Board 8 > The Last of Us 2 topic (ongoing spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

pezzicle posted...

...o..k...?

i'm literally just writing out my own thoughts on the game. I never once said that someone can't dislike the game

edit: weird, that ulti post was deleted

edit 2:oh wait. he blocked me

jfc wow. and im being obtuse and ridiculous in these topics? this board is insane. i'm literally discussing with people and they disagree with me so they block me or tell me my posts are trash etc

what a joke of a community

Well, to be fair, you ran into Ulti and Biscuit, who can be some of the most obnoxious people here.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Go look at season 1 of Game of Thrones and pretend the "Baelor" episode was #2 instead of #9. That's essentially what this game's plot does.

No, that would be if that episode was episode #2 of Season 2.

You're focusing on the wrong thing of this discussion, and I would assume it's because you probably didn't actually play the game.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Well, to be fair, you ran into Ulti and Biscuit, who can be some of the most obnoxious people here.

Cute.

But pezz has been purposefully obtuse in both of these topics and has completely altered people's arguments and hasn't been worth conversing with about it. He's been either willfully ignorant or manipulative in any conversation, and I could tell that after he deluged like a dozen posts on me at one point before I could even respond in which he was arguing things I never said and he refused to listen to everyone telling him that he was.

All that said, I'm actually pretty bored with discussing the game already. It's got a ton wrong with it, and I think it's a disaster of writing, but I can see why people would like it (it's fine for a AAA game story). But Naughty Dog, Druckmann, and even Troy Baker of all people have been really gross in defending the writing in their game to the point where it's not worth my time to even discuss it further.

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You can think it's "cute," but dude, you just go so overboard when you decide to hate on something. Like, the initial spoiler topic was fine, it was interesting to read and see reactions. But then you just kept going and going and going, making these wide, sweeping judgments when you've admittedly never played the game. "Here are the spoilers, and they sound awful" was fine, but it should've stopped there. You just get really obsessive with hating certain things.

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Oh okay.

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I have not altered anyone's argument in either topic. I disagreed with your argument in the other topic. I have not engaged with you at all in this topic, nor have I really engaged with anyone's argument in this topic. I've stated my own opinion about things.

I also have not been manipulative of anything. You made points. I read them in a certain way and disagreed with them. That is literally the extent of our interaction.

Nor did I post a dozen messages at you, I was responding to a completely different user about how I didn't think I was misrepresenting your point, then you responded to a single thing I said and called my other posts trash and completely dismissed any discussion I was attempting to have. (as a side note, one of the thing you said in that topic I had issue with you doubled down on, and then you were still wrong about and when I pointed that out, you legit never responded at all to it - and I'm the one being dishonest?)

I don't care if you don't like the game. I'm having a discussion with people about it. If you can't handle someone reading your post and responding to it and asking you to flesh your ideas out, I dunno?

I have not once called anyone trash, nor their posts trash. I have not once tried to stifle conversation or discredit anyone's posts because they are "not arguing in good faith". Nor have I blocked people because I didn't like what they had to say. Like, you're posting at me here when I haven't engaged with you in any capacity for like 3 weeks. Come on man.


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I was replying to SEP about why I may have been "obnoxious" towards you, as they decided to involve me despite the fact I haven't even posted in this topic for a week or so, and then got defensive over my one word response after doing so.

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It's not like I @'d you, dude. I didn't "involve you" in anything. You were clearly already here.

Nothing defensive, either. Not my fault you can't take criticism.

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It was pretty telling when I said "but I was told this game was awful" and IMMEDIATELY, without being tagged, Biscuit responded.

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I checked the topic for the first time in probably three days. You took a pot shot at me in a conversation that I was uninvolved in.

I guess I should have just let you say something insulting about me though unprovoked.

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Also, if I wanted criticism from you, I probably would've asked for it, SEP.

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It's not a potshot at you when there's a ton of people insisting the game is shit.

But good job making everything about you.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I was replying to SEP about why I may have been "obnoxious" towards you, as they decided to involve me despite the fact I haven't even posted in this topic for a week or so, and then got defensive over my one word response after doing so.

