have the same spread I guess but it had a similar impact.

MGS2 is now a beloved game across the fanbase though. Most people put it in their top 2.

Really? Out of the main 4 it's still my least favorite. I actually like 4 though and most people seem not to.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

Really? Out of the main 4 it's still my least favorite. I actually like 4 though and most people seem not to.

This.

3>4>1>2 for me, but I think 2 is phenomenal as well, so...there's really no going wrong in my book.

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I was reading some old gaming magazines lately and they were really ragging on Raiden. I remember some of the year-end contests giving him the equivalent of Razzies, lmao. The praise for MGS2 persisted beyond Raiden, though.

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Yeah, as others have said, it was a pretty big deal in the worst way. Raiden wasn't even shown in ads leading up to the game's release. The swerve alone actually effected the reception of the entire game for a lot of players and critics for several years. It was also the first one to get SUPER weird with its story, which didn't help things.

If playing as someone else was revealed in some form ahead of time, it probably wouldn't have been as bad, or bad at all.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhJjbimL5E
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ScazarMeltex posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

The reaction was pretty bad. Comparable to a game that came out this year but the internet wasn't like it is today so it didn't have the same spread I guess but it had a similar impact.

MGS2 is now a beloved game across the fanbase though. Most people put it in their top 2.

Really? Out of the main 4 it's still my least favorite. I actually like 4 though and most people seem not to.

Most people, yeah. Go to any of the MGS sites or even the reddit board and the #1 favorite usually goes back and forth between 3 and 2. I personally think V had the best gameplay while 2 had the best story. 3 is overall my favorite though I think.
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Reminder that MSG2 was given a shoutout by the Smithsonian Museums as the first post-modern video game

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I tend go with 3>1>4>2. I haven't played 5 because of the complaints about the story being essentially unfinished.

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ohhhhh you betcha

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I remember a lot of people complaining about it in high school. I didn't play it myself until college though (only had a PS1 at that time).

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Smashingpmkns posted...

Most people put it in their top 2.

it was my favorite of the series for years. even now, it remains in second place only to the first MGS.

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EverDownward posted...

it was my favorite of the series for years. even now, it remains in second place only to the first MGS.

If nothing else it's wild that Kojima was able to predict the proliferation of garbage information creating a post fact world back in 2002.

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It's completely supported in the narrative (eventually) but it's a hard pill to swallow. Back then AAA sequels could afford to be gutsy.

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JuanCarlos1 posted...

A lot of people upset, but nowhere near as bad as TLOU2 and it didnt screw with peoples perception of the game.

This.

Kojima did it to make Snake appear more impressive as a character and to increase the scale of the conflict to more than just him, and I think he absolutely nailed it on both. Back then however there was less internet warnings for this type of stuff, so a lot of people got burnt, especially when all the gameplay footage at the time was almost all of the Tanker chapter.

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It was a big thing, but to me I was the exact right age to just go with it. I was 12/13 when MGS2 came out, so I was just old enough to have my mind blown by the meta narrative and it's themes and just young enough to not realize how fucking stupid MGS2's story is.

Also, it was probably my most hyped game of all time. I played the MGS2 over and over and over, and one of the OPM discs had the MGS2 trailer which I must have watched 1000 times. I loved every second of MGS2. It still imo the 2nd best game in the series in terms of pure gameplay, behind MGSV.

I was super disappointed by the change, and I know a lot of others were. I went into the game with no idea Raiden was a thing though, and was just looking forward to playing as Snake. By the time I got to the end I actually liked Raiden. And after looking up Kojima's explanation on why he made the change, I came to fully accept it.

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I think MGSV's was definitely purposeful but the method of delivery Kojima used for the story really held it back.
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Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

A lot of people absolutely hated it, but many came around to it after the initial kneejerk because they saw the purpose it was trying to serve. Plenty still hate it to this day though.

TLOU2s will not be received as warmly in the years to come because it wasnt as purposeful, same with MGSVs twist that often gets shielded with the b-but people hated MGS2 defense.

The problem with the MGSV twist is the fact that Kojima himself did it once before, like dude lmao

ModLogic posted...

people hated raiden until mgs4
then they couldn't contain their raging ninjon

https://youtu.be/XN9epsyOaj4

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Smashingpmkns posted...

I think MGSV's was definitely purposeful but the method of delivery Kojima used for the story really held it back.

If we got dlc that was the final section of Metal Gear 2 from Venoms perspective I think people woulda ate up the plot regardless of how they felt about V

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SolidShadow3 posted...

I was super disappointed by the change, and I know a lot of others were. I went into the game with no idea Raiden was a thing though, and was just looking forward to playing as Snake. By the time I got to the end I actually liked Raiden. And after looking up Kojima's explanation on why he made the change, I came to fully accept it.

That's kind of how my feelings evolved on it. I don't particularly care for the game in comparison to others in the series but that's just because I find the first and third games to be more enjoyable with a better story. I think what Kojima did in 2 was brilliant and the meta plot extremely prescient, I just don't find it fun to play.

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People were still losing their minds when I joined this site in 06.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

I tend go with 3>1>4>2. I haven't played 5 because of the complaints about the story being essentially unfinished.

