Board 8 > The Last of Us 2 topic (ongoing spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

The interior of his house
That's why he never invites Ellie in

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But we saw the interior when she went in for the watch.

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Great_Paul posted...

But we saw the interior when she went in for the watch.

I just played that part last night, it looked pretty normal to me

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XIII_rocks posted...

The interior of his house
That's why he never invites Ellie in

Does Ellie live in Joel's garage? Or is she living in a garage of a different house?

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Great_Paul posted...

But we saw the interior when she went in for the watch.

Good point.

The interior of Tommy's house, then.

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

For people who have finished the game:

What do you think Joel traded for that coffee?

Plot armor
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LinkMarioSamus posted...

One of the YouTubers I follow hates TLOU2 and he avoided the plot leaks.

Then again his favorite game is the original so whatever?

My favorite game is the original, I avoided the leaks, and I think TLOU2 is fantastic in almost every way. So I don't think his favorite game being the first TLOU has anything to do with it.

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kevwaffles posted...

Plot armor

"Yeah, so, back in the day, I used to die a lot. And whenever that happened, it hurt, but then I'd wake up just fine a few minutes before I died. Figured, you know, here in New Jackson, probably ain't gonna need that anymore. So figured I'd hand it off to some travelers who could us it, get me a nice tin of coffee."

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That some jack ass made a clickbait rant on YouTube and then Tweeted about it?

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To be fair, Kotaku talked about it in an article.

https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/30/21307200/the-last-of-us-2-controversy-critics-press-naughty-dog-vice-review-leak-sony-ps4-playstation

The vibe around the game hasnt gotten much better since then. On June 12, Vice published its review of The Last of Us Part 2, in which critic Rob Zacny said that while the game had memorable moments that made for great spectacle, he was less taken with the story and characters. Nobody ever reconsiders their quest for vengeance, Zacny wrote. Everyone acts under a kind of vindictive compulsion that goes little remarked and unexamined. Zacny went on to describe the games message as complacent, full of oppressive bleakness and violence.
While the vast majority of reviews have lavished The Last of Us Part 2 with all sorts of praise, a handful of outlets Polygon included have been slightly more critical of the blockbuster game. According to Zacny, Vices review prompted a Sony representative to reach out on behalf of Naughty Dog.
They felt some of the conclusions I reached in my review were unfair and dismissed some meaningful changes or improvements, Zacny told Polygon over Twitter messages.

Now, to be fair, it does go on to say they were cordial/non-threatening about it, but it is happening.

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That happening and my previous point are not meant to be mutually exclusive.

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They also mentioned that this is common practice if developers read reviews and identify mistakes.

Like, if a review comes out for Kingdom Hearts 3 that says "I really didn't like the Little Mermaid world" then you'd have no problem with Square contacting them to say "there is no Little Mermaid world, dipshit".

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Well, fact checking is one thing. That is absolutely fair game.

I don't personally like the idea of trying to debate critics when it comes to something subjective, like their opinions/feelings on a story, though.

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"meaningful changes or improvements" strikes to me more as gameplay or design, as opposed to story

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Well, like

Zacny clarified that the exchange wasnt confrontational, but that it was nonetheless unusual, as the site doesnt typically have big publishers asking in an official capacity why a review reads the way it does. Such things can happen, of course, though often with smaller developers, or from publishers who have spotted a factual error in a piece that they want corrected.
I was happy to unpack a bit of my reasoning, however, and received a perfectly cordial message in response, Zacny said. Naughty Dogs PR team declined to comment on Polygons inquiry about its exchange with Vice.

If he was able to "unpack his reasoning," then it sounds like they took issue with something subjective. Which in this case it seems fine since he said it wasn't confrontational, but it's still not a great thing to happen.

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The original tweet is still, as you would expect, bad-faith bullshit designed to misrepresent the situation. Nobody here was trying to "convince them they were wrong".

I don't think it's a great thing to do, but I also don't think it's particularly bad to ask for clarity either. Misrepresenting it as an attempt to strong-arm the reviewer to change their mind is vile, and I honestly take more umbrage with the dishonest nature of the tweet because of how damaging it is to the discourse. Something happened, this isn't a fabrication, and even reported honestly ND wouldn't look great, so fucking report it honestly.

I don't understand* why people feel the need to lie and bullshit and gaslight and intentionally misrepresent situations like this to justify their view that the game isn't that great. It's so pathetic, so annoying, that people would rather spew this bullshit than discuss the game's flaws and virtues in good faith. I'm grateful that this board has largely steered clear of that.

(*Actually I totally do understand why they do this, but it still sucks)

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The worst people from both sides just don't want to let the game be and stand on its own legs.

