Board 8 > The Show EP 1 - The Glorious Return of GotD! Breaking down the bracket w/ Leon

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm on the same thinking as Metalmind. I believe SBAllen and his "selection committee" had their hand in picking out the games that were on the bubble. Some executive decisions were made, as management should do when it comes to stuff like this (March Madness, baby).

I can understand Skyward Sword and FFXIII not getting in if he decided there should be a cap on series to diversify the bracket (BotW/ALBW and FFXIV/FFXV made the cut). Whether you think those games are good or not doesn't matter, they still have it's fans. But you're telling me a bunch of Pokemon can make a character battle bracket but only ONE game this decade got enough nominations to make the bracket? That is pure craziness. PokeFEAR is real and I think Allen is aware of it by now after seeing a Pokemon character/game do well in pretty much every contest since 2010.


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How many of the Pokemon who make the bracket every contest are from the games that didn't make the cut?

Because I'm guessing the answer is zero.

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• X/Y made the Best. Game. Ever. bracket
• Sun/Moon got 47% on FFXV
• Fate / Grand Order made the bracket as an 8th seed...over Pokemon GO?

Something is a little off here.

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Yeah, people don't actually care about those games anymore.

Or they LFF'd each other in the nomination process.

But yes you can believe that Allen is shaking in his boots over a game that couldn't beat FFXV

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X/Y also flopped hard. 2013-2016 was the second time Pokemon peaked. However the issues with Go, the mixed reception of Sun/Moon and Dexit caused it to collapse. A lot of former fans are now resentful of it

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LeonhartFour posted...

Yeah, people don't actually care about those games anymore.

Or they LFF'd each other in the nomination process.

But yes you can believe that Allen is shaking in his boots over a game that couldn't beat FFXV

Still, highly doubt a good number of the games that made that bracket got more nominations then a snubbed Pokemon game. It's not that farfetched that Allen just wanted one Pokemon game in the bracket. But I like how you talk as if you're the voice of everyone who plays Pokemon. Just because you say it, it must be true!


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I could say the same about you! You're convinced Allen is doing Pokemon dirty because you think it should be doing better!

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I just don't think there's any reason for Allen to be afraid of any Pokemon games other than the one he actually allowed in. If he wanted to minimize the damage, he'd have just DQ'd HG/SS on grounds it didn't qualify and put in the games that aren't popular enough to do any damage.

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All I'm saying is you can't automatically assume a game didn't make the bracket cause it didn't get enough nominations. Pokemon is just an example.

You can't assume a games seeding is purely on nominations either. Unless you think Fate / GO got the same amount of nominations as A Link Between Worlds.

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Wow, I didn't know about dexit. That's... bad.

Not enough to outright kill the series, but it is probably the start of a downright spiral.

I feel better about Nier > Pokemon though, now.

SwiftyDC posted...

All I'm saying is you can't automatically assume a game didn't make the bracket cause it didn't get enough nominations. Pokemon is just an example.

You can't assume a games seeding is purely on nominations either. Unless you think Fate / GO got the same amount of nominations as A Link Between Worlds.

And you can't assume Allen deliberately snubbed Pokemon because he's afraid Sun/Moon is going to go on a deep run when there's no reason to believe it.

And Allen always tweaks seeding. Nominations aren't strictly seeding based. He said he was going to take outside metrics into account with seeding as well.

And nominations don't equal strength anyway, so that argument doesn't matter.

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Touche. I don't think Sun/Moon would get rallied behind at all.

Maybe Allen will read this and give us clarity on it. It's weird that he didn't even do vote-ins so we'd atleast had an idea of what was on the bubble.

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FF13 should have made it in also, you guys are right. So many scrub indie games made it in.

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Yo is right on late 2011/early 2012 "ARROW to the KNEE" comments on everything. Skyrim was huge outside of gaming culture.

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so much Persona 5 disrespect.


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SwiftyDC posted...

* X/Y made the Best. Game. Ever. bracket
* Sun/Moon got 47% on FFXV
* Fate / Grand Order made the bracket as an 8th seed...over Pokemon GO?
Something is a little off here.

Oh yea this is the 2nd biggest snub of the bracket. Pokemon Go defined gaming in summer 2016, it took over the entire world for about 2 months.


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Nier vs Pokemon is pretty tough

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_SecretSquirrel posted...