Valid. I also legit don't think I did anything wrong in that original topic. I didn't think you were making very good points and I got absolutely trounced for even suggesting as such. I'm allowed to think your arguments are poor without being told my posts are trash and basically being run out of your topic.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

It sounds like I dislike the game a lot from this post. I don't. It was enjoyable most of the time, I just don't think it's that great and it annoys me just as much when people complains about others dislikng a game that knew it took risks as it does when people hate it based on a few lines they read. Some of the posts in here straight up makes it sound like it's wrong to not enjoy the game.

I think the biggest problem is that most of the critics of the game's story haven't even played it. Ulti and Biscuit post constantly about it despite never playing the games themselves. I'm not quite sure what's wrong with them.
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TheRock1525 posted...

It's not a potshot at you when there's a ton of people insisting the game is shit.

But good job making everything about you.

I can't tell if this is a serious post or not, but it made me laugh so kudos.

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TheRock1525 posted...

It's not a potshot at you when there's a ton of people insisting the game is shit.

But good job making everything about you.

No, he's right. I specifically called him obnoxious in response to pezz saying the community seemed toxic as fuck, since they butted heads.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Also, if I wanted criticism from you, I probably would've asked for it, SEP.

Too bad life doesn't really care when we do or don't want to be criticized for our actions, then.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

I think the biggest problem is that most of the critics of the game's story haven't even played it. Ulti and Biscuit post constantly about it despite never playing the games themselves. I'm not quite sure what's wrong with them.

I've pretty clearly said I've seen like 95% of the game via watching streams and videos (missing a small gap of stuff in Ellie's side). All I was really missing was hands on a controller. And the only statement I've made about the gameplay is that I heard it's much of the same as the last game and I probably wouldn't like playing this one since I didn't like the gameplay of the first game.

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BlackDra90n posted...

Can someone explain to me the issue with deadnaming in the context of this game? Wasn't the whole catalyst of Lev's story that the Scars didn't accept him so he had to run away? In that context, why would the people trying to kill him bother with calling him Lev? Plus, he pretty much left immediately so there's a good chance they didn't even know of his new name.

The issue is mostly that transgendered people have close to no represenation in video games, in particular triple a games this one. What they want is basically to be treated just like everyone else more than anything. This game has the best intentions about it I do not doubt, but Lev's story is an extreme story of trans people not being accepted where they come from, and that's not the representation you want at this point in time. It's a shame it has to be that way, but it is.

pezzicle posted...

...

I just want to clarify that my previous post wasn't directed at you. I disagree with you on a bunch of things about the game, but that fortunately doesn't have to be personal.

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HashtagSEP posted...

No, he's right. I specifically called him obnoxious in response to pezz saying the community seemed toxic as fuck, since they butted heads.

No, he's talking about how I said "but I was told this story was awful" and he chimed in literally 2 minutes later. And claimed it was a direct shot at him. Which literally doesn't make any sense that I would somehow make a nebulous comment in regards to people who hate this game that was somehow about solely him, yet would also take the time to criticize Leonhart4 in the other topic by literally posting directly at him.

So I need to use a general comment directed towards no one in particular, but somehow for the sole purpose of criticizing him, and yet will take the time to actually call someone out in a similar topic by name for something I disagree with them about.

If my goal was simply "hey biscuit you suck" I'm pretty sure I would have just said that.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I've pretty clearly said I've seen like 95% of the game via watching streams and videos (missing a small gap of stuff in Ellie's side). All I was really missing was hands on a controller. And the only statement I've made about the gameplay is that I heard it's much of the same as the last game and I probably wouldn't like playing this one since I didn't like the gameplay of the first game.

The main things that make the game are the feel of playing it and the constant surprises/intensity. That's something you'll never get after having read the spoilers and watching videos of the game. Your opinions on it are absolutely worthless, so why are you talking about it so much?
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in response to post 250: you're being fine pezz, ulti is the ridiculous one in 95% of his conversations.