Best gameplay in the franchise though...even if there is absolutely no reason to ever use leathal weapons

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ZeroX91 posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

I think MGSV's was definitely purposeful but the method of delivery Kojima used for the story really held it back.

If we got dlc that was the final section of Metal Gear 2 from Venoms perspective I think people woulda ate up the plot regardless of how they felt about V

I think for the sheer amount of extra content, yeah. Add a segment from the original MG after the credits that would have been sick.

But story wise i feel the twist fit the overall theme of the game. Revenge. Or really that revenge is bad. You're spending the whole game enacting revenge against Skullface, building up an army you have to inevitably kill off yourself that could have been saved if you never committed to this. Even Skullface's end being unsatisfying, leaving the player feeling cheated fits. Then you realize the revenge you became a 'demon' for isn't even yours. makes for a hell of a narrative imo if it were presented in longer cutscenes.
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ModLogic posted...

people hated raiden until mgs4
then they couldn't contain their raging ninjon

i still hated raiden in mgs4 because it was so obvious kojima was fighting against the backlash and trying to make raiden the most le epic robot ninja and i didnt fall for his tricks
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Well I didnt play the series until 07 but even back then I thought "who the fuck us this guy? Wheres snake!?!" Dont know how it was recieved back at launch.

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Yes it was. I didn't even follow MGS back then and I knew about it. The backlash was bad to the point that Kojima basically made Big Boss into Solid Snake in his prequel game lol. A lot of it was also the perception that Raiden was lame compared to Solid Snake because of how he looked. He wasn't a gritty badass. He spends a large chunk of the game with relationship drama.

Halo 2 was less so. There was some anger but the ending was more controversial overall so that's what got remembered.

Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

A lot of people absolutely hated it, but many came around to it after the initial kneejerk because they saw the purpose it was trying to serve. Plenty still hate it to this day though.

TLOU2s will not be received as warmly in the years to come because it wasnt as purposeful, same with MGSVs twist that often gets shielded with the b-but people hated MGS2 defense.

The character switch has a purpose in TLOU2.

*spoilers for both*
Raiden was a metacommentary on misinformation in the modern age
Abby is about humanizing an opposing force that you would typically hate
Both are initially hated due to people expecting to play as their fan favorite character. As time goes on people will get over it.

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Smashingpmkns posted...

I think for the sheer amount of extra content, yeah. Add a segment from the original MG after the credits that would have been sick.

But story wise i feel the twist fit the overall theme of the game. Revenge. Or really that revenge is bad. You're spending the whole game enacting revenge against Skullface, building up an army you have to inevitably kill off yourself that could have been saved if you never committed to this. Even Skullface's end being unsatisfying, leaving the player feeling cheated fits. Then you realize the revenge you became a 'demon' for isn't even yours. makes for a hell of a narrative imo if it were presented in longer cutscenes.

I mean if you've played the games you know the lore after the whole punching the mirror scene (and some casettes) you know where his endpoint is. the venom was just as loyal a nuctcase as Miller he takes his deathsentence mission Could have used more fleshing out i really dont think the cut chapter (was it a chapter or just a mission and cassette?) Would have added much but if you let people see thing they go yay, you let em do thing and they praise you even if it wasnt that great.

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Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

Thats what what one of the the general themes of MGS2 was about, not what Raiden replacing Snake was about. Imagine speaking so authoritatively about something youre wrong about.

The people who hate Abby now will hate her in 19 years.

One of. As was the one I listed. I didn't expect to need to write a total thesis. I'm talking solely about the marketing reasons behind them.

But yes maybe I'm overestimating todays audience compared to the ones 20 years ago. People eventually grew up or moved on from their tantrums over stuff like Raiden, Halo 2, Windwaker etc. and eventually accepted them for what they wanted to do and be. Maybe people today are no longer able to do that.

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PowerOats posted...

Or was there a lot of support for it?

I ask because of a certain game from this year. And Also Halo 2's switch

Halo 2's switch wasn't really a switch though.
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Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

TLOU2 however continues a trend of being a subpar gameplay experience only there to prop up a story, and it doesnt even have the grace to make the story good.

TLoU2 has both great gameplay and a great story, though.

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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

Halo 2's switch wasn't really a switch though.

It basically was.

The game was marketed as fighting on Earth against the Covenant. No sign of The Arbiter at all. He gets both the opening cutscene and the final level. The game is barely on Earth. It did let a lot of people down at the time.

It did alternate between them so it's different to MGS2 though.

Funnily enough Halo 5 ended up doing something similar. They were open about it this time. But it was still a surprise just how little Master Chief was in the game compared to Locke. Then they just squandered the potential of any interesting dynamics between those two characters anyway so it all felt pointless.

Copy_X_Mk_ll posted...

The difference here being that Halo 2 was always a good game that was a lot of fun. MGS2 continues to gain relevance by the year and was still fun to play despite the interruptions. Wind Waker was great from the start and the only people who were ever upset with it were tosspots who didnt think it looked mature enough. TLOU2 however continues a trend of being a subpar gameplay experience only there to prop up a story, and it doesnt even have the grace to make the story good.

In your opinion. I think the gameplay in TLOU2 is easily Naughty Dog's best and they're an acclaimed studio. If you aren't a fan of them in general I don't know why you care at all.

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