I'd love to back the theory discussed towards the end where we are overvaluing Breath of the Wild, but I don't think Link would have absolutely destroyed Characters 2018 if Breath of the Wild wasn't head and shoulders above the pack here. The fact that he was already well above everyone else and then STILL BOOSTED is just crazy to think about, like we haven't even seen Zelda's ceiling yet.

Yeah pretty much this.

2018 Link might be the strongest non-rallied character ever. Onloy Cloud could barely get 40% on him.

And nothing explains that well besides BotW.

I think I might take that game to beat FF7 or CT, tbh.

SwiftyDC posted...

Unless you think Fate / GO got the same amount of nominations as A Link Between Worlds.

I do, honestly. And I think Allen seeded this bracket mostly from nominations, except for throwing out certain second/third entries in series. If Allen had really used the other metrics he mentioned on the nomination form for seeding more globally, F/GO would have been lucky to even make the bracket, since it doesn't have a Metascore.

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MetalmindStats posted...

I'm still completely unsure where all the Undertale confidence is coming from here. Unrallied Undertale definitely isn't the same game it was in 2015, yes, but for every voter who has played and loved it since 2015, there's another who still dislikes it because of 2015. Someone (I think War or TPLink, but I forget who exactly) put it this way: you(r flagship character) can't get 30% on Pac-Man without losing the neutral vote. On the other hand, Octopath Traveler might not be truly beloved, but it's well within our wheelhouse, and came out at just the right time for just the right platform to have a decent playrate here. So all in all, Shovel Knight will win Undertale's fourpack over Octopath Traveler in three Ulti-style blowouts, book it! Alas, I can't call it because I'm not Nick.

I think I wasn't the one who made that specific point, but let me make my own point:

I don't believe Amaterasu is strong enough to put 88% on anything without some weird factor going on.

Like, how many times has that same % of higher happened in contests? How many of them involved a non-noble niner? I might be wrong, but I don't recall a single instance. This is the kind of % that's usually reserved for Link matches. Snake put a similar % on Tanner and it became a meme. Is Draven weaker than Tanner? Because Ammy isn't as strong as Snake.

And in 2018, one trend was that it was very hard for anyone break 80%. I think it only happened like 4 times, and Ammy not only broke that ceiling but went way over it.

Draven finished dead last in the xstats. They give him getting only 24% against Cayde-6. Do you know who Cayde-6 is? It's a minor character from Destiny. Apparently most Destiny players don't even know him. He'd still triple 2018 Draven, though.

So point is, is Draven's performance in 2018 explained JUST by his natural strength? Is he THAT weak? Like, "would be doubled by Tanner" weak?

No, I think what really explains it is an extrreme case of anti-voting. On that day, GameFAQs had its revenge and regained its honor.

And I think Part 2 of that quest to regain honor will be the Octopath vs Undertale match.

I think Undertale will be anti-voted but I also think we were way angrier with Draven.

Not to mention Draven's natural strength is pathetic anyway. Dude was getting crushed by Jak and Chie before the rally.

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Anyway, finished the episode. It was great. I think it made me change my bracket maybe 5 times? It also helped me vindicate my Donkey Kong pick, that doesn't seem that popular around the board. You guys have some interesting opinions that sometimes differ from the norm.

If I even win this, it's going to be because my bracket was a product of the input from all the analysis I read/listened to during those two weeks. Because the experience from the 5/121 games I played this decade certainly will not be, lol.

Leonhart4 posted...

I think Undertale will be anti-voted but I also think we were way angrier with Draven.

Not to mention Draven's natural strength is pathetic anyway. Dude was getting crushed by Jak and Chie before the rally.

Well I do agree we were, if only because the people who came to the board in 2013 were some of the most horrible bunch I've ever seen. The Undertale ones had a more sportsman feel to it.

But to this day I see a lot of people badmouthing Undertale whenever they hear about it. Some of them still refuse to play it. I don't think that factor can be ignored.

Oh, I agree. I said as much during the episode (assuming Ng left it in! I haven't tried to listen to it yet!). I just think it has a higher natural ceiling than Draven and it won't get hit quite as hard.

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I'm surprised to hear that DKC is an unpopular pick against DMC. Of the very few (I think six) first round seeding upsets I have, that's among my most confident.

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I'm surprised to hear that DKC is an unpopular pick against DMC. Of the very few (I think six) first round seeding upsets I have, that's among my most confident.

I think part of it is how bad Tropical Freeze has done in polls, but it came out in years with some heavy hitters. My initial reaction was DMC5 when I first saw the bracket, but I've changed it since then.

