Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 296: "Needless Suffering and Death"

(+) Yeah! (+)

But enough about the debates in these topics
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1260032616780034049

this is the pinned tweet on trump's twitter now that close to 82000 americans have died of covid

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Pa did a partial reopen on about 1/4th of its counties on the 8th and today reported the least number of new daily cases since March 28th

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

this is the pinned tweet on trump's twitter now that close to 82000 americans have died of covid

This video is amazing to me

this programming truly is programming- he's taking a bunch of clips of seriously people saying 'yeah, trump is probably a russian asset' and trying to tell people this is good for trump and shows his innocence

it's like that 'this is good for bitcoin' meme

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About the whole thing about male leaders being obsessed with waving their dicks around at the expense of actually doing anything productive, I just feel like that's more apparent than ever before now.

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https://twitter.com/GreatSouledSam/status/1260181562903183360

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SmartMuffin posted...

https://twitter.com/GreatSouledSam/status/1260181562903183360

Lol!!! My sides XD

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/breonna-taylor-louisville-police-shooting-death-coronavirus-nurse-ahmaud-arbery-a9510591.html

I can already hear conservatives defense of police in this case. Nevermind that the guy they were looking for: 1. Didn't live there, and 2. Was already arrested earlier that day.

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SmartMuffin posted...

https://twitter.com/GreatSouledSam/status/1260181562903183360

is the joke that he died from covid anyway?

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Ashethan posted...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/breonna-taylor-louisville-police-shooting-death-coronavirus-nurse-ahmaud-arbery-a9510591.html

I can already hear conservatives defense of police in this case. Nevermind that the guy they were looking for: 1. Didn't live there, and 2. Was already arrested earlier that day.

You know, for someone so willing to get up in arms about police overreach when they extricate a guy from a bus for not wearing a mask...I really wish that, JUST ONCE, freedom-loving libertarian Smuffin would be the one posting articles like this, rather than lolling at his hilarious comic.

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https://www.politico.com/newsletters/huddle/2020/05/12/gop-feels-no-pressure-from-pelosi-on-next-relief-bill-489195

Oh weird, you mean cooperating with the Republicans on a middling first batch of relief was a mistake???

Who could have seen this coming?

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i wish freedom-loving libertarian smuffin would throw his MAGA hat in the trash

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-wisconsin-protests-test-positive-department-of-health-services-a9509486.html

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SmartMuffin posted...

https://twitter.com/GreatSouledSam/status/1260181562903183360

Honestly if everyone in the second panel was dead Id actually say this was a good comic
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Imagine reading that article and blaming Democrats.

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TotallyNotMI posted...

Imagine reading that article and blaming Democrats

Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

...Fool me three times, shame on you again?

This does not mean the Republicans are blameless, it just means the Democrats need to learn from their damn mistakes.

Why are you like this?

Excusing their faults because "then the other guy wins" is why our politics fucking sucks.

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yeah Im more mad at the Democrats right now because theyre the ones who are supposed to be on my side

I expect nothing of the Republicans so its pretty hard for them to disappoint me
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

yeah Im more mad at the Democrats right now because theyre the ones who are supposed to be on my side

https://hypixel.net/attachments/are-you-sure-about-that-jpg.1146990/

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How have the Democrats fooled us? They're voting on another round of stimulus for over $2 trillion. Republicans are saying no.

If Democrats refuse to compromise, the blame gets put on the Democrats. When Republicans refuse to compromise... the blame gets put on the Democrats.

No, they aren't perfect. But blaming them here for this is utter bull.

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Tony's argument has always been that somehow Democrats should give us absolutely nothing because they cant get exactly what they want forever.

The fuck people argument.

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Democrats aren't being blamed for refusing to compromise, they're being blamed for giving Republicans what they want too easily. Republicans don't give up anything the other side wants without getting their pound of flesh first. And that includes things Republicans want themselves - why pass the bill and get what you want when you can extort the Democrats a little and get both what you wanted and the extortion payment?