UltimaterializerX posted...

No, I think this game should have been a full game that ends with Joel dying, or at least have it happen in the middle and set up a slow burn Abby face turn and sequel. Having a major character die ASAP is just bad storytelling and would get mocked by any reputable film/literature critic.

Okay but the major character didn't die ASAP. He died after a full game. This game doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists with the first game preceding it.

What would realistically happen in TLOU2 that would justify a sequel if it weren't a story like this one? Would Joel and Ellie just dick around in Jackson and occasionally go on patrol until Abby shows up to kill him at the end instead of the beginning? It's not like Abby is gonna exist for a whole game alongside Joel before she kills him. She's just gonna do it as soon as she finds him. Hence, the story structure given makes the most sense.

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Eh, I mean, I don't disagree that playing the game first hand gives you the best impression, in particular if you don't know what happens. But if you can watch 95% of the game and it doesn't seem good to you, then I'm sure you wouldn't like it regardless, so "absolutely worthless" sounds like a stretch to me.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

The issue is mostly that transgendered people have close to no represenation in video games, in particular triple a games this one. What they want is basically to be treated just like everyone else more than anything. This game has the best intentions about it I do not doubt, but Lev's story is an extreme story of trans people not being accepted where they come from, and that's not the representation you want at this point in time. It's a shame it has to be that way, but it is.

Right, so it's not necessarily about the deadnaming part but more of the idea that the game just uses transgenderism as a tragic plot device? I can understand that.

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I don't get why someone would decide they hated a game, then watch the entire playthrough over stream and post about it for a week straight.

That seems crazy to me.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

Eh, I mean, I don't disagree that playing the game first hand gives you the best impression, in particular if you don't know what happens. But if you can watch 95% of the game and it doesn't seem good to you, then I'm sure you wouldn't like it regardless, so "absolutely worthless" sounds like a stretch to me.

Yeah, I wouldn't say his opinions are "absolutely worthless" at all.

The problem is he has just been so overbearing with them since before the game had even come out to the point of seeming flat out obsessed with hating on it.

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BlackDra90n posted...

Right, so it's not necessarily about the deadnaming part but more of the idea that the game just uses transgenderism as a tragic plot device? I can understand that.

Well, those things are connceted, but yeah. I could have been more specific, I'll admit. The game clearly makes you symphasize with Lev, so it's not only a tragic plot device, but it's not what was needed at this time despite good intentions. It's my impression that there's mixed opinions about this from transgendered people, but the fact that many of them dislike this kind of representation is a problem.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Too bad life doesn't really care when we do or don't want to be criticized for our actions, then.

I legit read this like three times over trying to figure out what "life" has to do with this.

All I said that I thought it was cute of you to claim I'm obnoxious in a conversation I'm uninvolved with, completely unprovoked.

I called it cute, but if I wanted to be more clear I guess I could have called it obnoxious instead.

Mac Arrowny posted...

The main things that make the game are the feel of playing it and the constant surprises/intensity. That's something you'll never get after having read the spoilers and watching videos of the game. Your opinions on it are absolutely worthless, so why are you talking about it so much?

Now this is just flat out wrong.

I've discussed the game's story. Something you can do without 'having the feel of playing it'. I've offered plenty of reasoning why I felt like the writing was poor and ways it could have been improved.

@TheRock1525 The only thing I have ever said about your posts in this topic is the one where you said I was making everything about myself and I said it was funny. I have no idea what you're even talking about at this point.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

The issue is mostly that transgendered people have close to no represenation in video games, in particular triple a games this one. What they want is basically to be treated just like everyone else more than anything. This game has the best intentions about it I do not doubt, but Lev's story is an extreme story of trans people not being accepted where they come from, and that's not the representation you want at this point in time. It's a shame it has to be that way, but it is.

Legitimate question: doesn't great art resemble reality in many cases? Why wouldn't you want that representation? The game does not condone how the Scars are, and glorifies Abby for renouncing her faction to be a family of sorts with Lev and Yara. It says, "he isn't accepted in that group, and that group is in the wrong, but here is a character that does accept him as Lev and not Lily."