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I'm not super confident about it tbh, I'm just going with "when in doubt, pick nintendo".

Worked in 2018 multiple times.

I think what sold me on DK was taking a look back at his 2018 numbers he trounced Tidus and Leon Kennedy. Plus Tropical Freeze has done nothing but gain fans and respect over the years.

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I also kinda doubt DMC has a super high play rate and think that DKC will get more votes from people who have played neither (Ive only played Tropical Freeze, and it was very good).

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My theory about Pokemon is that *no* Pokemon game actually had enough nominations to make the bracket, because they were spread thinly between the... eight? nine?? eligible games, so Allen combined all their nominations together and put them toward the game that had the most nominations, HGSS.

This is based on nothing, of course. I was just trying to reverse-engineer an explanation for the only pokemon game getting a 3-seed.

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Being that it shares the day with Odyssey, I think DK will continue it's streak of advancing out of R1 to 5 in a row.

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Great episode guys overall. Really enjoyed listening to it all, helped me with my bracket. I'm sticking with Devil May Cry 5 tho

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My thoughts about the Show's deep dive into Divisions 5-7:

• With one major exception that I'll get to in a bit, I pretty much agree with everything you all said about Division 5. I don't agree with KP that Stardew is the strongest indie game on GameFAQs, nor do I think it's broken the indie glass ceiling here, but it won't matter against such hideously weak opposition (seriously, the original Destiny after everyone's moved on to its more well-liked sequel?!).
• That one major exception is The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth vs Nioh. I'm pretty confident Nioh can pull a win off there, simply because a Japanese AAA Soulsborne is vastly ahead of an American Indie Roguelite on the flowchart. I also don't think Isaac will have much of a bracket advantage if any, since the seeding's close and Nioh is likely the more well-known game on GameFAQs. Plus, Nioh 2 is about to be released.
• I'm convinced Super Meat Boy would have quite comfortably made the bracket even without its Guru support, considering the seeds of similar games such as VVVVVV, Bastion (due to their shared place in the indie boom), and Isaac: Rebirth. While we're on a seeding-related note, I'm not even sure Board 8 was solely responsible for Ys VIII reaching the field - we only gave it 5 nominations, versus say 11 for Night in the Woods counting noms not posted in KP's topic, and the latter's only a 14 seed.
• I do like Yo's line of logic about Portal 2, if only because I also have it reaching the divisional finals. However, there needs to be an actual reason for asking whether its opposition can truly beat it, much like Mario RPG's powerful brand names and nostalgia in a division that otherwise lacked both at once. Luckily, there is some good reasoning Yo didn't mention for using Portal 2 as such a litmus test: it's the only truly beloved game in its half of the division, and as Leon mentioned, its poll results are quite solid, also outclassing the rest of its half.
• I was really surprised to hear all three of you spring for Rocket League over Dragon Ball FighterZ. Non-Smash fighting games might not be popular on GameFAQs, but they at least have their fans, with Tekken, Street Fighter, and Mortal Kombat all getting their latest installments into the bracket despite the latter two being not so well-liked. On the other hand, Rocket League is literally the only sports game to be seen, and it certainly seems like a mistake to assume such a casual-skewing game has been widely played and is well-liked on GameFAQs just because it's been a breakout mainstream success. Even more important than that, however, I strongly suspect the match pictures this time around will be standardized based on each game's bracket boxart just as in 2015. If so, that gives Dragon Ball FighterZ a massive advantage with Super Saiyan Goku lookin' all-world to vacuum in the casual/neutral votes. I might be implicitly biased because the 30 minutes I played of Rocket League were perhaps among the most miserable gaming experiences of my life (sorry Ng), but I legitimately think FighterZ is the smart pick here.
• For whatever reason, even though it's the only true 50-50 divisional final, I just can't get myself adequately hyped for Dark Souls vs The Last of Us. Dark Souls feels like the obvious pick there to an anticlimactic extent, even with Last of Us having a 2015 stats advantage and hype for its sequel - not to say Last of Us is a bad choice by any means, but I don't think anything pre-contest could convince me to switch to it. I did enjoy Yo's rant about people's reaction to the lesbian kiss in the Last of Us 2 trailer, though.

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MetalmindStats posted...

but they at least have their fans, with Tekken, Street Fighter, and Mortal Kombat all getting their latest installments into the bracket despite the latter two being not so well-liked

I mean, MK11 is a 15 seed and Tekken 7 is a 16 seed, and all three of those games are going to lose round 1. You don't necessarily have to be that popular overall just to make the bracket. If Rocket League were a traditional sports game like Madden, I would agree with you. Those would do even worse than fighters, but I just don't think the Dragon Ball name alone can carry it to a victory and you almost have to believe it can to pick it, in my opinion.