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Democrats got massive unemployment benefits through July.

That wasnt "small" or unnecessary or even something a large amount of Americans could afford to wait on.

But yeah they should have turned it down for political gain.

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The Democrats should negotiate with Trump rather than Congressional Republicans if they want more. If Trump gives the order, Congressional Republicans would appropriate billions for a national monument to pork barrel spending.

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Not to mention the amount of people I say saying "Not a single Democrat voted for the Republican stimulus bill!" while ignoring the flip side of Republicans not voting on the Democrat bill. Imagine if they were still holding out how the media would be skewering them.

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red sox 777 posted...

Democrats aren't being blamed for refusing to compromise, they're being blamed for giving Republicans what they want too easily. Republicans don't give up anything the other side wants without getting their pound of flesh first. And that includes things Republicans want themselves - why pass the bill and get what you want when you can extort the Democrats a little and get both what you wanted and the extortion payment?

I would hope because Democratic voters would vote them out of office if they adopted the latter strategy.
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red13n posted...

Tony's argument has always been that somehow Democrats should give us absolutely nothing because they cant get exactly what they want forever.

The fuck people argument.

No, my argument is, ironically, the argument made by the Twitter thread @LordoftheMorons shared at the end of the last topic.

Democrats constantly put themselves into a position where their first foot forward is already a compromise, leading to an end result of a compromise that has been compromised on.

They need to demand more from the front end, because they will literally never pull Republicans back their way, they are literally always the pull-ees.

red13n posted...

Democrats got massive unemployment benefits through July.

That wasnt "small" or unnecessary or even something a large amount of Americans could afford to wait on.

But yeah they should have turned it down for political gain.

Again, where is anybody saying the Democrats should have turned that down??

I'm saying when there were at least 5 better proposals for stimulus, including one from Tom fucking Cotton, the Dems managed a one-time payment of $1200.

Which they are now saying isn't enough, just like everyone was saying back then.

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pyresword posted...

I would hope because Democratic voters would vote them out of office if they adopted the latter strategy.

You would hope Democratic voters would vote out Democrats for giving their voters what they want, and more?

What the fuck? Am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

You would hope Democratic voters would vote out Democrats for giving their voters what they want, and more?

What the fuck? Am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?

He's saying he'd hope Democratic voters would vote out Democrats that held basic human services hostage in order to get better deals.

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Again, you want Democrats to go with the fuck people for the narrative strategy.

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I'm saying that I hope Democratic voters do not want their elected officials to prioritize extorting Republicans for political benefit over making good-faith attempts to pass functional legislation.

It's a response to red sox's phrasing specifically and I don't know how applicable it actually is in most real-life scenarios.
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red13n posted...

Again, you want Democrats to go with the fuck people for the narrative strategy.

I want them to go with the do more for the people instead of shit like this:

https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1258095333285875712?s=21

strategy
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I'm going to reiterate how fucking essential it was to get the stimulus passed immediately. There were plenty of people out there where another week of debate would mean a week of struggling just to put food on the table.

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Fuck people now to save more later.

Otherwise nobody is gonna ever actually be happy consistently and securely. We just have to acknowledge that with the current political climate there's a good chance that the only way to actually give the future generation what they need is to completely sacrifice our own. The Democratic party as it is will never make worthwhile strides towards progressivism with it's current leaders and strategies.

Inviso posted...

He's saying he'd hope Democratic voters would vote out Democrats that held basic human services hostage in order to get better deals.

The basic human services are already being held hostage.

You are endorsing giving the hostage-takers what they want in exchange for them not taking more hostages, I am saying Democrats should actually get the hostages out alive.

One of these is objectively better. Like yes, it's harder, but when youre constantly giving the hostage-takers what they want, you're always going to be pulled towards their goals rather than yours.


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The basic human services are already being held hostage.