People that want to hate it gaslight and misrepresent things. People on the other side try to reduce legitimate complaints to "You just don't like it because you're a bigot."

Assholes are assholes all around. It's best to just ignore them and stick to what's actually factually being reported, good or bad.

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ahem,
lol Ulti

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I'm not going to watch it but comparing Abbie/Ellie to Boss/Snake is a really bad comparison to make.

Team Magma/Team Aqua is an awful choice, and it'd be better.

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The Critical Drinker is at least entertaining, and hes generally positive about the game despite the points on how characters were written.

Someone other than me brings up The Critical Drinker.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Nobody ever reconsiders their quest for vengeance, Zacny wrote. Everyone acts under a kind of vindictive compulsion that goes little remarked and unexamined. Zacny went on to describe the games message as complacent, full of oppressive bleakness and violence.

This sounds like an incredibly unfair complaint about the game. Almost as if they didn't finish it. I'm sure Zacny did finish the game and genuinely felt that way, but seems like he missed the point if that's how he feels.

Honestly, most of the complaints about the game I've read have straight up missed the point of the game, or they sound like they wanted something that they didn't get. If that's dismissive of the complaints, then so be it. The more I think about the game, the more I think of how both Ellie and Abby were developed really beautifully in their own ways. I think of how I could understand their emotions and their actions just by seeing animations, how I could disagree with the action but sympathize with the reason all at the same time. It's a powerful story of loss and forgiveness moreso than it is a meditation on revenge. The violence feels like the backdrop, not the focus. The first game still stands as my GOAT, but this game had a lot to be praised.

Basically, after finishing, I can't agree with someone who thinks the characters never learned anything, never developed much at all, never did anything that made sense, and take issue with how some of the societal issues are handled. And in most cases it's hard for me to even understand those complaints given the person complaining played all the way through too.

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I heavily agree with this video made by Girlfriend Reviews. It almost describes my thoughts better than I could, except I was a lot more willing to forgive Abby because I knew Joel was not the good guy of the first game in any way except how he cared for Ellie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh5gzGs-63Y

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Triple post, I know, but quick appreciation for the first game: so awesome how they made a character who I knew was the bad guy (basically committed a massive crime against humanity), yet I still loved him for the exact reason that he was the bad guy. And there were numerous layers to his slaughter of the fireflies. It was selfish and selfless at the same time. It was the most loving action but also the most hateful.

I could almost say the exact same thing about Abby's revenge on Joel (so also quick appreciation for the second game), but I'll be honest, I like Joel more than Abby.

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Girlfriend Reviews on Last of Us II (spoilers, obviously):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh5gzGs-63Y

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Solioxrz362 posted...

I heavily agree with this video made by Girlfriend Reviews. It almost describes my thoughts better than I could, except I was a lot more willing to forgive Abby because I knew Joel was not the good guy of the first game in any way except how he cared for Ellie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh5gzGs-63Y

This is a very good video that makes a lot of good points about how the developers put a lot of thought into writing TLOU2. And it's very true, they did.

The problem is that, while it may be technically well written in a lot of ways (and even that's debatable on a lot of other issues, like the incredibly bad pacing with the flash backs and a lot of the 'haha gotcha' forced kick the dog moments, sometimes pretty literally- but most stories have stumbling blocks like this, so I don't consider this that grave of an issue), it falls flat on its face in execution in a lot of peoples eyes, including mine.

I did not sympathize at ALL with Abby. She is an absolutely awful excuse for a human being that I genuinely wanted dead even more after her part of the story than I did before. The whole story misses the mark when it misses an extremely key part of the puzzle like that. There's no catharsis from the story, and there's nothing left but bitter feelings toward the whole thing.

It sacrificed themes and characters people liked about the original to try to do something that was, while thought out, misguided maybe not quite from inception, but from the moment they decided to write it like they did.

Now I'm not saying its impossible to like or sympathize with Abby. But if you don't, there is very, very little left that is a redeeming quality of the story, and often times it damages what people enjoyed about the first. And THAT is the problem I have with the game.

I certainly agree that if you don't connect in any way to Abby, the game isn't going to land

But I also don't really get how you can't, even a little bit.

Some pacing issues and editing issues aside, I honestly don't get how you can play her entire section of the game and not develop at least some sympathy for her life

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The only real reason I've come across is that Abby tortures Joel. Which just seems super flimsy to me. Joel tortures people in the first game, we don't care. Ellie tortures Nora. We don't care. We connect with the motivations and reasons for why Joel and Ellie engage with certain behaviour, but just outright refuse to do so for Abby.