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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean, MK11 is a 15 seed and Tekken 7 is a 16 seed, and all three of those games are going to lose round 1. You don't necessarily have to be that popular overall just to make the bracket. If Rocket League were a traditional sports game like Madden, I would agree with you. Those would do even worse than fighters, but I just don't think the Dragon Ball name alone can carry it to a victory and you almost have to believe it can to pick it, in my opinion.

Dragon Ball FighterZ is better than those games though. And Id take Mortal Kombat 11 over Rocket League just on name alone.

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I have an argument for DBZ > Rocket League

Pic factor.

Seriously, just look at the cover pics. DBZ looks awesome and RL seems to have the wrong resolution.

Assuming Allen will use them for the matches, which is very likely.

Yeah i reckon the Dragonball name and pic factor will probably see it over the line.

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ZeldaTPLink posted...

I have an argument for DBZ > Rocket League

Pic factor.

Seriously, just look at the cover pics. Assuming Allen will use them for the matches, which is very likely.

If anything people may vote Rocket League cause of Back to the Future! What the hell I just noticed that.

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This is recent, but apparently TLOU just got announced a TV show.

Back to the Future logo with a DeLoreon vs Goku. This complicates things for me.

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Ok I had missed that logo.

SwiftyDC posted...

Dragon Ball FighterZ is better than those games though. And Id take Mortal Kombat 11 over Rocket League just on name alone.

It might be better, but we know it's not about being the better game!

And a brand name like Mortal Kombat is a bit different. I just don't think the name Dragon Ball is enough on its own to win a match against a game people probably know. Batman and Spider-Man can be popular here because their games fit the GameFAQs brand. I don't know if Dragon Ball qualifies.

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Rocket League's also pretty innocent as far as casual games go. Like it doesn't get the level of hate as things like Fortnite or Hearthstone.

I think anyone who played it and enjoyed it even a little will likely vote it over Dragon Ball. Even if they enjoy the brand.

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https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7462-best-of-2018-playstation-4

just to give you an idea of the difference between Spider-Man and Dragon Ball

(it also got less than Assassin's Creed Odyssey in the Xbone poll)

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Finally listened to (mostly) all of this. Still need to hear D7 and D8 but I'm in front of a computer now.

D1: I have LIS. Don't sleep on HK -- it's a 4 seed for a reason, and maybe I'm foolish, but I have it over FF15. Very reluctant over the bottom half since I know nothing about DQ11.
D2: dat top option. Across the board.
D3: I feel uncomfortable here. You convinced me to flip on UT/SK. I still want to take Minecraft over Spidey. I'm also playing with the notion of Odyssey over Smash, which is only a 24 point swing in the bracket. Such a huge gamble.
D4: Total minefield. I took Ori over DA:I.
D5: Straight chalk, except my upset special of Dishonored over Dark Souls III. I'm probably going down with the ship on that one.
D6: Meat Boy over Sonic, AC > Civ (as a Civ fan), Portal 2 to the finals. I'm definitely not a Persona fan, but I'm reluctantly taking it out of the bracket.

And although I didn't get to the D8 discussion yet, yes, I did switch my MK8 pick even though MK8 has sold over 20 million copies on the Switch, way ahead of any other game. I dunno. I might go back. I look forward to hearing the D8 commentary so I can hear Leon tell me how stupid I'm being.


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LeonhartFour posted...

If Rocket League were a traditional sports game like Madden, I would agree with you.

To be fair, there is a solid argument to be had that Rocket League transcended its genre, much like Smash for fighting games. Rocket League is certainly the definitive sports game of the decade in the mainstream, and probably on GameFAQs too, but such a title is utterly irrelevant here.

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Pic factor.

I suppose I buried this point in the somewhat lengthy wall of text I wrote about Rocket League vs Dragon Ball FighterZ, but yes, this was and is also my main argument. I think there's going to be a lot of "who cares?" votes in a match between two multiplayer-oriented games that don't have very high playrates and aren't truly beloved here, especially if forced voting in every single match on a given day returns. Yes, Rocket League will get some of them thanks to what will likely be a significant bracket advantage, but I anticipate that large and in charge Super Saiyan Goku being a much bigger draw than a small Back to the Future logo.

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And DeLoreon.

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