I'm not trans so I'll gladly defer to someone who is trans and played the game to completion saying they didn't approve of it for this reason. But I'd imagine the way this game depicts the transsexual struggle is welcomed because it's faithful to reality while also asking for reality to be better because trans people deserve better.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I've pretty clearly said I've seen like 95% of the game via watching streams and videos (missing a small gap of stuff in Ellie's side). All I was really missing was hands on a controller.

I'm a firm believer that you have to actually play it to have a fully credible opinion. That goes for most games, not just TLOU2 in particular. Not saying your opinion holds no weight, but I am saying it holds less weight than someone who played it front to back.

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VintageGin posted...

I don't get why someone would decide they hated a game, then watch the entire playthrough over stream and post about it for a week straight.

That seems crazy to me.

Oh, this is easy.

I really liked the story of the first game and wanted to watch it so that I could develop a fair opinion on it because I was curious to see if maybe the spoilers really did just make it all seem worse than it was, and that with context of how everything played out, does it end up making it all work better? I happen to be interested in writing in general, in various mediums, and I like analyzing that, for better or worse.

But like I said, I'm not really interested in discussing it anymore.

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Watching a game over a stream kinda takes you out of any emotional impact of being the one controlling the character. You're not the one making the choices/taking the actions, so it's much easier to feel completely disconnected from the experience and thus not get the same feeling people that have played it have.

Which, like said, doesn't make your opinion worthless at all, but it also doesn't make it equal to somebody that has actually played.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Watching a game over a stream kinda takes you out of any emotional impact of being the one controlling the character. You're not the one making the choices/taking the actions, so it's much easier to feel completely disconnected from the experience and thus not get the same feeling people that have played it have.

Which, like said, doesn't make your opinion worthless at all, but it also doesn't make it equal to somebody that has actually played.

QFT

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Ah, I think it was the posting order that had me confused. Because the post of me criticizing you for jumping in immediately after I made a comment was you talking about potshots, which I thought was a direct response to my post.

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Solioxrz362 posted...

Legitimate question: doesn't great art resemble reality in many cases? Why wouldn't you want that representation? The game does not condone how the Scars are, and glorifies Abby for renouncing her faction to be a family of sorts with Lev and Yara. It says, "he isn't accepted in that group, and that group is in the wrong, but here is a character that does accept him as Lev and not Lily."

I'm not trans so I'll gladly defer to someone who is trans and played the game to completion saying they didn't approve of it for this reason. But I'd imagine the way this game depicts the transsexual struggle is welcomed because it's faithful to reality while also asking for reality to be better because trans people deserve better.

Trans people want to be represented positively without being reminded of various traumas they go through. That's really it. They don't want to be the surprise villain, they don't want their character to be a tortured soul. They just want positive representation for them.

I think Lev is a good character and about the only one I liked, but from what I understand from my trans friends, they just didn't want to play this game with a poorly conceived fantasy about real trans issues and experiences. That's really about it.

Edit: Also, it isn't really "faithful to reality" because they're in a zombie apocalypse, and it's a creepy religious cult, it discusses themes of 'being a warrior', and Lev kills his mother at the end after she tries to kill him. It's a fantastical take on the real issues that trans people go through, and one of my trans friends described it as 'trivializing'. It's really just a poor setting to deal with a sensitive subject like trans issues.

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Isn't deadnaming a common theme in media created by transpeople too? Like in Sense8 the main trans character is frequently deadnamed, despite the show being written/directed by people who are trans, because its accurate to their experiences. Kinda like how a lot of movies about racism use the n-word, I guess?
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Solioxrz362 posted...

Legitimate question: doesn't great art resemble reality in many cases? Why wouldn't you want that representation? The game does not condone how the Scars are, and glorifies Abby for renouncing her faction to be a family of sorts with Lev and Yara. It says, "he isn't accepted in that group, and that group is in the wrong, but here is a character that does accept him as Lev and not Lily."