You are endorsing giving the hostage-takers what they want in exchange for them not taking more hostages, I am saying Democrats should actually get the hostages out alive.

One of these is objectively better. Like yes, it's harder, but when youre constantly giving the hostage-takers what they want, you're always going to be pulled towards their goals rather than yours.

Take this statement and apply it to voting for Hillary Clinton/Joe Biden over Donald Trump, rather than bitching about them not being good enough, and I think you ALMOST understand why centrists/moderates get frustrated with you.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Fuck people now to save more later.

Otherwise nobody is gonna ever actually be happy consistently and securely. We just have to acknowledge that with the current political climate there's a good chance that the only way to actually give the future generation what they need is to completely sacrifice our own.

Sure sounds like the same logic why we need to reopen the economy that Republicans keep pushing.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

One of these is objectively better. Like yes, it's harder, but when youre constantly giving the hostage-takers what they want, you're always going to be pulled towards their goals rather than yours.

Its literally fucking people for your long term goals.

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I'm with Tony on this one, the Democrats had one chance to get shit done and it was back in March during the initial negotiations. They needed to raise hell and demand more, because the good faith compromise never works out for them. Also, adjourning Congress and doing nothing all April was a dumbass move by both parties, but I digress.

Look at the political reality now. ALL of the legislative power is now in the Senate. The country is starting to reopen. Republicans have no reason to budge because they care more about the crisis's impact on the economy than on the people. They've said as much. It's going to take another spike in cases and deaths for them to move.

And to be clear - the Republicans refusing to entertain more legislation have most of the blame. But the Democrats squandered their opportunity to get more accomplished because they just wanted any action at all. Republicans have been doing this "take it or leave it" style of "compromise" since the House flipped and Democrats never call the bluff.

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Yeah, red's point is well taken IMO. It's possible the Democrats could have extracted a better final bill if they decided to engage in brinksmanship or entered a more protracted negotiation phase where they opened much higher and both sides had to make trades, etc.

That's true. It's by no means a guarantee and to be perfectly honest, with how openly shameless McConnell is I actually have my doubts it really would succeed at all, I have almost zero doubt he'd be willing to just let people suffer by deadlocking the thing.

However, all these avenues would require time, and that is not a luxury the people most suffering and in need of relief have. That the Republicans seemingly have no compassion for these people tilts the negotiating table way in their favor because Democrats realize they don't have the time to wage an ideological battle here because even if they can win it there's preventable suffering happening if they go that route.

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The most absolutely nauseating thing is people are going to be dumb and use distancing working as "proof" it was never necessary.

Some Republicans I know are just blunt about it: most people dying would be dead in a few years anyway, so the economy's more important they say. Others are either brainwashed by talk radio nut jobs or so addicted to conspiracy theories they have little conception of what the real world is actually like.

I mean, there is a significant chunk of the Republican party that thinks the Republicans are better at protecting coverage for existing preexisting medical conditions and that coverage is at risk if Democrats win, despite the fact that Republicans have fought extremely hard to end those protections ever since they were made law.

Voxwik posted...

The most absolutely nauseating thing is people are going to be dumb and use distancing working as "proof" it was never necessary.

they already are.

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Inviso posted...

Take this statement and apply it to voting for Hillary Clinton/Joe Biden over Donald Trump, rather than bitching about them not being good enough, and I think you ALMOST understand why centrists/moderates get frustrated with you.

https://www.iol.co.za/technology/worlds-longest-arms-in-good-use-307542

You might want to hit up Guinness with that record-breaking reach.

xp1337 posted...

Yeah, red's point is well taken IMO. It's possible the Democrats could have extracted a better final bill if they decided to engage in brinksmanship or entered a more protracted negotiation phase where they opened much higher and both sides had to make trades, etc.

That's true. It's by no means a guarantee and to be perfectly honest, with how openly shameless McConnell is I actually have my doubts it really would succeed at all, I have almost zero doubt he'd be willing to just let people suffer by deadlocking the thing.