It's a very interesting disconnect for me, I legit can't think of any other reason for it being a "reason" then people just being sad that Joel died. It's a post apocalyptic setting, people get murdered in all sorts of awful ways all the time, and both of our beloved main characters engage in torture that is at least in the same ballpark as what Abby did.

Hell, you even have a topic on the main board about most pleasing death and 2nd place is Nora.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/202466-the-last-of-us-part-ii/78805929

Why is it Nora? Why is she so hated, what did she do? I can only imagine Nora is high up because of how she is killed, because she has the anger taken out in her in the way that we wanted. Which is extremely interesting from a thematic standpoint of in/out group, as we are largely happy and okay with what Ellie does because we understand it, but even after understanding WHY Abby does what she does, we can't develop any sort of connection or sympathy for her

I just don't understand how that works for people

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See, and I'd disagree. It does exactly what it wants to do. It wants you to dislike her. It wants to give you a single piece of her story and have you vilify her because of it.

It wants you to play as Ellie next and move though her part of the story so that when you get to Abby, there are actual stakes at play with her part of the story.

That's the crux of the game. The entire structure is purposeful. It's made the way it is made to elicit feelings of anger when you play as Abby. You are supposed to not want to engage with her story. Just as in real life, when someone does something or says something or believes something that you despise, we don't engage with them. We dismiss them.

However, it is only thru engagement that we actually start to develop a better idea of their motivations, why they believe what they believe, and what has happened to them that has created this kind of behaviour. It humanized them.

This entire game is calling for us all to put aside our initial reactions to people we disagree with, people we have extreme negative emotions toward, and look at them as complex humans who are motivated to operate in the way they do because of an entire life or moments of pain and joy that sculpt them into the person you're interacting with now.

There is a strong parallel between Abby as your own personal "outgroup," and all the game is doing is asking you to engage with her story to see what happens for you. If you can start to see her on a different way

What is most interesting, is that if you can't, the game is actually most critical of you, as you are engaging with the exact narrow mindedness and miopic viewpoint that the game is critical of. Of refusing to engage with someone (and their thoughts and beliefs and motivations) because of a single act that you have found vile, but they obviously found justified.

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Yea, I think that having Joel die so early and unceremoniously is actually pretty powerful. It's a strong catalyst for the game's plot and sets up the parallels between Ellie and Abby's stories. Plus, I think it fits within the game's themes and world as well. I like Joel but he's not a superhero, his story ended with the first game.

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pezzicle posted...

That's the crux of the game. The entire structure is purposeful. It's made the way it is made to elicit feelings of anger when you play as Abby. You are supposed to not want to engage with her story. Just as in real life, when someone does something or says something or believes something that you despise, we don't engage with them. We dismiss them.

However, it is only thru engagement that we actually start to develop a better idea of their motivations, why they believe what they believe, and what has happened to them that has created this kind of behaviour. It humanized them.

This entire game is calling for us all to put aside our initial reactions to people we disagree with, people we have extreme negative emotions toward, and look at them as complex humans who are motivated to operate in the way they do because of an entire life or moments of pain and joy that sculpt them into the person you're interacting with now.

There is a strong parallel between Abby as your own personal "outgroup," and all the game is doing is asking you to engage with her story to see what happens for you. If you can start to see her on a different way

So would you say this is a more central/important theme than revenge is bad?

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redrocket posted...

So would you say this is a more central/important theme than revenge is bad?

100% I think that "revenge is bad" being your key takeaway from the game is pretty shallow. I don't think revenge bad is a central theme really at all and is more used at a catalyst to tell a story about sympathy and understanding

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I felt the game was more about forgiveness than revenge. Revenge is just the catalyst to move the story forward. Outside of the some narrative/gameplay conflicts I felt the story was above average.

I like Ellie, but by the end of the game I liked Abby more, and Ellie was coming off as the crazy person.

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tcaz2 posted...

I did not sympathize at ALL with Abby. She is an absolutely awful excuse for a human being that I genuinely wanted dead even more after her part of the story than I did before

Yikes. I'd hate to see how much you hate Ellie, then.

UltimaterializerX posted...

The issue, as Ive said at least 50 times now in various threads, is killing him right at the beginning of the game with no buildup under the circumstances presented.

Ulti, this is basic plot structure. Joel's death is the inciting event. You can't have a story about Ellie seeking revenge for Joel's death, alongside a story of Joel's killer learning to move on from empty revenge, without the act of killing Joel.

You're asking for Star Wars without Luke getting R2-D2. Iron Man without Tony getting kidnapped.

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So you're saying they should have made a whole extra game before this one that gives you investment into Joel and his relationship with Ellie?