I'm not trans so I'll gladly defer to someone who is trans and played the game to completion saying they didn't approve of it for this reason. But I'd imagine the way this game depicts the transsexual struggle is welcomed because it's faithful to reality while also asking for reality to be better because trans people deserve better.

I mean, I wasn't personally bothered by it either and what you're descriping is undoubtfully the intention of the game. But when I see learn that a significant amount of the transgeneder community dislikes this representation despite wanting representation then that worries me, it should not be that way.

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Here's my current take on The Last of Us 2 having been spoiled but not played it, which means my opinions are worth more than any of yours':

The number of fans I've seen (thankfully mostly not on this board) who are up in arms because Joel didn't 'deserve' to die is absolutely baffling. It's okay to like Joel, he was a good character who could be sympathetic, but he was also a real piece of shit and a relative of one of the NUMEROUS people he killed coming back to take revenge is the least-surprising plot point of all time.

I've seen so many people put Joel on a pedestal and it weirds me out, and the vitriol towards Abby gives me the same vibes I got from the Breaking Bad fanbase glorifying Walter White and calling Skylar a 'bitch' just getting in his way. Absolutely guaranteed that there's less outrage if a generic white dude had killed Joel instead of a muscle-y woman.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

The issue is mostly that transgendered people have close to no represenation in video games, in particular triple a games this one. What they want is basically to be treated just like everyone else more than anything. This game has the best intentions about it I do not doubt, but Lev's story is an extreme story of trans people not being accepted where they come from, and that's not the representation you want at this point in time. It's a shame it has to be that way, but it is.

I just want to clarify that my previous post wasn't directed at you. I disagree with you on a bunch of things about the game, but that fortunately doesn't have to be personal.

For sure man I def don't have any beef with you at all you've been nothing but chill with me even tho we don't see eye to eye

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Edit: Also, it isn't really "faithful to reality" because they're in a zombie apocalypse, and it's a creepy religious cult, it discusses themes of 'being a warrior', and Lev kills his mother at the end after she tries to kill him. It's a fantastical take on the real issues that trans people go through, and one of my trans friends described it as 'trivializing'. It's really just a poor setting to deal with a sensitive subject like trans issues.

Gone Home must be not faithful to the experiences of lesbians then, because most lesbians don't have a family with a mansion and don't run away from home with their girlfriend who ditched the military. But obviously, the mansion and the military ditching aren't the point. Most games exist in a bit of a fantastical situation.

"Faithful to reality" doesn't mean it creates a 1:1 mirror of our reality. It means it gets to the heart of the issue and depicts that within the circumstances the game takes place in. Again, I'm not trans, but I didn't feel like it trivialized anything. I'm a straight white guy who lives in Texas, so my demographic would be one to normally trivialize the issues trans people face. Yet I played TLOU2, and I feel the same way about them as I did before: they deserve better, and our culture needs to evolve to include them properly.

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Solioxrz362 posted...

Gone Home must be not faithful to the experiences of lesbians then, because most lesbians don't have a family with a mansion and don't run away from home with their girlfriend who ditched the military. But obviously, the mansion and the military ditching aren't the point. Most games exist in a bit of a fantastical situation.

"Faithful to reality" doesn't mean it creates a 1:1 mirror of our reality. It means it gets to the heart of the issue and depicts that within the circumstances the game takes place in. Again, I'm not trans so my opinion doesn't matter as much on this, but I didn't feel like it trivialized anything. I'm a straight white guy who lives in Texas, so my demographic would be one to normally trivialize the issues trans people face. Yet I played TLOU2, and I feel the same way about them as I did before: they deserve better, and our culture needs to evolve to include them properly.

I think comparing the how faithful to reality Gone Home is to TLOU2 is a gigantic stretch.

You asked why trans people are upset. I explained to you why based on conversations I've had with them.

This isn't like some kind of allegory like X-Men for racism, it's taking trans issues and then framing them in a way that takes away the realness of the actual abuse they receive from friends and family, and how they cope, and how they deal with these issues. I think it was all done with good intentions in mind, but it was also done in a clumsy manner that probably could have used actual trans voices reviewing it.

