Current Events > Lightsaber fighting is dumb

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nobody ever minimizes their profile (rule #1 of literally any fight ever), characters never try to hit each other (you know, the fucking goal of swordfighting) and instead try to hit each others' light sabers, even when they do clash blades, and they don't ever try to capitalize on that if they're on the inside and riposte and hit (and kill) the other person. Most lightsaber duels should end in, like, 30 seconds max, and end with one, if not both, of the combatants dead. Lightsaber blades are canonically weightless, so why do they handle them with 2 hands and leave one side of their body completely open? If the blades are weightless, why are they as short as they are? You could crank it up to like 20 feet and your opponent would have no chance of ever hitting you. It's not like longer blades can't be made, as Kylo Ren's lightsaber is notably longer than almost every other one. If it's a bit bulkier, that's a small price to pay for an insane amount of range. Why don't Jedi have gloves that have light saber beams on the palms so they can hand-parry the opponent and leave them wide open to being hit? Why don't they bait a clash from an opponent, switch off the blade so the opponent swings wildly at nothing, then immediately turn it on and slice right through them?

Before you say that Star Wars is fantasy and thus our conventional wisdom doesn't apply, that's nonsense. They're still fighting with one-handed swords, they're not fighting with, like, gunblades or something. Most lightsaber battles in the OT pretend like they're actually trying to resemble actual swordfighting and I just can't take it seriously, even when the movie clearly wants me to. Revenge of the Sith's lightsaber battles don't even pretend like they're trying to resemble any real-world sword fighting and they're probably my favorite for that very reason. They still don't make sense if you scrutinize them with Star Wars rules (why don't they force pull their opponent towards them for an easy kill instead of pushing each other away?), but it's far less bullshit compared to the OT and to a lesser extent the ST.

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I think trained magic space ninjas know a little bit more about light saber dueling than you tc.
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this guy would bring some goddamn balance to the force

Yeah, and what's with them deflecting lasers. Are the lasers slower than bullets? Why even use lasers? Just machine gun Jedis to death.

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https://youtu.be/gvW4touytkc

Educate yoself

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ITT: The Force doesn't exist in Star Wars.

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Garioshi posted...

Lightsaber blades are canonically weightless

Not entirely true. While they don't succumb to gravitational force, they exert a pull by virtue of the energy that forms the blade that can be difficult to control. Think of it like wielding a stick that was constantly vibrating.

But you're right in that the prequel battles are a mess of foppish showmanship rather than actual dueling.

My favorite lightsaber battle in the entire canon is Kenobi and Maul's final duel.

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Probably because they want to keep the movies PG-13. People wielding light sabers should be going for dismemberment and decapitation.

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They're Space Wizards, they need not explain anything to the likes of you!

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I've not watched the prequels or the sequels, but do they ever use the Force in cool ways in lightsaber fights?

Stuff like this:
https://i.imgur.com/iWf6XP8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3BsSgzW.jpg

https://imgur.com/gallery/rXss2

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Is that true, I remember thinking the ot duels and pt fights being wildly different. I mean the ot is based on samurai movies right? I think the more modern movies are closer to wire fu

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Squall28 posted...

Yeah, and what's with them deflecting lasers. Are the lasers slower than bullets? Why even use lasers? Just machine gun Jedis to death.

Precognition + low rate of fire.

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mattymad posted...

The same argument stands for films with any sword fighting, tho.

Sword fights, 1 on 1, last about 20 seconds. It's pretty much a game of rock paper scissors. You'll get a tie here and there, but most likely someone's getting cut.

I've seen surprisingly little of it in the movies I've watched; Star Wars is the only one I can think of.

Squall28 posted...

Yeah, and what's with them deflecting lasers. Are the lasers slower than bullets? Why even use lasers? Just machine gun Jedis to death.

I mean, yeah? I can accept lasers being slower than light (even though that makes zero sense) and Jedi being able to deflect them. That being said, I wouldn't expect Luke to last a goddamn millisecond if he was actually facing down the First Order in person at the end of TLJ. The sheer number of lasers would be impossible to block.

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Squall28 posted...

Yeah, and what's with them deflecting lasers. Are the lasers slower than bullets? Why even use lasers? Just machine gun Jedis to death.

