Current Events > Lady on NPR said #metoo caused backlash for Women.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Host of show asked her about its impact on harassment.
She said it seems to have very slightly reduced harassment.

But she said one effect she has been seeing in the data is men afraid to travel with women, afraid to mentor women one on one, being around them like walking on eggshells etc.
This she called huge backlash.

If you're afraid to travel with or mentor women because you think your behaviour might be perceived as sexual harassment then it's not women that are the problem

Was she terminated or sent to re-education for such an embarrassing faux pas?

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Malfunction posted...

If you're afraid to travel with or mentor women because you think your behaviour might be perceived as sexual harassment then it's not women that are the problem

Of course theyre not the problem. But thats perception that people see it as now, which is the problem. What used to be seen as normal behavior is now seen predatory due to some crazy folks

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darkprince45 posted...

What used to be seen as normal behavior is now seen predatory due to some crazy folks

Maybe predatory things were once seen as normal due to some crazy folks

Malfunction posted...

If you're afraid to travel with or mentor women because you think your behaviour might be perceived as sexual harassment then it's not women that are the problem

I agree that men should have self-control. Not sure I agree that a person who knows they lack it, avoiding situations that will tempt them, is bad however.

Malfunction posted...

Maybe predatory things were once seen as normal due to some crazy folks

Sure I agree. But Were talking about the things in this topic, which arent predatory at all

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darkprince45 posted...

Sure I agree. But Were talking about the things in this topic, which arent predatory at all

These are situations in which predatory behavior is more likely to happen.

darkphoenix181 posted...

I agree that men should have self-control. Not sure I agree that a person who knows they lack it, avoiding situations that will tempt them, is bad however.

What a strange string of words

darkphoenix181 posted...

I agree that men should have self-control. Not sure I agree that a person who knows they lack it, avoiding situations that will tempt them, is bad however.

What a creepy post.
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Not for nothing but if you're stuck with someone of the opposite gender that you don't know, then you're not really going to know how they're going to react to certain things.

Not to mention that some members of the opposite gender will accuse you of things, just to acquire pity or gain the favor of other coworkers, or to tarnish your reputation within the company.

That's not to say that everybody is out to do that, but you can see how a massive movement like #metoo might make male coworkers wary of having any kind of interaction with a female coworker, outside of strictly professional interactions in a public work environment.

It's fucked up six ways from Sunday but still.

Malfunction posted...

What a strange string of words

Lol, doing your gimmick again.

Were you not aware that even without metoo many married men avoided these kinda situations regardless?
It helps keep the wife from worrying too much but also is a preventative measure because people are human. Maybe not in regards to harassment but mutual attraction which would be cheating on the wife.

i read about this a while back

a lot of men basically began to avoid situations where any kind of harassment allegations could arise

i've also read posts on other sites by users alleging that their employers also began to indulge in covert forms of hiring discrimination in response

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DeadBankerDream posted...

What a creepy post.

Says the guy with a sig about his dick causing women to shudder.

darkphoenix181 posted...

Says the guy with a sig about his dick causing women to shudder.

Swing and a miss.
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DeadBankerDream posted...

Swing and a miss.

Even if it's a lyric from a song or a quote from a book

if you said that to a female coworker, you could be #metoo'd

and that's what men are worried about. Saying something that could be completely innocuous in a given context but because somebody has an axe to grind for whatever reason, they'll take your words, your actions, and whatever else they can out of context and use them to bring you down (a peg, at least).

DeadBankerDream posted...

What a creepy post.

He sure hasn't reacted well to being called out on it!

Apparently this type of behaviour has a name. I didn't know this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_rule

The Billy Graham rule is a practice among some male evangelical Protestant leaders, in which they avoid spending time alone with women to whom they are not married. It is adopted as a display of integrity, a means of avoiding sexual temptation, to avoid any appearance of doing something considered morally objectionable, and to avoid being accused of sexual harassment or assault.
The rule has been named after Billy Graham, who was one of the early proponents of the practice. More recently, it has also been called the Mike Pence rule, after a US Vice President who also supported the idea.[1]

what even is being argued in this topic?

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darkphoenix181 posted...