They felt like it didn't get to the heart of the issue at all, clearly. And I'm willing to take their opinions on it far more than yours because, as you said, you aren't trans and they are.

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I would also say, just like I would say to you, if there's a trans person criticizing that aspect of the game, then I can only take their opinion at full value if they've played it. That's not to say their opinion doesn't matter. That's to say you can't have a fully credible opinion on something you haven't experienced for yourself the right way.

If they played the game through to the end and still feel that way, then alright. Don't agree with it much, but at least I understand the perspective now.

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Here's the thing.

They've dealt with so much trauma from their experience being trans that they don't want to play this game. There is no warning for them, and they were told how it plays out and they have no interest in dealing with it. It's easy to say "They can't judge because they didn't play it" but they don't want to play it because they don't want to experience all of this but with a dressing of "religious cult" or "trans empowerment murdering people wantonly who deadname them and moves on like nothing".

And why should they? Why should their opinions mean less without playing the game, when their opinions should matter most because it's offensive enough to them that they don't want to play it? I'm not going to expect any of them to force themselves through a game knowing they'll hate how trans issues are portrayed to give a more proper opinion on it.

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Their opinion on why or why not in regards to wanting to play the game does matter, absolutely.

If they extend that opinion to trying to tell people who have played the game that it's a bad game and why, their opinion no longer holds as much weight for that bigger subject.

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You're right that it's totally okay to not want to play the game fearing that you'll have to relive trauma. That's fine. It'd be ludicrous to tell someone they have to play it, and it's ludicrous to tell someone they can't have an opinion.

Yet their opinions still mean less about the game having not played the game because the game is not anti-trans, and it's not even blatantly doing anything wrong with its depiction. This a grey area. Some people think it's done right, some people don't. Most people even agree the intentions behind the depiction are on the right track. So deciding you're against it before having the controller in your hand means you're not a credible source of criticism. If you know you'll hate how the trans issues are portrayed without actually experiencing the portrayal, then I'm sorry, the opinion holds less weight whether you're trans or not.

EDIT: I like what SEP said. I agree with that.

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Woof. This went places today.

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I found a Youtube video the other day that has "It Has To Be This Way" from Metal Gear Rising playing over the Abby VS Ellie boss fights, and although it's obviously a meme video made because of the Senator Armstrong comparisons, I did think that the song's lyrics fit the context of this game's story and the relationship between Ellie and Abby unironically. In particular, "Violence breeds violence, but in the end it has to be this way", ties into the cycle of revenge where both characters may recognize that they should move on, they can't bring themselves to do it, until they've lost almost everything, and there are other lyrics that highlight how Ellie and Abby aren't so different after all, and despite their hatred of each other, they have a lot in common.

HashtagSEP posted...

Well, to be fair, you ran into Ulti and Biscuit, who can be some of the most obnoxious people here.

Most of his nonsense is in Biscuit's 500 topic. The dude either cannot read or doesn't want to.


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I'm still going with this, incredibly slowly now that my girlfriend is back to work and there isn't much joint time to play.

Not sure if people are still using spoiler tags are not, will wait until I finish the game to read through everything. Just got to the farm and holy fuck what a whirlwind of all the emotions. Fuck.

Unless the rest of this game, which I assume is nearing its end, is incredibly awful, I'm very confident in my 2 > 1 hot take, and will be ready to fight everyone here in real life about it once I finish the game sometime this weekend.

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When I first started playing as Abby I was not looking forward to it, but the game did a great job of making me care about the character. The Abby/Ellie showdown in the theater was rough but it ended about as positive as it could have.

It's nice to see Tommy alive, but fuck they need to let it go. Somebody is going to end up dying here and it's probably Ellie. If I'm speaking objectively, she kind of deserves it for continuing this, but fuck I am not going to be ready for it when it happens.

I should finish the game this evening!

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Credits are rolling. Man, what a game.

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Thumbs up

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