Sort of like why don't the folks in Star Trek arm their ships and themselves with Vulcan miniguns when fighting the Borg.

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Nah fuck that shit. There's a reason guns beat swords. Blasters>lightsaber. Only reason they can deflect them is because of rule of cool.

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I like to think most of the dueling is done mentally/with the force and just channeled through the swords

but the jumpy jumpy slashy slashy of the new movies ruined this

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PrideOfLion posted...

I always took the discrepancies between the OT and PT, and really movies in general, to be just different interpretations of the events
Like, Vader isn't actually that slow and clunky in-universe, the PT lightsaber fights aren't just dances, and Rey isn't 100x more powerful than the other Jedi -- it's just how they show us on screen what "happens"

A big part of it is the age of the actors involved at the time as well. But mostly the fact that fight choreography was still pretty shitty in the 70s. I mean you can see how it got much better in the next two movies. The fight scenes actors have to do themselves now would all have been done by stuntmen before the 80s.

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Damn fictional fights trying to look entertaining...

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Squall28 posted...

Nah fuck that shit. There's a reason guns beat swords. Blasters>lightsaber. Only reason they can deflect them is because of rule of cool.

I mean they can deflect lasers with their hands (or at least Vader can). The Saber is just an aid.

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KeeperOfShadows posted...

Damn fictional fights trying to look entertaining...

It's not like you have to be unrealistic to look entertaining. Ignore the gunfight here (although it is pretty entertaining on its own) and just look at the hand-to-hand combat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38CptLyZPy8
I know it's an animated movie, but the characters still had to be mocapped. There was still a ton of effort that had to be put into this choreography. You can have good choreography and not destroy my suspension of disbelief.

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Squall28 posted...

Nah fuck that shit. There's a reason guns beat swords. Blasters>lightsaber. Only reason they can deflect them is because of rule of cool.

Blasters definitely make more sense from a military standpoint than swords. Jedi cheat though. Also, light sabers are cooler.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Agreed on this applying to movie sword fights.

Your second point is only true if we're talking unarmored fighting (or light sabers I guess). Throw shields and armor into the mix and swordseffectiveness go down drastically. Especially if we're talking about plate.

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pegusus123456 posted...

I've not watched the prequels or the sequels, but do they ever use the Force in cool ways in lightsaber fights?

Stuff like this:
https://i.imgur.com/iWf6XP8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3BsSgzW.jpg

https://imgur.com/gallery/rXss2

These are freaking awesome and should totally be in some star wars movies.

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Squall28 posted...

Yeah, and what's with them deflecting lasers. Are the lasers slower than bullets? Why even use lasers? Just machine gun Jedis to death.

im pretty sure Jedi are kinda "super-human". So im guessing they just have super fast reflexes

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I4NRulez posted...

im pretty sure Jedi are kinda "super-human". So im guessing they just have super fast reflexes

Also the "seeing into the future" and "perception of where a blaster bolt is going to go based on where it's pointed" thing.

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kewldude475 posted...

This. Also, they can both use the force to predict each other's movements as well as enhance their own, so of course their swordfighting methods aren't gonna look conventional to people who can't do that.

It's basically the same thing as a basketball player who can't jump criticizing another player for dunking the ball instead of shooting a layup or midrange shot.

What, precognition means you should do things that can get you killed more easily? Even if I knew exactly what my opponent was going to do, I'm not going to put myself into a worse position. I would end the fight quicker.

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Garioshi posted...

What, precognition means you should do things that can get you killed more easily? Even if I knew exactly what my opponent was going to do, I'm not going to put myself into a worse position. I would end the fight quicker.

Problem is, the other guy has precognition too, and will counter your attempts to end the fight quicker. Hence why they just spend a lot of time swinging at each others swords.

I'd imagine a sword fight between force users is less about trying to overpower the opponent and more waiting for him to screw up and leave himself open.

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Garioshi posted...

Lightsaber blades are canonically weightless, so why do they handle them with 2 hands and leave one side of their body completely open? If the blades are weightless, why are they as short as they are? You could crank it up to like 20 feet

I'll field this one since it's literally the easiest one to answer: Power delivery. The blade requires energy to actually work, longer blade, more power. Plus, given that said blade is a magnetically contained flow of plasma, I imagine making it longer would make it harder for it to work.