But she said one effect she has been seeing in the data is men afraid to travel with women, afraid to mentor women one on one, being around them like walking on eggshells etc.
This she called huge backlash.

thats so snowflake.

calling that "backlash" is literally wrong; on its basic definition this is wrong.

and you wanted men to be more caution and careful, this is what you get.

dolomedes posted...

ffs

Hey, welcome to 2020, shit's kinda fucked yo

It is wild watching, simultaneously,
1) people in topics like this act like accusations of harassment are a career-ending, life ruining thing
2) Michael Bloomberg rise in the polls as he bids to replace Donald Trump as president.
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seems like the fear is that a woman men don't know well would abuse the social power inherent in being trusted as a weapon, ie maliciously false accusations, not that well-meaning behavior will come across as predatory

which i can certainly understand since i fear that men i don't know well would abuse their physical power as a weapon against me--not that my well-meaning behavior comes across as inviting abuse (not that this stops some men from making that claim)

nobody who abuses power is thinking about the potential consequences.

maybe it's good for men to be afraid in this way. if nothing else because it will help them understand that just as they meant well, female victims didn't ask for it

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dolomedes posted...

i think you misinterpreted my post.

let's just say i'm disagreeing with you.

You can disagree but it's entirely possible.

I've worked in environments where if you make a sexual joke to a coworker, and another coworker hears that joke from the other side of a corner or wall, they can report you both and get you both in hot water. It's reality. It's shitty that people that sensitive can wield the power to end careers and jobs, but that's the current reality.

the thing about reporting to HR is that HR isn't there to protect you. it's there to protect the company.

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my organization is too small to have any real HR people, it sucks a big fat one

I know that there's been a lot of turnover due to the sexism and racism in leadership, but there's no way to do anything about it when the executive director is overseen by a board that he largely gets to pick

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dolomedes posted...

you've worked in an environment in which someone can report feeling uncomfortable with inappropriate conversations in a shared work space? well, good...

i have a co-worker who has been written up for just what you described - making explicit jokes within earshot of another worker who discussed it with management. he has since been 'talked to' numerous times about the same thing: being vulgar about/with/to female employees. that's it.

If it's a repeated pattern, then perhaps he should be let go.

However, don't be surprised when male workers refuse to associate or work with female co-workers when anything they say, even if it wasn't meant for the female co-workers ears, can be used against them under the guise of it being 'offensive'.

Yes, some jokes are beyond the pale deserve to be reported. Some behaviors, especially chronic, deserve to be reported.

But if John is talking to Jim and says "Man, sometimes I forget how nice ScarJo's tits are" and Sally comes up and hears that and reports it...

don't be surprised if nobody wants to work with Sally.

I mean I dont want to hear that kinda shit at work either.

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yeah i dont think i would want to work with john

and i'd wonder why jim puts up with it

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Balrog0 posted...

I mean I dont want to hear that kinda shit at work either.

and that's fine. If it really bothers you, address it to those coworkers. "Hey, I'm not really trying to hear that here." but also be aware, if you walk in on a seemingly private conversation, you might hear things you didn't want to. Now if they're yelling this kind of stuff across the work site, then yeah you're not exactly wrong for calling them out.

why do conversations you can overhear accidentally count as private

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Balrog0 posted...

what even is being argued in this topic?

People arguing what it means that mean try the Billy Graham rules as above.

1. Malfunction suggests this means these men are a problem. What is the implication of this? Fire them all idk.

2. I suggested if people think something will tempt them, maybe it isn't the worst thing for them to avoid such a situation. I mean, if these men have a problem (which I agree they do funnily enough), it won't go away overnight. Users attacked me because how dare I! Ahhh

How dare I what? I don't even know.

3. Darkprince is suggesting men aren't the problem and they just trying to avoid being falsely accused.

I don't see the issue. If neither sex feels truly comfortable around one another, they shouldn't be forced to spend time together alone.

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Ultima Dragon posted...

I don't see the issue. If neither sex feels truly comfortable around one another, they shouldn't be forced to spend time together alone.

Well if too many men do this, women get discluded and likely lose promotions. This is assuming of course that the big wigs are men.

Odoylerules posted...

and you wanted men to be more caution and careful, this is what you get.

The idea of metoo is not to have men be more cautious or careful, but to bring awareness to the harassment that is done to have it hopefully end and be punished.

dolomedes posted...

yeah if you're a woman you can just tell the male bro-workers talking about celebrity boobs that their conversation is inappropriate

yeah that'll go over well. they'll be v receptive

That's why there's (anonymous) programs that allow you to submit complaints, if you know that your in-person criticisms won't be taken seriously

given your company is large enough or sophisticated enough to have those programs

Office backstabbing can be incredibly ugly. I'm absolutely astonished that there are people here claiming that the only reason a man would be afraid to be alone with a woman is because he can't control himself, or that it might be good for men to feel uncomfortable about the idea to see how it feels. Most men aren't abusers and never will be. Anyone who thinks this behavior is paranoid apparently has yet to encounter a ladder climber with a personality disorder in their career.

dolomedes posted...

that was a response to your suggestion that the people be approached directly lol

I also assumed, perhaps wrongly, that balrog is a male, who might not feel intimidated to tactfully call out his coworkers.

I can fully understand women feeling intimated about calling out male coworkers