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I'm happy that a bunch of people are enjoying the game, but some of you are coming off almost ignorant of why someone could not like the game.

First of all, the game doing what it wants to do is not and never has been the same as that the game is good. That they can make you hate Abby at first and then symphasize with her later on does not mean they wrote a good story in itself. The reason I did not like Abby much was never because of her killing Joel, she just simply gave me little reason to like her. Did I feel sorry for her? Sure, she lost almost everyone doing the story, but her life being utterly terrible does make her interesting at all. It does not help that we knew exactly where her story was going throughout her part of the game and we knew the fate of basically all the people she lost before she did. Also, at almost no point of the game did I share the character's motivations.

Stating that people just didn't get what they wanted basically sounds like you don't care to listen to the complaints. People that didn't enjoy the story wish that they did enjoy the story and are thinking of what could have made them. That does not mean they're just being whiny it wasn't what they wanted to get. I'm sure most people had nothing in particular in mind.

I felt sorry for both Ellie or Abby, but did not really care for either, because they weren't particularly likeable. Ellie has the advantage of having a previous game that made her super likeable, but most of the game I did not enjoy her this time. To the people somehow not managing to understand why people can have played the game and liked Ellie more than Abby, the first game is exactly why. You already knew and liked her going into the game and people will often take the side of whoeever they care for in a conflict, particularly when there are cases to be made for both sides. I'm not saying I liked Ellie more, just that it should be understandable. A lot of the time it seems like we should like Abby because she wasn't an awful human being after all, but I don't like her simply for not being that. That does not make you a good character.

The game managed to tell what it wanted to tell, but incredibly impressive cimnematic narrative by gaming standards does not mean it's necesarrily good and I did not find it to be. It was very simple, very dragged out and managed to feature a lot of characters who felt flat and had little to no developement. There are great bits in there, but on the overall scale I was never invested. Making you understand the motivation of something that initially seemed as wrong as it gets is hardly that impressive. Countless fictional stories have made you like someone that did something awful with a lot less reason for the awful act than this game had. I was simply not impressed by a story about understanding at any point. It was obvious form the start that Abby didn't kill Joel for no good reason whatsoever, so it wasn't surprising either.

It's not like story and characters were my only issues either. Other than the mentioned pacing issues, the gameplay wasn't fantastic either. I straight up did not enjoy melee combat and I believe a AAA game of 2020 can do better than having a punch and a dodge button which always dodges the same time of attack. Punching infected in the face when a bite form them can infect you seems ridiculously risky. It frustrates me how we fight clickers a lot of the time in cutscenes only for them to kill you the instant they touch you a little bit otherwise, although Abby having shivs helps. It was demotivating to me when beginning Abby's story that I had to upgrade her stuff again when I already upgraded myself and my weapons a lot. Abby learns different things and finds different weapons, but you still had to go for a lot of the same things twice which is annoying in one playthrough. Also, enemies hiding is BS, sometimes you can clearly see there whol head and shoot directly at it without anything happening. Another thing a AAA game of 2020 can do better than. Finally, deadnaming is a problem even if it doesn't bother you personally.

It sounds like I dislike the game a lot from this post. I don't. It was enjoyable most of the time, I just don't think it's that great and it annoys me just as much when people complains about others dislikng a game that knew it took risks as it does when people hate it based on a few lines they read. Some of the posts in here straight up makes it sound like it's wrong to not enjoy the game.

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It's fine to dislike the game, it's just that a lot of the hate is stupid.

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Can someone explain to me the issue with deadnaming in the context of this game? Wasn't the whole catalyst of Lev's story that the Scars didn't accept him so he had to run away? In that context, why would the people trying to kill him bother with calling him Lev? Plus, he pretty much left immediately so there's a good chance they didn't even know of his new name.

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...o..k...?

i'm literally just writing out my own thoughts on the game. I never once said that someone can't dislike the game

edit: weird, that ulti post was deleted

edit 2:oh wait. he blocked me

jfc wow. and im being obtuse and ridiculous in these topics? this board is insane. i'm literally discussing with people and they disagree with me so they block me or tell me my posts are trash etc

what a joke of a community

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pezzicle posted...

...o..k...?

i'm literally just writing out my own thoughts on the game. I never once said that someone can't dislike the game

edit: weird, that ulti post was deleted

edit 2:oh wait. he blocked me

jfc wow. and im being obtuse and ridiculous in these topics? this board is insane. i'm literally discussing with people and they disagree with me so they block me or tell me my posts are trash etc

what a joke of a community

Yeah. For the record, it has been absurd how some people on this board have reacted to you.

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