Oh, and the blades also canonically generated gyroscopic effects, which makes swinging them around harder than using a broomstick.

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kewldude475 posted...

It's basically the same thing as a basketball player who can't jump criticizing another player for dunking the ball instead of shooting a layup or midrange shot.

This is a bad example because dunking doesn't actually benefit you in any way.

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Garioshi posted...

That being said, I wouldn't expect Luke to last a goddamn millisecond if he was actually facing down the First Order in person at the end of TLJ. The sheer number of lasers would be impossible to block.

Yoda: "So certain are you. Always with you it cannot be done. Hear you nothing that I say?"
Garoshi: "Dude, moving stones around is one thing, but this [points to the First Order] is totally different."
Yoda: "No! No different. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned."

Luke: [Luke holds-up his laser-sword] "My ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Everywhere. Here, between you, me, the ice, the rock, everywhere. Yes, even between this gate and the First Order."
Garoshi: "Dude, they have so many lasers... it's impossible for you to block them all."
Luke: [ Every shot from the First Order is stopped. ]
Garoshi: "I don't... I don't believe it!"
Luke: "That's why you failed to understand the Force."

Garoshi: What are you trying to tell me? That Jedi can stop all lasers?
andri_g: No, Garoshi. I'm trying to tell you that when a Jedi truly becomes one with the Force they don't have to. ;P

Force-users bodies are a conduit for the Force. Used lightly, one side gives users unusual health and longevity. Used heavily, one side consumes the user and withers their body.
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lilORANG posted...

I think trained magic space ninjas know a little bit more about light saber dueling than you tc.

lol

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He only has a single lightsaber. No matter how good his force powers are, his lightsaber can't be in two places at once. By the pidgeonhole principle, a fuckton of lasers are going to hit him and kill him.

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How about laser guns... how do you even shoot a ball of laser, shouldn't it just bee a big beam like the Death Star?

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The fights are choreographed to look cool. Don't read any more in to it than that.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caIkq6MvfSE

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Garioshi posted...

Why don't they bait a clash from an opponent, switch off the blade so the opponent swings wildly at nothing, then immediately turn it on and slice right through them?

Lightsabers take time to de-activate and re-activate so all you'd do is disarm yourself for a second.

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IHeartRadiation posted...

Lightsabers take time to de-activate and re-activate so all you'd do is disarm yourself for a second.

Your opponent isn't swinging at you, though, because every Jedi and Sith is a moron. They're swinging at your blade. They miss and now they're off balance, allowing you to kill them. You don't need to be armed because they're not attacking you.

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Why has nobody addressed the 78 minute break down video i posted?

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Jabodie posted...

Why has nobody addressed the 78 minute break down video i posted?

Jabodie posted...

78 minute

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqIb3bBdiwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpdTooRUbv4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irvU09MM-l4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibTIx-0euWQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvW4touytkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2EtZmsEjl8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyzwBWsqqw8

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Jedi are trained to deflect the average amount of blaster fire almost automatically thanks to the force. Of course, as Order 66 showed its still very possible to be overwhelmed anyway.

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Garioshi posted...

It's not like you have to be unrealistic to look entertaining. Ignore the gunfight here (although it is pretty entertaining on its own) and just look at the hand-to-hand combat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38CptLyZPy8
I know it's an animated movie, but the characters still had to be mocapped. There was still a ton of effort that had to be put into this choreography. You can have good choreography and not destroy my suspension of disbelief.

Equilibrium still did the Gun Kata aspect better.

The whole shooting each other and missing part makes the hand to hand combat look silly.


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Garioshi posted...

Kylo Ren's lightsaber is notably longer than almost every other one

Yeah its dumb. But it's an action movie. Samurai movies differ because they really didn't focus on non-stop action. Usually the size up lasted longer than the actual duel.

A 10 minute lightsaber fight would give Star Wars fans a boner, a 10 second one would be seen as dumb or something.
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The strongest form would have to be one based off of Rapier / Fencing techniques with a variable blade length that the wield can extend or contract at will with the press of a button.

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Close this disgraceful topic now!!!

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audiences want flashy fights, not realistic ones

rodu_jr posted...

audiences want flashy fights, not realistic ones

Realistic Fights can still look good for the screen to some degree.

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If the droids were equipped with kinetic weapons, the separatists would have won the war.
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