However, all these avenues would require time, and that is not a luxury the people most suffering and in need of relief have. That the Republicans seemingly have no compassion for these people tilts the negotiating table way in their favor because Democrats realize they don't have the time to wage an ideological battle here because even if they can win it there's preventable suffering happening if they go that route.

Ok but as I already addressed, literal Republicans such as Tom Cotton offered more than what the Democrats compromised to.

My entire point is that they didn't even try. Everybody knew, in this topic, in the media, everywhere, that the initial volley of stimulus was likely to be the only chance for anything of substance that could actually get to the people. Democrats chose a short-term, short-sighted solution over something that would actually solve the issue.

Is it possible more people would have suffered if they delayed a few days? Sure! It's possible. But right now it's an absolutely certainty that people are suffering and need help.

Help that is extremely unlikely to arrive.

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Honestly what Inviso said isn't really a stretch at all it just came out of left field since it has nothing to do with the topic of discussion lol.

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It's a stretch because I'm comparing fighting for your ideals as opposed to STARTING at settling, and Inviso twisted it into support for settling outright just because I said "one of these is objectively better", lol--and yes, it came completely out of nowhere.

If you want to talk about Hillary and Biden, there's all the time in the world to settle for their asses, and in the meantime I'm going to point out their faults. Sorry if "better than dogshit" is an acceptable level for you to stay quiet, Inviso, but it's just...not for me?

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this isn't a "better than dogshit" scenario. The stimulus helped people a fuckton. It had problems yes but its not "possible" people would struggle with a delay, people actively would have struggled with a delay.

And saying it would have been a few days shows you are ignorant of how our government works.

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red13n posted...

this isn't a "better than dogshit" scenario. The stimulus helped people a fuckton. It had problems yes but its not "possible" people would struggle with a delay, people actively would have struggled with a delay.

And saying it would have been a few days shows you are ignorant of how our government works.

You seem to be under the impression I wanted them to start this fight the day the proposal would have been passed.

I'm saying they should have seized more from the start. I dunno, maybe starting at Tom Cotton's proposal and moving rightwards, which is the craziest thing I've ever said.

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Republicans immediately turned and shut those proposals down. It wasn't like they were ever seriously on the table.

Again, they would have taken time we didn't have.

His proposal was backed by...Mitt Romney. To show how little Republican support that actually would have gotten.

The Republican pushback was for the money to be in the form of tax credits at the time(The $1200 we got is untaxable now). So it was pushed left from that.

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xp1337 posted...

That's true. It's by no means a guarantee and to be perfectly honest, with how openly shameless McConnell is I actually have my doubts it really would succeed at all, I have almost zero doubt he'd be willing to just let people suffer by deadlocking the thing.

100% this.

And the blame would be getting put on the Democrats.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

It's a stretch because I'm comparing fighting for your ideals as opposed to STARTING at settling, and Inviso twisted it into support for settling outright just because I said "one of these is objectively better", lol--and yes, it came completely out of nowhere.

If you want to talk about Hillary and Biden, there's all the time in the world to settle for their asses, and in the meantime I'm going to point out their faults. Sorry if "better than dogshit" is an acceptable level for you to stay quiet, Inviso, but it's just...not for me?

I mean, okay. I guess that means I care more about progressive policies being enacted than you, but at least you have your ideals. I'm sure the downtrodden people you claim to give a shit about are happy you didn't compromise.

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Inviso posted...

I mean, okay. I guess that means I care more about progressive policies being enacted than you, but at least you have your ideals. I'm sure the downtrodden people you claim to give a shit about are happy you didn't compromise.

At this point I feel like you're not even reading my posts or are so caught up in getting your frustrations out on me you're just trolling.

I didn't say "don't compromise", I said don't START at a compromise (because the Republicans won't!)


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